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This year Yom HaZikaron for all those who fell in Israeli Wars and/or the victims of terror is being commemorated this year on Monday 5 Iyar (pushed off from today 4 Iyar).
Isn’t it very interesting that on the same day that Israel will be commemorating Yom HAZikaron in mourning, the Neturei Karta will also be in mourning?
Two groups of Jews who are ideologically oppossed – mourning on the same day!!!
gr8: I don’t know about NK, but Satmar in Eretz Yisrael says their Kinnos on Tuesday, not Monday. It’s the one thing they hold of the Israeli government for (sarcasm, sort of).
If someone wanted to annoy both the zionists and the anti-zionists, you could observe the Israeli memorial day (for those who were killed in the zionist wars) by learning mishnayos (the traditional Jewish way honoring the dead). They would greatly annoy the zionists, who prefer more western style militaristic methods of observance, and also the anti-zionists, who prefer to ignore the zionists.
akuperma – you are way off. The zionists would be very happy for you to acknowledge the value of the neshamos that were lost and saying mishnayos would be just fine. Those who don’t have an understanding of the value of mishnayos have turned to traditional ways for lack of anything else to do.
Syag:
akuperma is correct (and you are the one who is “way off”).
As has been mentioned on these boards many times, and as recognized by our gedolim from way before 1948 through today, the goal of Zionism was and is to create a new “goy” Hebrew, Land/Nation-based, nation to replace the traditional, Torah-based, Jewish nation.
Syag, agreed.
I think most secular, not-yet-religious, Israelis would be happy and comforted to know that something spiritually significant was being done in memory of their loved ones, even if they’re (sadly) not familiar with learning Mishnayos. Not to mention the many religious families who mourn relatives on this day, who would surely appreciate it.
HaKatan – in your world, you are correct. In real life, however, the secular Israelis would be very happy and comforted.
I don’t know who’s right, but that was a very sharp response by Syag.
thank you for your biased response. apparently you slept thru the first few.
Biased about what? I didn’t really express an opinion about Yom Hazikaron and how the secular would perceive Mishnayos. Probably some would appreciate it, and some wouldn’t.
I was addressing your response to Hakatan. It was clever.
At the same time, you probably could have expressed your disagreement without challenging his sense of reality.
Biased towards people with that view point.
I know you were.
I wasn’t challenging his sense of reality, I was challenging his viewpoint of reality. And I find your defense somewhat humorous, if I may politely say so.
Biased towards people with that view point.
I know you were.
I suppose we can continue to debate my intent, but there’s really no point.
I wasn’t challenging his sense of reality, I was challenging his viewpoint of reality.
What does “viewpoint of reality” mean? If you simply disagree, you could have just said, “Hakatan, I (dare I insert the word respectfully?) disagree with you. I think that (the vast majority of?) most secular people would appreciate Mishnayos”.
And I find your defense somewhat humorous, if I may politely say so.
I think you must be misunderstanding me, because I am being serious.
how much do I owe you for the assessment?
More than you can afford, based on the shadchan thread. 🙂
So I’ll be mochel. 🙂
I’ll send you a candy dish
It always blows my mind when I hear people say things like ” those Zionists have a plan to strip this country of all things Jewish…” or “They hate Torah” “all of our gedolim say…” seems like lots of people are just living in a delusional sense of reality. creats a big chillul Hashem too by the way. May Hashem comfort all the mourners of Zion.
Just as this Yom haZikoron gets manipulated to be kept away from Shabbos, I wish the other Yom haZikoron would also be manipulated to be kept away from Shabbos, so that Tekias Shofor would never be suppressed.
Needless to say, I was so busy with Yom haZikoron, that I totally forgot about BaHaB; But anyways I wasn’t working Chol haMoed, so do I really require BaHaB.
Wishing everyone:- Yom haAtzma’ut Sameach.
Syag:
As Jews, the Torah IS real life. And most Zionists (not “RZ”), who don’t even know what mishnayos are, would not likely be comforted.
Leah Rabin’s line comes to mind, how she would rather her kids be Arab than Chareidi.
And most Zionists (not “RZ”), who don’t even know what mishnayos are, would not likely be comforted.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that this statement is incorrect and I am not sure it is not terrible motzei shem ra. Although Leah Rabin would rather her kids be an arab, that is a painfully far leap from saying secular israelis would not be comforted by frum yidden saying mishnayos for their fallen.
Syag:
I did not mean to imply that your typical Israeli off the street is Leah Rabin and a “hater”. Not at all. But if they don’t even know what Mishnayos are, and have been taught that, in Ben-Gurion’s words, “Religion is the historical misfortune of the Jewish people”, what nechama could they possibly derive from someone learning mishnayos, assuming they could even tolerate the very thought of it?
To clarify further, if, someone offered to perform some religious act that, in your mind, is totally opposite what you were taught: would that gesture have any meaning to you? I don’t see how it would.
Might you appreciate the gesture just because it was offered, or just for the solidarity? Depending on the person, perhaps it would. But that’s a far cry from claiming it would bring nechama to them.
And akuperma is still quite correct that any Zionist worthy of the name would abhor this “galut stuff”.
HaKatan – I aways assumed that you were thorough in your facts toward your hashkafos even if I was uncomfortable with your presentation, and your reasoning for posting was something I could relate to. But for you to insist that you are correct about the secular mentality toward mishnayos for their dead ONLY because of suppositions and inferential thinking, even at the risk of motzei shem ra, and even though allowing that concept to stand would NOT be a chillul Hashem,then I am forced to question the validity and motive behind the other words as well. I’m sorry.
Syag:
Again, countless gedolim have said that Zionism is shmad. Even with whatever limited emunas chachamim I do have, I believe them on that.
Regarding this instance, too, I have tried to set the reality in light of the gedolim’s words and the little knowledge of my own. If you feel I have erred factually, please let me know.
Let us be clear: for someone who was brainwashed, to hate something, as part of their very identity, would you expect them to have any sort of good feelings towards any of that?
I welcome your response.
as you continue to insist bad things about a group of people based on conjecture when someone who lives among them has told you it may very well be motzei shem ra-
and since the threat of being oiver on something so serious does not scare you because you are more comfortable relying on your conjecture than believing you could possibly be wrong (when you should shake at the possibility of slander) –
I have to say I am very uncomfortable engaging in this conversation with you.
I continue to wish you well.
the zionism of 60 years ago is dead. it does not exist any longer.
Syag:
First, as I mentioned earlier, I did not “insist bad things” about anyone.
Just because Zionism is shmad and your typical Israeli goes through that system, that does not make, and I did not say that, your typical Israeli is, CH”V, a bad person. I don’t see the L”H issue: I did not blame them for anything.
I asked you a simple question which you haven’t answered:
“Let us be clear: for someone who was brainwashed, to hate something, as part of their very identity, would you expect them to have any sort of good feelings towards any of that?”
But I am anyways willing to concede the possibility that your typical Israeli off-the-street might appreciate mishnayos being learned for them, regardless. It’s not relevant.
But akuperma’s post, in my understanding, which is what started this, is correct, as he was referring to the real Zionists, not the man-off-the-street. On this, there can be no question.
I certainly wish you the same.
HaKatan: Oh good, you admit there’s a difference between a “real Zionist” and a person off the street. Now can you admit that “real secular Zionists” no longer exist?
A more apropros question. todays talmidim of the gedolim of 60 years ago who he cites, what do they say about todays “zionists” or as they have now been rebranded “the man in the street”. Are thhey meshumadim? Are they following “the avoda zara of zionism”? What do these gedolim say one should do on yom hazikaron, while standing in a public place, during the siren? These are questions pertinent to those alive now. Not how to address a movement of 60 years ago that no longer exists.
HaKatan: You asked, “Let us be clear: for someone who was brainwashed, to hate something, as part of their very identity, would you expect them to have any sort of good feelings towards any of that?”
That’s actually really funny, coming from you!
Sam2:
That would be contrary to basic logic and daas Torah (not to mention current events). Just for example, Rav Meshulam Dovid Soloveichik, son of the Brisker Rav, recently spoke a few times on this topic and was rather clear that there is no such distinction that you wish to make.
DaMoshe:
I don’t see why it’s funny, though I thank you (hakaras haTov) for your back-handed but far too kind compliment that being a Torah Jew is part of my identity (unlike MO/”RZ”‘s identity of “Religion mixed with A”Z” or “A sea of heresy with a drop of Torah mixed in”, etc. depending on the gadol you “ask”).
Well, we found a point of agreement between Hakatan and DaMoshe. They both hold that anyone who disagrees with them must have been brainwashed.
“Well, we found a point of agreement between Hakatan and DaMoshe.”
Surely this is the aschalta digeula!
DY: No, I don’t hold that. I was speaking specifically about HaKatan. You and I disagree about plenty of things, yet I don’t think you’re brainwashed.
OK, may I ask what is the difference?
The difference is that you’re willing to acknowledge that other opinions can be valid, even if they’re not the opinions which you follow.
DY – I am wondering if you are aware that sometimes people are trying to make a valid point and then your taking a line or two out of context like that mocks their effort. Is that intentional?
DaMoshe, I don’t think that’s a function of brainwashing or not brainwashing.
Syag, the taking a line out of context, yes. The mocking, no.
DaMoshe, for the record, I’m just trying to make a point that I think the term “brainwashed” is much misused, but not ch”v trying to mock you.
After reading the CR for the past week, I think my brain really needs a good washing to get rid of all this bickering.
or go see our favorite therapist
DY – brainwashing was not his word, it was HaKatan’s, which is why it needed to be used in context. Why not comment to HaKatan about his use of it instead? Sometimes it isn’t crucial to split hairs on the verbiage if there is a clear point being made.
It is similar, in my eyes, to that one student who pipes up during a lecture with a comment that makes everyone laugh and ruins the Rebbes opportunity to bring out a point to the class.
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