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Wolf – I agree with you, but the world is that everyone in society has to think they are better than the next guy. What do you do if you’re just a plain person? Go after Yichus or money and then you can think you’re something special. I know people with Yichus with No middos, but does that stop them from getting married? No, because so many people just want Yichus! Middos is less important or not important at all. The same thing is true with families that have money. I don’t or ever will envy these people. They have no clue what life is all about!
Yichus is (unfortunately) important when you want to get your child into the school of your choice.
“my Rebbe in Israel always used to say “If you can’t explain it, it means you don’t fully understand it”
I had a Rebbe who said the same thing, although he was in NY State 🙂
He also used to say (and probably still does – and am probably giving away the Rebbe) Zeh Hachaim, Hachaim lo picnic.
When my father A”H was in shidduchim (in the 60s) he went out with a granddaughter of an illustrious Tzadik of the previous Dor. After the date – his Rebbe/Rosh Yeshiva asked him if he thought she was special. When my father replied that she was nice but he didn’t see anything out of the ordinary in terms of middos or Yiras Shamayim – he was told to drop the shidduch. His Rebbe felt that someone with that Yichus should have portrayed exceptional middos and if that was not the case then this was not a shidduch worth pursuing. So I would have to say that Yichus is a plus only if the descendants have absorbed the traits of their ancestors.
I agree with you, but the world is that everyone in society has to think they are better than the next guy.
I don’t have a problem with that… provided you truly are better than the next guy. You’ve learned Shas? Wonderful! You’ve started a successful business? Terrific. You’ve met some other personal, professional or spiritual goal that you’ve set for yourself? Congratulations. All those things may, indeed, make you better than “the next guy.” But who your parents are? Sorry… that’s just a lucky accident. It’s almost like saying that a millionaire is a great finance wizard when all he did was win the lottery.
What do you do if you’re just a plain person?
The correct answer (yeah, I know, I’m dreaming “pie in the sky”) is that you better yourself.
The Wolf
So I would have to say that Yichus is a plus only if the descendants have absorbed the traits of their ancestors.
That seems to be what many posters are saying.
The question therefore is, so then what does the yichus do? If all you are is what you are anyway, then what is the point of the yichus?
You could say it helped you get there, and that is fine and nice. But once you are meeting someone to marry them, you pretty much know who they are anyway.
popa
1. the effect of the yichus upon the person may not be apparent until there is a time of difficuly and challenge, which you may not yet have had the opportunity to observe.
2. could be its like a recessive gene in a sense and may not manifest itself visibly in this person but could become revealed in her children.
3. it takes a long time to get to know a person, certainly much longer than the time spent together before marriage
mod 80
but those are both big “maybes” that cannot be undoubtedly observed ever… so most posters (and I think rightfully so) consider it irrelevant. The only real advantage of marrying somebody with yichus would be getting special treatment from all the people who consider yichus to be important.
If you go back a hundred years, we all come from the same people, Reb and Rebbetzin Yid, Z’l. In fact Z’l is the most common jewish surname.
About 20 years ago, I wanted to redd shiduchim for two sisters who were then in their thirties. I was told that their mother is only looking for Yichus. As far as I know, they are still single and looking for that yichus.
Has anyone mentioned z’chus avos?
I’ll bite. What is the connection between zchus avos and yichus?
apy: Isn’t it obvious?
Wouldn’t someone want his children to have the z’chus avos of the tzaddikim who were ancestors of his spouse?
Wouldn’t someone want his children to have the z’chus avos of the tzaddikim who were ancestors of his spouse?
Not at the expense of far more important factors.
The Wolf
Wolf: who said at the expense of something else?
Would you want to marry a person with a sense of humor?
Is your response going to be “not at the expense of marrying a healthy person”?
Wolf: who said at the expense of something else?
It has to be at the expense of something else… unless you’re positing two candidates that are otherwise completely equal.
Considering the fact that I consider “personal preference” to be a factor that outweighs z’chus avos (as in “I would rather marry him/her”), I find it hard to consider a case where any potential “z’chus avos” would even come into consideration.
The Wolf
So looking for someone with a good sense of humor would not be a consideration for you, since it is more important to find a healthy person?
Why a sense of humor yes, but zchus avos/yichus no?
So looking for someone with a good sense of humor would not be a consideration for you, since it is more important to find a healthy person?
Did I say that?
The Wolf
Also, here is what is often stupid about yichus:
Anything which is more than 3-4 generations, is pretty meaningless.
If you go back 10 generations, you have 1024 ancestors at that level. Meaning you have 1024 great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.
Go back just a few more and it is totally viral. 30 generation is 1 Billion ancestors at that level.
Now look at the descendant side. Assuming 5 life kids per generation, someone 5 generations ago would have 3125 descendants. So you are one of them. Yay!!
So when someone tells you they are descended from the shach, don’t be too impressed. If they say from rashi, just say “me too, howdy cuz”.
Popa:
Zchus Avos works for 13 (?) generations.
If you go back 10 generations, you have 1024 ancestors at that level. Meaning you have 1024 great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.
Actually, you probably have far less than 1024, as there is more than likely considerable crossover.
The Wolf
wow
so just 30 generations ago (assuming a generation is about 30 years, so less than a thousand years ago) there were over a thousand million Jews! and those are just the ones that were my anscestors. can you figure out how many billions there were at the time of Yetzias Mitzrayim.
Yichus gives you a feeling as being part of the elite; like when you attend her family simchas and you are represented as being part of their elite club.
Also usually ‘protektzia’ comes together with yichus. This can help with getting yourself a good job or getting your children into the mosdos of your choice.
Additionally, yichus can give you immediate public recognition, since people will naturally assume that you must be something special if a yichusdik family took you for a son in law.
There is obviously a reason why the Mishna mentions as one of three primary things when searching for a girl, “Tinu Einichem B’Mishpacha”.
Rabbosai, there is a lesson in Medrash Rabba (early in sedra shmos) about legacy in ruchnyus. It says, if a person is moser nefesh for a mitzva, that mitzva will never be absent inn his progeny. The medrash gives an amazing example: Yisro, and Yael eshes chever Hakeini. So the guarantee does not mean that extraordinary middos/accomplishments occur in every generation, and in the case given, perhaps not even a blood relative. So yichus is nice, because it is a chain in which every so often, a link shines brilliantly. It also indicates that is also nice to start a new chain.
It also says ??? ?????? ?????, but every time a guy mentions that we get screamed at.
Yichus gives you a feeling as being part of the elite; like when you attend her family simchas and you are represented as being part of their elite club.
Big furry deal. I don’t need an artifical “elite” feeling. If I earn elite status, that’s one thing. But to have it simply because I married into it? No thanks.
Also usually ‘protektzia’ comes together with yichus. This can help with getting yourself a good job or getting your children into the mosdos of your choice.
If a place is going to accept/reject my kids simply because of who their grandfather was regardless of the actual content of his/her character, then I’m better off without them.
Additionally, yichus can give you immediate public recognition, since people will naturally assume that you must be something special if a yichusdik family took you for a son in law.
Again, I don’t need fame-by-association. If I want it, I’d rather have it because I earned it in my own right.
The Wolf
In my above post I was referring to yichus of girl’s parents or grandparents.
It has to be at the expense of something else… unless you’re positing two candidates that are otherwise completely equal.
In which case any consideration must be at the expense of something else… so you take nothing into consideration (except, perhaps, one factor to the exclusion of all else)?
Wolf: So you can rather choose “Tinu Eineichem B’Yofi” as Popa quoted. However, others might feel more of a pull towards “Mishpacha”.
Let me start by saying that I don’t have yichus, am not married to someone with yichus, and don’t really think that yichus is very important.
From my understanding of the issue, however, people who think yichus is important do so because of the following reasons:
– They want to make sure that there is no p’gam in the ancestry which may have happened if there are ancestors who were not shomer Torah U’mitzvos
– In cases of close yichus, as in father, grandfather, and perhaps great-grandfather, one would hope that being raised in a family that is known for excelling in limud Torah, yiras shamayim, middos tovos, etc would have had an effect on the child in question and would produce a highly mechunach and refined ben torah. Of course, as a previous poster mentioned, if that proves not to be the case, this reason would not hold water.
– Zchus avos. There is a concept of the descendants of a great tzaddik having special shemirah and zechusim based on the merits of their ancestors, assuming that they themselves are a decent person.
I would be surprised if someone took a shidduch based on yichus “at the expense” of other crucial maalos – most people sould looking for yichus in addition to other wonderful things. And of course everyone has to prioritize all the things they’re looking for. Just like everything else on the list.
Popa: Good idea. I think I’ll say that to the next person who tries to set me up.
No, the connection is not obvious. Why do you assume that great tzadikim are the only ones who accumulate zchusim for their children? Are you familiar.with the zchusim committee in shamayim and how they operate? Are you privy to how zchusim are accumulated and banked for later generations?
Everyone passes on their zchusim to their children and grandchildren.
Great Tzadikim have more zchusim to pass on.
It has to be at the expense of something else… unless you’re positing two candidates that are otherwise completely equal.
I wouldn’t consider yichus more important than factors such as middos/yiras shamayim (to the contrary; those are certainly more important), but those are often unknown (beyond what’s readily observable), so for practical purposes, the two candidates might be considered completely equal.
If you were deciding between two schools for your child, you would decide based on which school seemed to have a better chance of enabling success for that child. You would consider who the teachers and administrative staff are, as well as the type of students they attract, and of course, the track record each school has with children similar to yours.
However, you would not be certain which school would actually be better; unknown factors, such as how well your child will interact with his/her teachers, principal, and classmates could play into it, but you have no choice other than to decide based on the known.
Even if you don’t consider yichus to be of great importance, at least grant it as a factor. In my above example, you might decide that the schools have equal merit, and the determining factor might end up being something as relatively unimportant as closer proximity or slightly lower tuition.
I didnt read the whole thread but IMHO yichus is 00000! In today’s day and age, roshei yeshiva and gedolim can raise the most rotten of rotten children. I’ve seen this personally! Kids who’ve gone OTD and totally rebell and kids with awful middos. Yes, any parent can raise such kids but I’m saying the fact that their gr8 grandfather duzn’t mean a thing. Children aren’t products of their home anymore. Besides there’s yeridas hadoros.
Everyone passes on their zchusim to their children and grandchildren.
Great Tzadikim have more zchusim to pass on.
Just because someone is not famous doesn’t mean they aren’t a Tzaddik. (Not that they are definitely one, just saying no yichus doesn’t really mean anything.)
PBA and mod-80, most of us don’t have 1024 distinct ancestors going back ten generations, since there’s some overlap due to inbreeding. This phenomenom, called pedigree collapse, is well-documented in the general population but I’d guess it’s more pronounced among Jews.
Everyone passes on their zchusim to their children and grandchildren.
Not everyone. I don’t have any z’chusim to pass on. Even if I did, they would be so hopelessly corrupted that anyone would be better off not having them.
The Wolf
mischief maker: right, and the person, if he himself is good, is the 1; so a 1 in front of 6 zeroes is 1,000,000. 😉
there’s story about a great tzaddik marrying off his daughter to an orphan. at the engagement, the tzaddik says, “we have a minhag to read off the yichussim of both parties.” so he starts listing all the yichus on side of girl. then it’s the boy’s turn: he says, i don’t know my parents or any yichus, but one thing i learned when i was an apprentice to a shoemaker. “as long as the candle is lit, can still fix the shoe, and i apply that to the neshamah.” the tzaddik says, “that’s equal all the yichus in the world”
“Great Tzadikim have more zchusim to pass on.”
Again, you are privy as to how zechusim are tabulated, collected and allocated? You are certainly correct that great tzadikim do a lot more than the avg poshiteryid, however, you do not know how the ribbono shel olam “scores” their torah and maasim tovim, and how they are applied to later doros.
Personally, I am familiar with the maamer chazal to seek to marry a bas talmid chacham, the maamer chazal that a father should seek to marry his daughter to a talmid chacham, and even the maamar chazal about looking into the brothers of a potential wife. The only yichus chazal have told us to look out for are those that are psulai kahal. If you are familiar with a maamar chazal that one should seek a marriage partner who shtams from yichus, please share it. If all things were equal, then why not look at the elte zeida, otherwise the elte zeida could have been the gadol hador of a previous generation, but if his grandaughter is a shrew, all his zechusim wont help you (they certainly didnt help her, or her parents who raised her).
A Bas Talmid Chochom, by definition, is yichus.
A Tzadik, by definition, has more zchusim than a non-tzadik.
A Bas Talmid Chochom, by definition, is yichus.
A Tzadik, by definition, has more zchusim than a non-tzadik.
A Talmid Chochom does not, by definition, have to be tzadik. Nor does a tzadik, by definition, have to be a talmid chochom.
And, of course, by definition, I am neither.
The Wolf
You are redefining the term yichus how it is being used in this thread, and still make assumptions about the way things work in shamayim. Feel free.
A Talmid Chochom does not, by definition, have to be tzadik. Nor does a tzadik, by definition, have to be a talmid chochom.
My comment didn’t address or dispute that. But now that you brought it up, while it is true that a tzadik does not, by definition, need to be a talmid chochom, OTOH a talmid chochom does by definition need to be a tzadik. A rasha who knows kol HaTorah kula is no “talmid chochom”.
OTOH a talmid chochom does by definition need to be a tzadik. A rasha who knows kol HaTorah kula is no “talmid chochom”.
I disagree. Were I more learned, I would be the classic example of a talmid chochom who is not a tzaddik. Someone can be learned and choose not to observe what he learns.
The Wolf
However you look at it, you wake up in the morning next to your spuse, not their dead ancestors. A shrew is still a shrew even if she (or he) has yichus up the wazoo.
yichus up the wazoo
Nominated for best line of the day.
The Wolf
Wolf: The definition of a Talmid Chochom isn’t a matter of opinion on which you can disagree. It has a defined definition. The Gemorah enumerates the attributes of a Talmid Chochom. These include not being the last to enter the Beis HaMedrash, not talking to a woman in the street, etc. Also, the principles of which a Talmid Chochom must live, is stated in ???? ??? ??? ????. The opening sentence says a Talmid Chochom is modest, humble, endures justice, avoids wrongdoing, etc. So in fact a Talmid Chochom by definition is a Tzadik, and not merely someone who is “learned”, otherwise he isn’t a Talmid Chochom.
Wolf: The definition of a Talmid Chochom isn’t a matter of opinion on which you can disagree.
OK, so I’m a kofer with a differing opinion.
The Gemorah enumerates the attributes of a Talmid Chochom. These include not being the last to enter the Beis HaMedrash, not talking to a woman in the street, etc.
I guess I’m definitely not a Talmid Chochom then. I hold the door open for people and purposely go in last. I also talk to my wife in the street. Just further proof that I’m the lowest of the low.
The opening sentence says a Talmid Chochom is modest, humble, endures justice, avoids wrongdoing, etc.
Definitely not me, as we’ve observed.
The Wolf
It also includes “being recognizable in the way he does business” implying that he does.
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