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Holocaust Remembrance Day is a national holiday in “Israel”, one replete with official ceremonies which are, of course, sufficiently solemn. “Never again!” is liberally sprinkled like confetti at a parade. Officials stand by with folded hands at memorial sites looking, again, sufficiently solemn.
In truth, “standing by with folded hands” is precisely what the nascent State of “Israel’s” first leaders did before, during and after the dark years of World War II. The only difference is that then they weren’t passively standing at memorials, they were accomplices at crime scenes.
Yom HaShoah is, at best, a limp attempt at salving the collective guilty conscious of the Zionist Establishment and, at worst, a blatant and cumbersome piece of propaganda. Someone must have forgotten to tell the “Israeli” government. Fiction needs to be plausible.
Though pontificating might somehow satisfy this writer’s outrage at “Israel’s” presumption to commemorate the suffering of European Jewry, their own words should be adequate condemnation.
American rabbi Abraham Jacobson once said,
“’How many times have we heard the impious wish uttered in despair over the apathy of American Jews to Zionism that a Hitler descend upon them? Then they would realize the need for Palestine.”
(New Palestine. Abraham Jacobson)When the only way to convince someone of your political views is mass murder by proxy, you’re on very shaky ground indeed.
“Israel’s” first president, Chaim Weizmann, sympathized (so to speak),
“The only dignified and really effective reply to all that is being inflicted upon the Jews of Germany is the edifice erected by our great and beautiful work in the land of Israel.”
(Weizmann – Last of the Patriarchs, p. 182)Considering saving the Jews of Germany and other European countries was apparently neither dignified nor effective.
Perhaps one of the most unabashed statements was made by Enzo Sereni, a World War II era, prominent Italian Zionist and co-founder of Kibbutz Givat Brenner.
“We have nothing to be ashamed of in the fact that we used persecution of the Jews in Germany for upbuilding of Palestine.”
(Zionism Today)Rabbi Michoel Ber Weissmandel, of blessed memory, a Slovakian rabbi who almost single-handedly saved thousands of Jews during the Holocaust, wrote a letter in 1942(?) to the Jewish Agency in Switzerland pleading for money to stop transports of Czech Jewry to the gas chambers in Auschwitz. Nathan Schwalb, then serving as the Agency’s representative in Zurich, had this to say:
“As to the cry that comes from your country, we must be aware that all the nations of the Allies are spilling much blood and if we do not bring sacrifices, with what will we achieve the right to sit at the table when they make the distribution of nations and territories after the war? And so it would be foolish and impertinent on our side to ask the nations whose blood is being spilled for permission to send money into the land of their enemies in order to protect our own blood. Because only through blood will the land be ours. As to yourselves – members of the group – you will get out, and for this purpose we are providing you with funds by this courier.”
The Temple of Zionism requires “sacrifices” be brought to its altar.
In 1948, Rabbi Weissmandel published his “10 Questions to The Zionists”. Below are his questions.
1. IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:
a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and
b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and
c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.2. IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.
3. IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:
a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.
b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a “Jewish State” at the end of the war.
c) No ransom will be paid.4. IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo’s offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.
5. IS IT TRUE that in 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved.
6. IS IT TRUE that the same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).
7. IS IT TRUE that during the height of the killings in the war, 270 Members of the British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany.
8. IS IT TRUE that this offer was rejected by the Zionist leaders with the observation “Only to Palestine!”
9. IS IT TRUE that the British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The “Jewish Agency” leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed.
10. IS IT TRUE that during the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weizmann, the first “Jewish statesman” stated:
“The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important.”
Weizmann’s cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation,
“One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe”.
This is an Anti-Zionist fraud. There was not much that the Zionists in EY could do. They had almost no money and were stymied by British and American obstructionism. In a few cases they were able to smuggle fighters into Europe and they did manage to save some Jews. There were even Zionist spies disguised as SS men (they had grown up in Germany and Austria and thus spoken fluent German).
As for the Nazi attitude, Himmler’s letter to the Mufti has recently been uncovered. You can see it on-line.
The thread title alone is very charged.
What’s the motive of this thread? To accuse Jews of murdering their people?
Am I the only one who is insulted and feels like right away it comes across disrespecting the lives and memories of our families who perished in the Shoah?
Why is this thread here?
The OP says “…after the dark years of World War II. The only difference is that then they weren’t passively standing at memorials, they were accomplices at crime scenes.”
*******
He said that the Jews who helped build Israel were “accomplices at crime scenes”?!
Okay it is more complicated than the presented facts and isn’t that in itself lashon hara and a hurtful accusation in itself?
The idea that the Nazis would take money for jews was unfortunatly a false one.
When you give a bribe to someone the person is supposed to do what you want, no matter what the law is. However the Nazis when they took bribes ostensibly to save a jew, they frequently killed the jew anyway or waiting a short time and killed that person. It was not a Bribe, but rather theft. Meaning they were trying to steal money from the jews to pay for the war. Especially in 1944 when the Nazis were almost bankrupt and losing the war. They needed money and supplies to continue to fight. They had no intention of saving Hungarian Jewery, but they had every intention of trying to steal money from the only jews who had any left (American Jewery) to continue the war.
Spain was not a destination for jews in 1939. Spain fought a brutal civil war in the 1930’s and was in ruins. They were in no position to take huge chunks of refugees at that time. Go do some research on the Spanish Civil War before making any claims Spain could take lots of refugees.
lightbrite
As you may by now know there is a wide spectrum of beleif/practice within jewry. similarly their is a wide spectrum of brain function. Sadly some Jews are simply not so right in the head. They are so driven by their hatred of others that they will lie misrepresent and misconstrue to demonize the other. (note: he would say the same about me) Dont let this color your perception of all Jews or even all right wing/”ultra-orthodox” Jews.
Just to point out the ridiculousness of the post. Take a step back and ask yourself, for arguments sake lets say the post were true, what does that have to do with Yom Hashoah today? Ok so for arguments sake the Zionists were all bad (note: this too doesn’t follow from the OP) What does that change whether appropriate to commemorate the Shoah?
the answer is it doesn’t. and KJ knows it. but it does allow him to post vile untruths about Jews he doesn’t like.
As to your questions:
“What’s the motive of this thread?”
This one you answered: ” To accuse Jews of murdering their people”“m I the only one who is insulted and feels like right away it comes across disrespecting the lives and memories of our families who perished in the Shoah?”
No most readers here are“Why is this thread here?”
this one I’m not fully sure, I guess to show how silly people can be?
Of course it is appropriate to commemorate the Holocaust. But it is inappropriate to make the day in Nissan the secular anti-religious Zionist government chose for that day in defiance of the rabbonim. This day the Zionists chose has no more relevance to Holocaust remembrance than Thanksgiving Day has to Holocaust remembrance.
During Nissan we mourn for the deaths of the students of Rabbi Akiva. Yom Hashoa already occurs during Sefirah
Ironic, some will rail against “the zionists” or against a secular holiday during sefira, yet remain silent in the face of the night club atmosphere that has become lag baomer in meron and uman.
While Zionism is a fraud (from a Torah perspective, since it claims to be based on Judaism and it isn’t), Yom Ha-Shoah is no worse than the rest of the movement. Jews traditionally honor the memories of those slain Al Kedushas ha-Shem at other times, but one can’t expect the zionists to participate in those since zionism doesn’t hold by Ha-Shem. Also the zionists need to make the holocaust seem special (as opposed to other widespread massacres) since it was much of the ideological basis the zionists used to convince the goyim to let them set up their medinah.
We have Tisha B’Av for this.
Akuperma, on the contrary, anti-Zionism is against Torah. Anti-Zionism is Spyism and Erev Ravism. The reason the Holocaust is deemed special is because it happened relatively recently and was methodical, as opposed to mob violence such as the Crusades and the pogroms, and ideological, as opposed to past slaughters, which accompanied wars of conquest or putting down of rebellions.
Ugh. The falsehood and hate fueling this OP has truly pained me. I’ll daven for the neshomah of the person who posted it. I fear he will need the tefilos.
I’d point out that though I disagree with Joseph’s perspective expressed here, I understand the perspective on doing the commemoration in Nisan, and see that it could be justified to criticize the timing of Yom Hashoah (though zahavasdad makes a cogent point), though I may not agree that it was done dafka l’hachis. I’m not be reactive simply to a differing perspective, just to the unfortunate sinah in the OP.
Let’s all daven for the elevation of the neshamoss of the kedoshim, every day, for the unity of am Yisroel, every day, and for the geulah to be completed, every day.
I’m probably not supposed to say this but, “IT WAS NOT ME WHO APPROVED THIS THREAD”
(sorry, just needed to put that out there)
Joseph
Have you heard of 20 Sivan? Erev Shabbos Parshas Chukas “Zos chukas Hatorah”?. google them. This idea that we dont mourn on other days aside from Tisha B’av is demonstrably false. As is the idea that we dont mourn during Nissan. (I am scratching my itchy face much like any avel as I type this)
I’m declaring the Third Day of Adar to be Holocaust Day every year. I’m sure ubiq would not dare disregard that date for this purpose.
There have been so many threads about Zionism, yom hashoa, yom haatzmaut, that you can almost predict word for word what each poster will write.
say you believe that zionists are evil and have committed the worst sins possible. or you believe that people who don’t recognize the miracle that is Israel and don’t immediately move there are forestalling the geula. everyone thinks that everyone else is the reason that moshiach has not yet come. Maybe we should stop the kitrug against other types of Jews, don’t we have enough against us already? Chazal tell us what will bring the geula- fixing the sin that led to the churban, sinas chinum. Is propogating sinas chinam davka during sefiras haomer a better way to commemorate?To the contrary… by having more people here, you’re keeping them out and away from protesting, counter-protesting, counter-counter-protesting, and…. in real life.
Joseph
Nu so keep the third day of Adar. Im not sure what you mean by “Dare disregard that date”This isnt a thread criticizing those who dont commemorate Yom Hashoah. We have many of thsoe, and I get why you dont commemorate and nowhere did I criticise you or anyone for “daring to disregard” it . see here for the real reason(s) http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hashoahany-thoughts#post-944571
ALl I am pointing out is these lines of yours ” We have Tisha B’Av for this.” “it is inappropriate to make the day in Nissan” Are atbest debatable if not outright incorrect.
ubi: I am not sure why you think Tisha B’av is an incorrect date to commemorate the shoah. After all, the Bobover Rebbe TZATZAL and Reb Schwab TZATZAL each wrote a kinah for it.
About 35 years ago I attended a Yom Hashoah talk given by Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis A”H and YBLCH her brother Rabbi Jungreis. I don’t know if Chaf Zayin Nissan is the appropriate. All I know is that it was an hour that I have never forgotten.
iacisrmma
Im sorry I didint mean it is incorrect. OF course it is.
I meant the idea that after the churban we dont have any other days/preiods of mourning is factually incorrectKJ this thread title isnt about Zionism
It is about an absurd chain of wrong ideas which do not lead one to naother:
some zionists were bad -> Zionism is bad -> Yom hashoah is bad.the logic in that chain is as sound as the anti-zionist logic you always espouse
Gestapo offers of ransom were not to be believed. They gathered 3000 Roman Jews and offered not to deport them in return for a huge payment. The payment was made and, surprise, the Nazis reneged and deported the Jews anyway
By the way kj, it wasn’t the Zionists who told the Jews to stay in eastern Europe when they had opportunities to leave before the US closed immigration in the 20’s
There are legitimate complaints to be had about Yom HaShoah (making it in Nissan, making it all about “Zionism is the answer” instead of just commemorating those who were murdered, etc).
But to accuse the Zionists of somehow being complicit in the Holocaust is ridiculous beyond words.
mw13, they were complicit. Zionist Rudolf Kastner, in the name of the Zionist Jewish Agency which he headed in Hungary, sold half a million Hungarian Jews to his friend Adolf Eichmann ym’s in return for a trainload of people to escape to Switzerland, who were mostly filled with his immediate and extended family and his colleagues in the Zionist Agency. In return, he withheld information from Hungarian Jewry that he knew Eichmann was shipping them to Aushwitz and not the work camps they were led to believe.
That was just one example.
Mod 29 – If one moderator approves a thread, can another moderator not take it down? I haven’t had time to read through everything here, but if you felt the need to make that declaration, you evidently wouldn’t have approved it yourself?
Joseph
The Shoah was known to Jewish leaders in Hungary in 1944, not just kasner. “Others” knew about it as well and did not tell their followers to resist at all costs if the Nazis came into Hungary. In fact some of these leaders threw out those who came to tell them what was happening in Poland
This thread is horrible. You want to pick on some Zionist things, go ahead. But the Holocaust? REALLY? What is wrong with you?!?!?
As for saving people – I don’t know what happened with Zionists. I do know of one person who told his followers NOT to accept the offer to help them escape from the Nazis, because the people who offered to help were Zionists. A short time after that, he abandoned his followers, and accepted help from a Zionist to save his own life. Most of his followers were killed.
The opening post is loaded with falsehoods. I am, frankly, surprised that YWN allowed this to be posted.
If one wanted to observe Yom HaShoah in a spiritual/ Torah way, like other days of tragedy are observed according to Jewish law and tradition, he would do so by fasting on this day. But in Nissan we are not supposed to be fasting. That already shows you how the invention of Yom HaShaoh is contrary to the spirit of the Torah, as we are unable to observe this day in the way that the Torah tells us to observe days of tragedy (erev Shabbos Chukas, Tisha Bav, etc.)
The original proposal was to have Yom Hashoah on the day of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which was erev Pesach. However, this “uprising” was against the Torah, as explained at length by the Gaon Rav Miller. (Look it up.)
However, this so-called “uprising” was against the Torah, as explained at length by the Gaon Rav Miller. (Look it up.) >
Rav Menachem Ziemba who was in the Ghetto during the uprising, gave his blessing. He was in the Ghetto during the uprising
Mod 29 – I have no particular opinion on this thread especially since I haven’t read it, but I’m just curious about your comment. I thought that even if one moderator approves a thread, another could close or delete it if they want to. I know that has happened before. Or is it more complicated than that?
Again, I have no opinion on the subject, but I’m just wondering about your comment.
Oh, I just saw that Yekke wrote the same thing. I guess great minds think alike.
LB – I didn’t really read the OP or most of the rest of this thread, but I do want to make sure that you are aware of something. Many Gedolim are against the commemoration of Yom HaShoah. I am not interested in getting into that right now or getting into an argument about it. I just want to make sure that you realize that they have many reasons for this, but disrespect for the victims of the holocaust is DEFINITELY not one of them!!!
Everyone agrees that the holocaust should be commemorated; the only question is when and how. I am not interested in getting into an argument with someone who wants to commemorate Yom Hashoah; I just want to make sure that when you come across those who don’t do so that you realize that it is not chas v’shalom out of a lack of respect for holocaust victims.
(Again, I don’t know what the OP wrote and this is not meant as an approbation of the specifics of his post).
ZD, in fact, RMZ financed the rebellion (they had to buy weapons from the Polish underground).
Like it or not, this was the day chosen and has been accepted. Asseret B’Tvet has not been accepted by the ganzer Velt for whatever reason. Trying to debate the day only makes you look like you are disrepecting the Shoah (Even if that is not their intention). Its during Sefeira anyway when you can mourn.
I’m not getting any into this argument but want to point out that Rabbi M.B. Weissmandel was a gaon in Torah and a Tzaddik emes. The 10 questions are apparently his, not the OP’s, so be careful when you try to tear it down. (The OP also should have mentioned that this is a copy/paste.)
Rabbi Weissmandel worked tirelessly to save whatever Yidden he could – and accomplished a lot – but was greatly stymied by the Reform and Zionists who didn’t value every Jewish life as an עולם מלא. With few exceptions, such as his cousin Gisi Fleischmann הי״ד who was Reform (see Wiki article about her) it was the less affluent, less connected and fewer Orthodox worldwide that were dedicated to saving Yidden.
And mentioning that Rabbonim discouraged European Yidden to leave for America in the 1920s when the reasons for leaving were mainly economic is unfair.
OP cut and paste his post from the Neuteri Karta website
Don’t have time to read the whole thing. But a number people here are confusing Hilchos Aveilus with establishing a Yom Hazikaron. There is no Yom Hazikaron in Nissan for Rabbi Akiva’s talmidim. Only a general (pretty light version of) aveilus; hence the beard stubble.
The taanis of 20 Sivan was established in those communities, and was not meant for Klal Yisroel as a whole. As are similar memorials such as 20 Tammuz in Telshe, events like 21 Kislev in Satmar in others. Any specific individual or community has a right if not obligation to mark its own personal tzaros and yeshuos for its own hisorerus. (See last Perek in Maseches Brachos.) One can (perhaps should) establish a fast when he has yahrtzeit for a parent, however that does not override issurei Taanis, such as Chodesh Nissan.
We do not make special azkaros for the entire nation except 9 Av. That cheapens the true azkara of the source of all our Tazros. All Tzaros are sourced in the big Golus for which we have Tisha B’av. See Rashi in Divrei Hayamim II perek 23 or so, on the possuk Vayekonen Yirmiyahu al Yoshiyahu.“We do not make special azkaros for the entire nation except 9 Av.”
OK so if we exclude Sefardim it would be ok?
I ouldnt have made it in Nissan if they asked for my vote but your distiction between aveilus and yom hazikaronn is contrived at best. Nobody is asking you to fast on yom hashoah.
This idea that choosing a day “cheapens the true azkara of the source of all our Tazros” is so silly. Nobody is saying to to mourn Tisha baav, On Tisha Baav we DO mourn all the tragedies that befell our people including the holocaust and fast and sit on the floor etc. But choosing another day to commemorate the recent holocaust that was above and beyond anything perpetrated in the past (if you dont understand why i’d be happy to explain this to you, often some confusion seems to stem from lack of understanding what made the holocaust unique)Mamale
“And mentioning that Rabbonim discouraged European Yidden to leave for America in the 1920s”
Sadly it was in the 30’s and 40’s too. Though I agree it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.KJ
“Also for those claiming this information shouldn’t be publicized because they don’t like what it says,”
Nobody claimed that. Like all your posts it is more lies and strawmen, please stop.LU
“Everyone agrees that the holocaust should be commemorated ”This isnt quite true
KJ Chusid
I also grew up believing most of the propaganda you do. I’m no Zionist today but as I go older I realized the propaganda is incorrect for the following reasons amongst many others (1) Even if your claims were true there was no collective Zionist vote on how to deal with these issues. It was a kept private decision of a few individuals. (2)Even in retrospect I can see the logic of not agreeing to Nazi ransom demands. To put it this can you give me a SINGLE time the Nazis DID keep their word when they said “Give us this and we’ll leave you alone” on a larger scale than a few individuals? (3)Even had the Zionist wanted to give in there is no way they could have come up with he money to do so (4) being that the Zionist were hardly alone in not helping fellow Jews ,There were non Zionist Jews that had a lot more money, influence and other ability to do so, your thinking seems to be based on issues with Zionists and Zionism rather than actual facts.
I know I won’t convince you so I’ll stop here and won’t post further on this thread
(1) There was no collective Nazi vote on genocide, either. Does that fact absolve most Nazis who didn’t vote for it from responsibility?
(2) Saving the lives of a ‘mere’ “few individuals” Jews is chopped liver?
(3) No one asked the Zionist for money. We only asked that they not stop others from savings Jews. Yet they actively interfered with saving European Jews.
(4) See (3).
(1)There was no collective Nazi vote but there was mass Nazi participation. It was not something only a few individuals were involved in or had a say about
(2)No. I never suggested that. I do not believe that had the ransom money been given to the Nazis they would have kept their word.(I’m unaware of anytime they kept their word with individuals either)
(3)I’ve seen those claims being made but with very little evidence. At most they quoted some Zionist as saying that they will be able to build their state because of the holocaust. Never in the context of “let’s make sure the Yiddin are killed so we can achieve that goal”
(4)Telling President Roosevelt not to meet with the Rabbis March, making efforts to sabotage the rescue work of Peter Bergson (a Zionist), trying to prevent food packages being smuggled to the European ghettos etc. is no better than what the Zionist are accused of. But since it was done by non or anti-Zionist who wanted to show what loyal American they were it is never mentioned by the anti zionist crowd
I will not respond further on this thread to anyone
That’s the second time you said you wouldn’t respond, and then did respond.
You haven’t seen the evidence? Just search this coffee room. It’s been provided numerous times. Evidence the Zionist actively and openly sabatoged efforts to rescue Jewish lives. And even worse, evidence the Zionists sold Jews to the Nazi gas chambers. Line head Hungarian Zionist Rudolf Kastner and his deals with his friend Nazi Adolf Eichmann. Eichmann himself said he could not have killed so many Hungarian Jews without Kastner help.
And read some more. The American Reform Jews who also sabatoged European Jewry rescue efforts have been severely denounced as well.
Ah! Finally a Zionist /anti Zionist discussion got this far without being closed down. Thanks 29 for keeping this place interesting enough to visit.
HaLeiVI, this is just practice for the inevitable 5 Sivan blowup…
smerel, +1
I’m no Zionist, but to try to blame the Zionists for the Holocaust is beyond ridiculous and reprehensible.
Don’t have time to read over everything. One point to keep in mind is that many if not most of those who perished in the holocaust were deeply religious Jews who wanted nothing other than for their children to continue in their derech. When the children reached Eretz Yisroel, most of them were denied any kind of religious education and to their great distress were not allowed to say Kaddish for their parents, and were even in many cases punished if they did manage somehow to say Kaddish. This is only a small part of how the children were forcibly secularized, even though they knew that their parents certainly wanted them to stay frum.
Most jews who were killed in the holocaust were NOT religious, that is a myth.
It is true jews who lived in the Shtels were religous, however many jews had moved to the bigger cities like Warsaw where religous jews were the minority.
There were TREIF restaurants in the Warsaw Ghetto
HaLeivi – Me? Don’t you mean the mod who *did* approve it?
I get a post not being accepted and not posted. I don’t get it going up and then coming down.
I don’t get it going up in the first place. Probably, whoever approved it did not understand the reference, and therefore did not realize that it was a disgusting, hateful comment about an Adam Gadol.
I’ll only say further that there are scholarly works which dispute the perspective of the OP, with primary sources and references. Apparently you’ll have to find them yourselves, because even referencing them without links is problematic. Oh, and there’s this. I hope the moderators are ok with the Novee Yoel.
וְהָיָה בַיּוֹם הַהוּא יִטְּפוּ הֶהָרִים עָסִיס, וְהַגְּבָעוֹת תֵּלַכְנָה חָלָב, וְכָל-אֲפִיקֵי יְהוּדָה, יֵלְכוּ מָיִם; וּמַעְיָן, מִבֵּית יְהוָה יֵצֵא, וְהִשְׁקָה, אֶת-נַחַל הַשִּׁטִּים
וִיהוּדָה, לְעוֹלָם תֵּשֵׁב; וִירוּשָׁלִַם, לְדוֹר וָדוֹרYoel, 4: 18, 20
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