Yom Hashoah, any thoughts?

That’s a nice trick. Qualifying as a moser or rodef because they espouse an opinion that is different than yours.

Do not repost comments which have been repeatedly deleted.

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DY – you wrote ” the Zionists theme of Kochi veotzem yodi” So you were indeed talking about Zionists rather than Zionism.

But lets assume it was an honest error.

I disagree completely, but I hear where you could look at Zionism from an angle that could be contrived to be described as Kochi… but even in the poetic dreamings of the early Zionists, it was a matter of will to accomplish in the future (for example, im tirzu, ein zo agada) , rather than “see what I have done” in the past, which is what Kochi is about. Once Zionism translated from an articulated dream into a reality that needed to be fought for, it is my opinion, derived from talking to the people who actually fought for it, that any vestige of Kochi…, if there even was one to begin with, went straight out the window as the miracles of Israel’s victories were revealed.

I submit that it is simpler, more logical, and more in line with how Zionism is articulated today, and for several decades, if not most of a century, that for those Zionists who are not motivated as Religious Zionists are, it is much more a matter of “ein somchin al hanes, but we will embrace what is given,” than it is of Kochi…

I am not going to enter into this controversy because the ones who oppose Yom Hashoah will not change their minds and the ones who respect that day will continue to commemorate it. Just two facts to correct some of the posters: Tisha be’av and Tsom gedalyah were not just instituted by chazal, it is by the novi (tsom harevi-i, hachamishi,etc) so it is divrei nevi-im that we must observe. The aveilus from Rabbi Akiva’s talmidim started in the geonim’s times (check your halacha)and clearly, there were days that were instituted to remember catastrophes (20 sivsan is just one example). And that was quite a while after the gemoro.

But my question to the opponents is more fundamental; they keep on saying that any commemoration should have been done on tisha be’av. Fair enough. So, tell me ,dear posters, do you say the “kinos’ that were made specially for the Holocaust? I suspect that most of you do not say it- thereby proving that you really do not want ANY commemoration. And that, I think, is truly sad.

So, tell me ,dear posters, do you say the “kinos’ that were made specially for the Holocaust? I suspect that most of you do not say it- thereby proving that you really do not want ANY commemoration. And that, I think, is truly sad.

Of course I say the special holocaust kinoses every Tisha B’Av. And every shul I’ve ever davened in on Tisha B’Av, both in the city and upstate, has said it. I’ve never been to a shul that skipped it.

ROB, it seems your belief in the idolatry of Zionism has now caused you to also be motzi laaz on the rest of Klal Yisrael.

Those kinos are not skipped, as far as I know.

But the lies and treachery of Zionism regarding the Holocaust (which the Zionists have some chutzpah to commemorate given this involvement) is certainly well-hidden and glossed over (unless you research online).

DY – you wrote ” the Zionists theme of Kochi veotzem yodi” So you were indeed talking about Zionists rather than Zionism.

I distinguish between those Zionists who ascribe to the Zionist theme of kv”y and those who try not to. I believe that all Zionists are in error for associating with Zionism.

I am also not merely repeating what I have been “conditioned” to believe, I have seen too much pride in the strength of the Israeli armed forces to deny this theme’s existence.

BTW, where does it say it’s assur to have pride in one’s army? Being proud of your success does not mean that you think KAY.

DY: One does not have to believe in the same thing that the Secular Zionists did in order to thank HKBH on days like Yom Ha’atzma’ut and Yom Yerushalayim or to commemorate the Holocaust on the day that they chose. I personally think they chose the wrong day. That doesn’t mean that I should grossly disrespect those who died and survived by trumpeting my disagreement with the seculars on this issue.

And even though the name in Israel is about Gevurah, if you were ever in any Dati Le’umi or “Modern Orthodox” day school, you’d know that the entire day is somber and about the deceased and the survivors, not about the fighting.

Oh look, we found an account created less than 10 minutes ago accusing me of something in the past. Interesting, OOM, I think we need an official troll call here.

There is a massive difference there. If the Karaites started celebrating Purim would we stop? It happens that not-Frum people celebrate a Yeshua from HKBH. Why should that stop the rest of us? Can you tell me, by the way, what propaganda I ever used against Chareidim?

Sam2: Except here it is the “Karaites” who formulated and created and assigned this date. So it is more akin to the Good Friday analogy. And first show us where HaKatan ever quoted anti-semites, as you falsely accused.

That doesn’t mean that I should grossly disrespect those who died and survived by trumpeting my disagreement with the seculars on this issue.

I agree with that. As I wrote, I am appalled at the possibility that some severely “misguided” (to use a too forgiving term) individuals made a BBQ davka on Yom Hashoah, davka near Yad Vashem.

Yes, I believe that is true. If the focus was on the “gevurah”, I would rethink trumpeting my disagreement.

But the choice of dates still has a treif’e mekor.

DY: I agree that the choice of dates has a bad Makor. But it’s not a celebration. It’s a random date to commemorate. And the date could have been worse. My point is that we do more of a misservice than a service by fighting it. And the other two, which are celebrations, are based on historical events. Those were Yeshuos from HKBH, and the fact that seculars celebrate it also doesn’t detract from that.

Ummm, no. The third link, the one quoting the Barnes review. That article was authored by a vicious anti-Semite who claims we run the mafias and militaries of the world.

GAW- yup, I would imagine that in Bobov (wonder which one, though) says it. In some ways, it proves my point. R”Shlomo Halberstam zz’l. who lost his wife, his father and numerous familt members in the Holocaust understood the need for the “kinah”. The ones who decied not to say it-many of them,espcially in Israel- never were part of the Holocaust.

The Yom Hashoa BBQ has been debunked in the secular media as Anti-Charedi incitement

Thank you for that info, ZD.

DY: And that’s fine. I don’t think anyone accuses Chareidim of not caring about the Holocaust (except those very few who go shake hands with deniers like the Chilariyah in Iran). I think they (not so wrongly) accuse many of being grossly unsympathetic by making Yom HaShoah more of a political statement than it should be.

The ‘Joseph’s new screen-names’ count for the last few days is now up to 8. Just so’s the olam are aware…

I think he’s third, after failedjew and nonorthodox.