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Can anyone explain the objective of having speeches in Yiddish at the siyum hashas for Daf yomi in America? If it is meant to be a unifying event to inspire and celebrate, how can they purposefully exclude such a large portion of the invitees and attendees? Isn’t that giving them a message that those who do not understand Yiddish are not welcome and don’t count? I assume nearly all of the attendees who do speak Yiddish also understand English very well.
Without Yiddish, how could you even consider this to be a Yiddishe event?
Yiddish is the language of Ashkenazic Jewry.
There are those who speak Yiddish that don’t know English well (or even at all.)
Yiddish is a unifying language for Jews from different countries and national languages (i.e. English, French, Ivrit, German, etc.)
Yiddish is our historical common tongue.
I think that Yiddish is an important Jewish language and the event is a Jewish event.
CTRebbe: Never “assume”. Those who are speaking may not know english. In 2005, The Novominsker spoke in english then said part of his drashah in simple yiddish. None of the preople around me complained.
A large percentage of Klal Yisroel, Bnei Torah, Orthodox Jews, speak Yiddish as their first language. Even if English is their second language since they live in the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, etc.
Certainly and indesputatably such a large percentage of Frum Yidden need to be accommodated by the Siyum HaShas. Especially given that they are a huge percentage of those who learn a daf a day and complete Shas on the seven year cycle. And that a large percentage of the Daf Yomi shiurim are given in Yiddish.
Not to even mention that the Daf Yomi was founded in Yiddish by Yiddish-speaking rabbonim.
What about Sephardim and Eidot haMizrach? Our common historical language is Hebrew. Yiddish is at most a creole German, maybe not even a language but a dialect. In fact, it was known as Jargon.
Ivrit is the State of Israel’s official language but Loshon Kodesh (which is another language) hasn’t been the common spoken language of Klal Yisroel in thousands of years. It’s only been our written (not spoken) language since the end of Bayis Rishon.
aaahhh, now I know! those “laz” words found in rashi are yiddish. thanks for the info. i should have known.
Avi K is right. Our common language is Hebrew. Why arent’t these rabbis speaking Hebrew? That is the most basic thing a rabbi should know. Forget Sephardim, he VAST majority of American Jews do NOT understand Yiddish.
Yiddish is a part of our collective fabric as a people it is true. But not unifying, not common. Just like Gerush Sfarad is part of our collective history even though not all Jews experienced it.
because that’s how they feer-zich at Siyumim they had in Europe.
As I recall, there were almost no Yiddish speeches at the last Siyum. I if recall there was one, maybe two. No offense to the OP, but there were many more people offended by the lack of Yiddish than those somehow “insulted” by one or two speeches.
Yabia Omer – I know that you believe that the “VAST majority of American Jews do NOT understand Yiddish”. This is a frum event in the NY area, and I would venture to say that the majority do understand Yiddish. Just simply add up all the people in Boro Park, Williamsburg, Monsey, Monroe, and the vast majority of Lakewood.
English cannot accommodate Yiddish speakers who are not fluent in English. Of which there are many. Even if some here hate that fact.
Be happy it is in both Yiddish AND English. This way everyone is accommodated. You should be applauding.
@Joseph
“Yiddish is the language of Ashkenazic Jewry.”
Wrong……………….
Yiddish WAS the common language linking much of Ashkenazic Jewry.
BUT it wasn’t the language of my maternal German forebears. My Oma always referred to Yiddish as a gutter language.
It wasn’t the language of much of Hungarian Jewry
My Litvish great grandparents and great great grandparents spoke Polish, Russian, Lithuanian and Yiddish.
My paternal grandparents born in NYC in the 1890s did not speak Yiddish. My father A”H born in Brooklyn 100 years ago and myself born in CT more than 65 years ago only learned Yiddish for business reasons. My siblings some as old as 75 do not speak Yiddish.“There are those who speak Yiddish that don’t know English well (or even at all.)”
If they live in the USA, it’s about time they learn to read, write and speak English. That sentiment does not apply just to Hispanics (as the right wing complains).“Yiddish is a unifying language for Jews from different countries and national languages (i.e. English, French, Ivrit, German, etc.)”
A completely meaningless point for an AMERICAN event. and as I’ve stated many times it is NOT a unifying language for German Jews. OMA never felt unified with the ‘peasants from the east’ who could not speak ‘real German’
My 70 year old sister went to seminary in Switzerland in the 1960s. Those girls who spoke Yiddish had a very hard time dealing with the locals, shopping, using transportation, banks, post office, etc. She learned German from our Great Grandmother and had no problem.
I learned Litvish Yiddish, I haven’t got a clue what most Galitzianers are saying when speaking Yiddish, especially when they substitute the P sound for B.My forbears chose to leave Europe for America 150 years ago. Our unity with fellow Jews was belief and practice, not Yiddish.
If you want to attend an event that has almost all speeches in Yiddish, fine, I would not enjoy it. I’d mail my contribution and not attend
The OP is on target. Once upon a time, in a shtetl far far away Yidish was the common Jewish language, the mamma loshon of European Jewry. For better of for worse most Yidden today neither speak it or understand it. It is true that in certain communities it is strongly propped up and succeeds in becoming a 2nd language to English in the US and to Ivrit in Israel.
Be that as it may, many of the Gedolim heard shiurim from their Rebbeim in Yiddish and spoke it in their homes it is therefore a language very much beloved to them. And what is beloved to the Gedolim is beloved to Klal Israel. I, for one, regret never having learned Yiddish. Many shiurim are available on Kol Lashon from some of our greatest luminaries, in Yiddish.
bp27 is absolutely correct. The majority do understand Yiddish, even if it is their second rather than first language.
a few points
1) Joseph’s first topic was most on point, vesu lo midi
2) “Our common language is Hebrew. Why arent’t these rabbis speaking Hebrew?”
Why is our common language Hebrew? and since when? I don’t speak Hebrew3) The OP asked “I assume nearly all of the attendees who do speak Yiddish also understand English very well.” you assume incorrectly. As you correctly note “t is meant to be a unifying event to inspire and celebrate”
Thus in order to INCLUDE (your word) Yiddish is added. There are not as many only Hebrew speakers at the US Siyum Hashas, if there where of course there would be languages in Hebrew. I’ll bet at Siyum Hashas Languages in south America there are speeches in Spanish and Hebrew, since those or the languages spoke n by attendees there.4) “Would you invite someone to your house for a meal and then speak to everyone at the table in a foreign language?”
Yes! I dont skip benching just because someone at the table doesn’t understand the words. I explain what we will do, give him an English bencher, and go on speaking in Lashon Kodesh. Is this really a strange idea?
d o yo insist on skipping benching (or benching in English) just because someone at the table doesn’t fully understand?5) At Harvard’s graduation (lehavdil) a speech is given in Latin, there are less Latin speakers who attend the Harvard graduation than Yiddish speakers at the Siyum. So why do they do that ? That I can tell you in one word: Tradition!
Am I in crazy land? You guys are asking how Hebrew is THE Jewish language?
I don’t get how anyone can be “frum” and not speak Hebrew? This is not a Dati Leumi thing or tzioyni thing. It’s the most basic thing in being a Jew. You learn in Hebrew, pray in Hebrew etc. It’s not like it’s some language that we’re not exposed to at all. Plus go to Israel and even in “Chareidi” yeshivas they speak Hebrew.
Now, I’m not expecting everyone to speak like an Israeli but every observant Jew should have some sort of command of the Hebrew language especially in 2019. An argument could be made for 1850s Poland or Libya. But not now.
Am I in some sort of strange dream?
YO – yes you are dreaming. I agree with you that everyone should speak Hebrew, but unfortunately it’s not the reality. So practically, speaking yiddish is probably more unifying than Hebrew at this type of event.
Personally I was at the last siyum hashtags and was very turned off by the Yiddish speeches. Maybe it was one or two I don’t remember how many I just remember being annoyed. A real waste of my time. But I guess it’s nice for those who don’t understand English. It should be kept to a bare minimum.
CTL, I have a friend whose wife is from Switzerland. She said that she can understand Yiddish if the person speaks slowly and clearly (admittedly not everyone does this and my GP even put on his voice mail recording “speak slowly and clearly”). Ibn fact, Yiddish is a southern German dialect. People who speak Hochdeutsch also have a difficult time in these areas. In ffcat, someone I know whose parents are from Germany said that when he was in Switzerland people considered his way of speaking strange.
Ubiquitin, it should be “fewer Latin speakers” as they are counted as individuals. As for bentsching, as you are not speaking to them or (presumably) in a loud voice their lack of knowledge of Hebrew is not an issue. However, I once was at a seder where the lone Russian oleh was visibly annoyed at the fact that the conversation was in English. When I am with Europeans from the same country they speak to each other in Hebrew as a courtesy to me.
“Am I in crazy land?”
Based on your bizzare recent questions, yes.“I don’t get how anyone can be “frum” and not speak Hebrew? ”
Hebrew is a 19th century revival movmen. Are you suggesting that centuries of Jews before hand werent Frum?“”It’s the most basic thing in being a Jew”
Pity, the satmar Rebbe Was opposed to the most basic thing in Judaism. who knew?“You learn in Hebrew”
Who does? Lets look at the most frequent passuk וידבר ה‘ אל משה לאמר. take that first word, is it Hebrew? (note I’m not asking if it is similar to modern Hebrew or decipherable to a modern Hebrew speaker) In all of Tanach, I have never come across words for iems I use daily, car computer (of course electricty I did find as obviously Yechezkel was referring to the Kisei hakavod’s electricity).
I did once apply my biblical Hebrew skillls when I needed a new belt. I asked for an אבנט, my quest was unsuccessful.” Plus go to Israel and even in “Chareidi” yeshivas they speak Hebrew.”
A. All? How sure are you?
B. I was under the impression that this conversation was regardingthe American siyum hashas, what does Israeli yeshivos speaking Hebrew havve to do with anthing?“An argument could be made for 1850s Poland or Libya. But not now.”
could you make that argument?
Why is today different?CTR: As you were told above, a strong majority of the Yidden at the Siyum understand Yiddish.
Just to make a point, when Joseph says it is a “Yiddishe” event with an “e”, he is using Yiddish to describe it as being a Jewish event, not an event that is supposed to be in Yiddish.
Of course the major event in NYC should have only small amounts of Yiddish, but why can there not be multiple events for people who speak different languages? I know that here in Yerushalayim, there was an event for the English-speaking population. They had different events on different days. Each to his own.
CTR
1. “Yabia Omer is Jewish but he is not Yiddish”
Um, he absolutely is. He is a yid through and through, true while he seems insistent on highlighting divisions among yidden, while confusingly at the same time insiting that others shouldn’t care about them and he clearly is very insecure about his heritage, He does in fact have a varme yiidish neshama, and is no less a yid than any other yid.2. “I never said our common language is Hebrew”
Nope, my response wasn’t all geared to you. Point 2 was in response to the direct quote cited, from another poster here.3. “However, if you would want to say a dvar Torah at the table to teach and inspire the people at the table I would hope you would say it in a language they understand.”
Though I will still quote a passuk in its original. sure I will then translate it, but I dont think they mind .
More to the point though, Are you suggesting that The speeches ALL be SOLELY in English ignoring the people there who don’t feel comfortable communicating in English? Would YOU invite someone to your house for a meal and then speak to everyone at the table in a foreign language?4. “If it makes them feel like they are part of some elite segment of society”
Nu, so whats so bad if during the siyum Hashas they get to feel like they are apart of some elite segment of society.
Though this isnt the main reason, nobody feels “elite” staring at some latin speaker. the reason they do it is as I explained above.“I do not believe that there are more than a handful of participants who have difficulty with English.”
you believe wrong. When the government wants to highlight the important of vaccinations, guess what language they write their flyers in? when politicians post their campaign posters in boro PArk and williamsburg. guess what language they use?
If Yiddish is acceptable for the government to use in communicating important information to yidden, al achas kama vekama it is appropriate at a Siyum HashasCTLawyer, if your sister had no problems using your great-grandmother’s German in Switzerland it was only because so many Swiss nowadays learn standard German in school. Schweitzerdeutsch is very different from anything your GGM spoke. But I got along just fine in Frankfurt with my Litvisher Yiddish, and so would your sister’s Yiddish-speaking friends.
Avi
“Ubiquitin, it should be “fewer Latin speakers” as they are counted as individuals”
See, my English is so bad that I can barely get a coherent point across. Do you really want me sitting at a siyum with all the speeches in English?
(as an aside, you satisfy ubiquitin’s law of the internet, as your post contains not one, but 2 typo’s, don’t worry its ok I fully understood you“When I am with Europeans from the same country they speak to each other in Hebrew as a courtesy to me.”
solely in Hebrew? Or primarily?
If primarily, I am in agreement, that is what they should be doing and the siyum hashas in America should primarily be in English.
If solely, that is really lifnei mishuras hadin and not necessary at all, and I have never seen that ever, and knowing many Europeans I am extremely doubtful that that has ever occurred everubiquitin’s law of the internet
Lol
Oh no, turns out Ubiquitin’s Law of the internet already exists.
It is known as Skitt’s Law “”any post correcting an error in another post will contain at least one error itself” ( which apparently is an online version Hartman’s Law of Prescriptivist Retaliation: “any article or statement about correct grammar, punctuation, or spelling is bound to contain at least one eror”.Which brings me to Ubiquitin’s Law of the internet 2.0: Any clever aphorism has already been stated
The Chasidim, to whom Yiddish is their first language, are now a majority of American Orthodox Jews.
The Siyum is a Jewish event, not an Ashkenazic event (even though Daf Yomi started in Lublin) . therefore Sephardim are part of the Simcha and yiddish is not their language
@Millhouse
If you read my post, my sister attended seminary in Switzerland about 50 years ago. This has nothing to do with the standard German being taught in Swiss schools nowadays (your terminology).
My great Grandmother spoke and taught us High German, our family came from Bavaria. This German is much closer to the Suisserdeutsch than the low German of the north.Frankfurt does not speak High German. I have been to Germany many times on business, but speak, read and write German so had no problem communicating, same with Austria. I went pursuing reparations claims for relatives and clients. Otherwise I have no desire to set foot in those lands,
I first went to Switzerland about 50 years ago. In Zurich and the north I spoke German, In Geneva I spoke French and in Lugano I spoke Italian. I did not use Yiddish or English.
My father Z”L was fluent in 18 languages and made sure we learned at least 6 or 7.
Currently I am attempting to learn Mandarin Chinese, but am making slow progressAmerican Chareidi Sphardim are just about as likely to know Yiddish as Litvishers. Why has nobody brought this up? This isn’t a Ashkenaz/Sphard issue. This is just the usual wacky, Tzionishe suspects making a deal out of nothing.
And, saying something is “Jewish, but not Yiddish” is like saying something is “German, but not Deutsche.”
YO most definitely has a Neshama that is Yiddish/Jewish/Yehudit (t, feminine, Neshama is f.). I don’t point things out to create machloket. i do it for collective self-reflection. When one is in a group of similar people there is a constant reinforcing feedback loop. Without outside observation, you’ll just keep doing the same things or intensifying those things that you’re already doing.
I agree with the above posters that in America English is probably the most unifying language, Perhaps a few Yiddish and Hebrew speeches are ok. I would imagine most Sefardim would not be offended at all if there were some speeches in Yiddish. You kind of have to know your audience.
I understand that Tanachic Hebrew and MIH are not identical. But I refer to both as Hebrew.
With all due respect to R’ Yoel of Satmar, he is not the final word on the status of Hebrew. He is entitled to his da’at but it is not binding on all Jews.
Ubiquitin, they spoke completely in Hebrew. In fact, once when I was with some Russian-speakers one of them even addressed another by his Hebrew name and not his Russian name. You may think that it is lifnim mishurat hadin but that is because you are an American and assume that really everyone speaks English. When I first came to Israel strangers would ask me questions on the street in English without asking first if I speak it. I could not understand how they knew. Then it dawned on me that they are ugly Americans who think that everyone speaks English.
Probably more than 80% of the program is in English. Try to be sovel one or two chassidishe rebbe or similar types speaking in Yiddish, so that all the Yiddish speaking public (and they are a fairly large portion) can enjoy as well.
Look this conversation is sillier than most of our conversations on yiddish.
Its main reedeeming value is that it really highlights the backwards thinking of the anti-yidishists.
the question was:
“Can anyone explain the objective of having speeches in Yiddish at the siyum hashas for Daf yomi in America?”The answer is really quite straight forward, and was identified by the OP “If it is meant to be a unifying event to inspire and celebrate, ” As has been pointed out the majority of attendees DO understand enough Yiddish. While, yes there are many that don’t there are also many that understand only Yiddish.
The most inclusive way to accommodate all is to have speeches in both languages. I get that some here hate yiddish and yiddish speakers (all in the name of achdus of course) but is it really so much to ask to sit there for 10? 15? minutes while a speech is made that others can understand?
(though granted, ideally there would be simultaneous translation on the jumbotrons, which doesn’t seem too complicated to arrange)Furthermore, to many chasidim especially Hungarians there is an issur the first of the takanos michalovityz reads “אסור לדרוש דרשה בלשון אומות העולם” (in Hebrew so you know its serious) . they want to join you although it makes them uncomfortable that the bulk of the speeches violate their takanos, some are willing to join listen to many speeches in English for the sake of achdus, All they ask for in return is some acknowledgment of Yiddish.
IS that really so unreasonable?
(This paragraph is secondary since I’m not sure how many take the takanos seriously but would be satisfied as long as some Yiddish is there, Those who reealy care about the takanos like the Satmar Rebbes won’t be there (partly) due to the fact that the speeches are in English)ummm What about English?
@ CTL
“My father Z”L was fluent in 18 languages”
More then 1/4 of the way to the language competency requirement to sit on the Sanhedrin. Impressive. Today, it seems, the trend is to know 0 languages fluently and to consider this a virtue.
@ ncb
“the usual wacky, Tzionishe suspects…”
I, for one, am not tzionish. I’m non-political.
Not being from NY, I had no idea that in many communities Yiddish is the first language. I do have friends from most major Yeshivas in the US and Israel. While many do speak a Yeshivish Yiddish for none of them is Yiddish their first language.
@bp27 You do not remember correctly about half or more of the speakers were in yiddish.
@Joseph you are also incorrect. The event last time was about 93,000 people. I was there and to say that the majority speak yiddish as well is silly. What is that based on? The daf yomi is a worldwide event people go to shiurim all over the world not just in brooklyn.Last time they had a system where you would call a number and it would translate the speakers for you but honestly it was a terrible system. Its hard to hear a phone call and to hold a phone to your ear while there is a speaker speaking. The simple solution would be to have english subtitles on the screen.
it is assur to remind a bal teshuva where he comes from so by having speakers speak predominantly in yiddish it has that affect
In addition in many families today, the boys know yiddish because they learn in yeshiva in yiddish but the girls do not.
CTRebbe is 100% right
Avi
“You may think that it is lifnim mishurat hadin but that is because you are an American and assume that really everyone speaks English.”:
No, its because I’m not so sensitive that I have to understand EVERY word that is said amongst themselves. I am mature enough to let them speak among themselves in their own language that they are more comfortable in.
“I could not understand how they knew.”
I guess maybe they could tell from the way you look? (look at your last sentence)YO
“Perhaps a few Yiddish and Hebrew speeches are ok.”huuray! so we agree shalom Al yisroel
now we just need to convince Ct rebbe that #chasidishearsmatter“With all due respect to R’ Yoel of Satmar, he is not the final word on the status of Hebrew. He is entitled to his da’at but it is not binding on all Jews.”
Oh obviously, few if any agree wit hhim on this. But even fewer would say that ““”It’s [ie speaking Hebrew] the most basic thing in being a Jew”fg33: Unquestionably a majority understand Yiddish. Either fluently or well enough to understand the speakers. That isn’t to say it is their first language. To many Yiddish is their first language. To many others it is their second language. But between them they represent a majority of the Chareidi world. And the Chareidi world is a super-majority of Orthodox Jews in America.
Not all Charedim speak Yiddish, The Yeshivish world is so so on Yiddish.
As far as the Hungarian Takanah, that probably doesnt apply anymore since most hungrians probably dont speak Yiddish, but rather speak english and its not a Hungarians event anyway
CTLawyer, I said nothing about High or Low; all I know is that when I spent a few days in Frankfurt my Yiddish was sufficient for me to make myself understood and understand others.
The Chasam Sofer had a halacha that Drashas should only be given in Yiddish
ZD
“As far as the Hungarian Takanah, that probably doesnt apply anymore”
Thats you opinion and for now on I will rely on you and stop yelling at my Rabbi when he speaks in English, but not all necessarily agree with you.
” since most hungrians probably dont speak Yiddish, but rather speak english”
I’m not sure what you mean. Rest assured you will not find a public speech in English in a Satmar, Spink, Viznitz, munkatch etc Shtibel.
“and its not a Hungarians event anyway”
True, but you are forgetting “t is meant to be a unifying event to inspire and celebrate,”
Incidentally, I love the logic of: “Lets make this event truly unifying by only speaking the language I understand.” (not a direct quote)
Absolutely fantastic stuff. This might be one of my favorite threads@frumguy33 – Here is the list of speakers from last Siyum HaShas:
Eli Kleinman – English
SY Rechnitz – English
Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky – English (much to the consternation of talmidim, such as myself)
Novomisker Rebbe – Mostly English
Rav Dovid Olewski – Yiddish
Rav Malkile Kotler – Yiddish
Rav Yissochor Frand – English
Jay Schottenstein – English
Rav Yitzchok Scheiner – English
Rav Yaakov Hillel – English
Rav Lau – EnglishAs I said two Yiddish speeches, out of 11.
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