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peerimsameach – BE WHO YOU ARE. your not doing anyone a favor by being a “two facer” – i mean in the way you dress.
“when most Kolel guys put on colored shirts (almost all change how they dress) once they start working?”
Same as when Kohanim leave the Beit HaMikdash – the white Bigdei Kehuna come off.
WellInformedYid said:
Yarmulka size- I think it says something about ones Yiras Shomayim
I think this is ridiculous. Many people wear the yarmalka they wear just because that is what everyone else does. Same as white shirts, etc. True, there are people who really feel yiras shamayim and wear a large yarmalka because of that but you can’t be sure. Better to look at his davening as you mention later.
The true litmus test for a guys frumkiet in my opinion is as follows:
Find out his shul manners.
If he davens with Kavannah and doesnt talk by davening, in all likelihood the guys is gold. If he respects the shul, his fellow daveners, and takes Davening seriously it means he has Emunah and a deep connection to Hashem. Usually the daveners and those who wont talk by Davening are much frummer and more “REAL” about their Yiddishkiet.
If you can get this info on a guy it will save you hours of senseless shidduch calls.
Im sure most of the guys will agree with me, but again, a lot of “frum” people talk by davening so they wont like what I am saying. However if you are honest you will agree that the Modern Orthodox looking guy without the hat that Davens the long Shemoneh Esrei and listens quietly to krias Hatorah is probably a lot frummer than the Yeshivish looking guy who talks through most of Davening and Krias Hatorah.
Not necessarily. Everyone has their nisyonos. Talking in davening is one of them. I’m sure there are many great guys who happen to talk during davening. There are some people who will daven with lots of kavana (or look like they do), but will talk between aliyos. I would be more concerned about during which part of davening someone is talking. There are certain parts of davening where the Shulchan Aruch says that it is assur to talk. During other parts, it is technically muttar. (Perhaps there should be a thread devoted to this)
I agree with the davening manners yardstick (but I thought to was Wolf that said it). Not the “shukle and fist-pumping” play acting types; the people who daven like they mean it, don’t play around with their blackberry, and behave like they are in the presence of Hashem (which they are!)
“Life’s too short to live a lie. Either live the yeshivish dress, or else let your parents know how you truly feel about it.”
I guess kibud av vaim mean nothing to you. If his parents dont want him to wear jeans he shoudnt be wearing them. PERIOD
obviously he shouldn’t be wearing jeans. But dont be a two facer. In life you have to BE WHO YOU ARE. and not be scared of what everyone’s saying or thinking.
“and not be scared of what everyone’s saying or thinking. “
You are suposed to be scared of yur parents. Ish imo vaviv tirau.
Mosherise, you are supposed to respect them, not be scard of them
No. Kibud and yirah are not the same. Ones respect and ones fear.
Mosherose:
Halacha dictates what fear means. One isnt supposed to be scared that their Totty is going to hurt them if they wear jeans.
WANT TO HEAR A SHOCKER?
Rav Shlomo Volbe Zatzal held that it is asur to hit a child who is older than 3 years old. Yes thats not a typo. Older than 3! He says in our dor where chutzpah is rampant hitting ones child is lifnei iver because the kid will hit you back!
Also due to the lack of personal attention most kids have from their parents, they misinterpret the smack as hatred and abuse.
Everyone is making a whole big deal about “yeshivish”.
In reality “yeshivisih” is just a fad. Anyone who is in yeshiva knows that just wearing a white shirt does not make you “yeshiviah”.
Go to a yeshiva which people consider “yeshivish” and guys will say, well, he’s “yehivish” hes not etc…
So “yeshiviah” is not simply white shirt its more than that because ITS A FAD.
Meaning:
Payos plays a role. Do you only have sideburns or do you have that stuff stuck behind your ears.
Do your tzizis hang out.
Very important! How do you talk? Do you interject your speach with arimaic words? How much do you do it? Do you use Yiddish words?
There are different levels. e.g. If you say “recht” instead of “right” or “yankev” instead of “yaakov” you are VERY yeshivish.
If you just use standard yeshivish lingo like “mamish” you might be regular yeshivish.
To a certain extent “coolness” goes along with “yeshivish” So you can have a guy who doesnt do all of the above things, only some, but he makes up for it by being “with it”. So he will be a “cool, yehsivish” type, which is a hot commodity in the yeshivish world.
For example, he may get real involved in learning and use all the lingo, he might even start changing his accent by sounding a bit more chassidishy with a rougher tone but hes got a hot pair of glasses (rimless, wide thick sides, colorful) or perhaps black loafers with a strong white stitch (sure sign of big “cool yeshivish” desire). That combo is “in” in a lot of “yeshivish” places.
Other signs could be:
Wearing the jacket slinked over the shoulders, not the correct way of wearing it. (very yeshivish)
Putting your head down for a nap and putting your jacket over you.
(very yeshivsh)
plain black suit with eye catching tie. Nowadays if it has alot of stuff going on inside like fowers or twirls its in. (cool yeshivish)
etc. etc. etc.
My point is, not to be sarcastic (maybe a little) but to show that “yeshivish” is not “frum” or anything associated with real yiddishkeit. ITS A FAD.
Now that doesnt make it terrible. In other times or in other places, other things are in. In some circles Money, movies, girls etc. is in. And that is a shanda. “yesivish” is certainly better than that.
True frumkeit is rated by one thing and one thing only:
How well does he keep shulchan aruch. (including the “fifth” chelek)
Does he daven with a minyan?
Does he talk during Davining?
Does he speak Lashon Harah?
Is he a bal gaavah?
Is he serious about Torah study?
Does he watch movies? What kind of movies?
How are his middos? is he a nice kind peson?
Does he harbor hatred in his heart?
Does he engage in bitul torah during learning?
How many coffee breaks does he take per seder?
etc. etc. etc.
What he wears is important to an extent. It gives a general idea of where a man is in society. But it in no way at als defines a mans state of yiddishkeit.
Perhaps I’m looking at it the wrong way, but I’ve always understood Yirah (in terms of Kibud Av V’aym) to be more along the lines of “awe” than “fear.”
The Wolf
In this week’s parsha of Bolok we hear about Bilaam’s lauding Am Yisroel as being “am levodod yishkon”. Part of that concept of being “alone in the world” means that Klal Yisroel should be unique and that our uniqueness is that we all act in concert. Why is it that frum yidden, shomrei all mitzvos bh, maaminim bnei maaminim, can ask a question of why do we, establishment Klal Yisroel, value so-called uniforms. Be it yeshivish or chasidish. You wear the uniform, you’re an OK person. Have you ever read an article about youths at a military academy wearing anything else but a uniform, when in school? Our yeshiva bochurim are “in-school” 24 hours a day, immersed in Torah and kedusha. We are Hashem’s army and an army wears uniforms. Bochurim in yeshiva are the elite of Klal Yisroel, and as such should wear uniforms as any military officer would.
At the root of Yirah, it means to “see” Hashem. When you come to “see” Hashem you will be both in awe and in fear.
Not the fear of a gang of youths following you, but the fear of the King who you will be called before to have your service to him evaluated, as his executioners stand beside him with their axes, and you see all this.
When one knows he will be judged in righteousness, he will be afraid.
I’m sorry, I see you were referring to Kivud Av v Em.
I’ll leave my post up anyway.
“Yeshivish” is a label. In todays cookie cutter generation we all want to be the perfect cookie, therefore, do what is expected to fit the mold and be branded wit this label.
The correct answer to the one who wears jeans when his parents wont find out is not “fear your parents” it is to SPEAK to your parents, respectfully of course. If you are uncomfortable doing so, speak to someone you ARE comfortable speaking with and have that person discuss speak with your parents.
The absolutely worst thing you can do is let it fester and when it comes to shidduchim, all will assume you fit the mold and you will date girls looking for the cookie. If you cant speak to your parents will you be able to open up to a girl who you dont know well and open up to her and explain who you really are? Will you get engaged to and then marry a girl who thinks you belong to one mold when in fact you are a square peg that was jammed into a round hole?
Your parents (I hope) want what is best for you, not their image in the community.
At the root of Yirah, it means to “see” Hashem. When you come to “see” Hashem you will be both in awe and in fear.
I’m not so certain of that. The two words have completely different shorashim. Yes, they sounds similar in certain tenses, but they are not the same word.
Aside, if you’re a ba’al kriah, you must be careful to differentiate between yiru (they saw — pronounced with a sh’va nach) and yir’u (they feared – pronounced with a sh’va na).
The former can be found in Ki Sisa (24:10 — note only one yud in the word VaYiru)
??????????, ??? ??????? ??????????; ??????? ????????, ??????????? ??????? ??????????, ????????? ???????????, ???????
The latter can be found right before Az Yashir (note the two yuds in the word VaYir’u):
???????? ?????????? ???-?????? ??????????, ?????? ?????? ?????? ????????????, ??????????? ?????, ???-??????; ?????????????, ????????, ??????????, ????????.
Reading the word the wrong way changes the meaning and the ba’al kriah is required to go back and read it again correctly.
The Wolf
As usual, that is not my idea, this is what Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tz’l has said on numerous occasions. In addition to his Gadlus in general, he was an expert in dikduk and Loshon Ha’Kodesh.
DELETED
He clearly stated that the deep and ultimate root of the word was from seeing, not a drush or play on words. I’m not going to discuss the correctness of Rabbi Miller’s words on this forum.
OK, and what’s so offensive about my other post that it hasn’t gone up?
The Wolf
Nothing
It just wasn’t approved yet
Hiding something from your parents is likely a clear violation of kibbud av too (aside from the fact that it isnt healthy for a relationship). You must speak with your parents and let them know how you feel. Respectfully, of course.
Nothing
It just wasn’t approved yet
Fair enough. When you see post 2 being deleted before post 1 has gone up — and you see other posts go up after it, the tendency is to think that post 1 is also going to be rejected.
The Wolf
Understandable, the moderating system can get a little off kilter sometimes.
“Bochurim in yeshiva are the elite of Klal Yisroel, and as such should wear uniforms as any military officer would.”
Wow!!!
Most teenagers (even Jewish) are not military academy material.
With Moshe Rabenu military service started at 20, in most modern countries at 18, but theprof1 wants them regimented at 13.
The Rambam talks about such an elite “Me she-nasa libo” as the nowadays Shevet Levi. But he was talking about those who voluntarily choose this, not young boys shoved into such a role.
As CC alumnus I can tell you that shirt and hat color are not a “thing”.
“Aside, if you’re a ba’al kriah, you must be careful to differentiate between yiru (they saw — pronounced with a sh’va nach) and yir’u (they feared – pronounced with a sh’va na).”
My rebbi never told us about such a difference and he knows dikduk far better than someone like you.
all i can say is that if it’s the accepted thing to do (for a yeshivish person) then do it…(if you want to be considered yeshivish)..not everything needs to be made into an issue..technically, does it make a person frummer, no…but it is the accepted yeshivish way of dressing..and by doing so, we are seperating ourselves quite clearly from the goyim..one of the things bnei yisroel didnt change was their clothing…clothing is significant…
rebbetzin – be careful with your wording “if it’s the accepted thing to do (for a yeshivish person) then do it…
there can be (and are) many things that have become accepted in the “yeshivishe velt” to do that are NOT correct and right. i’d rather not go into them.
But yes, clothing IS significant, and we dress differently than the goyim to show were different…
Just a story: A Rebbe (I beleive the Satmar) was talking to a clean-shaven yid for a long time. When the guy left, a chassid asked the Rebbe, “Why were you spending so much time with a man without a beard?” The Rebbe responded: “When he comes up to shamayim, they will ask him ‘Yid, Yid, where’s your beard’ when you come up to shamayim they will ask, ‘Beard, beard, where’s your Yid?
When I went to work, I was introduced to many challenges that were not present in Yeshiva. You can accuse me of being naive all you want, but the fact that I was in a sheltered environment while in Yeshiva allowed me to learn and grow tremendously.
Keeping the white shirt, tzitzus out (albiet wrapped around the belt) helps me stay true to “where I came from.” Dressing in a “yeshivish uniform” is the best reminder for me to stay true to the high standards and values that were taught to me in Yeshiva.
i believe that a black suit and white shirt is a very respectabel looking uniform, and that’s one reason why they wear it. same with the hat.
i myself would only marry someone who wore this levush because of that reason, not because i think he has better yiddishkeit – i’m just into looking respectable.
just about that comment before ‘was the yo really necessary’ – who cares? obviously he felt the need to say it. and it’s not a bad word – i say let it be!
L613. You did not offend me. I was merely pointing out that there is no “thing” to the blue shirt, grey hat. The color is not important. Whats important is to look respectable and bakovodik.
“Dressing in a “yeshivish uniform” is the best reminder for me to stay true to the high standards and values that were taught to me in Yeshiva.”
The things I learned in Yeshiva and the impact that they made on me, are the best reminders for me to live up to the high standards and values learned in Yeshiva. I think too much emphasis is placed upon the color of the shirt and pants as a means of upholding values and standards and not enough emphasis is placed on internalizing the values that were learned.
i believe that a black suit and white shirt is a very respectabel looking uniform, and that’s one reason why they wear it. same with the hat.
i myself would only marry someone who wore this levush because of that reason, not because i think he has better yiddishkeit – i’m just into looking respectable.
But does it necessarily follow that someone who wears a nice, clean, pressed, etc. blue shirt is not looking respectable?
The Wolf
emoticon613: In the summer it is a Faux-Pas to wear a black hat; a straw hat is “respectable” and the proper attire.
I took real issue with the “Yo” for two reasons;
# 1 – its “gaas raid” and has no place in the CR
# 2 – for the most part, the CR members are adults (and in many cases parents and grandparents) and while anyone has a right to join in, they should speak in a tone that is the accepted one in the group.
But the biggest irritant is the attitude that is associated with gaas raid. I’m willing to bet he smokes too (and may favorite.. he wears his baseball cap sideways or backwards!)
But seriously, he is in a room full of bnei and bnos torah, and he should speak our language.. not that of the street.
And as far as straw hats – thank you for taking me back to my teen years (yes, also in BP).
I clearly remember the gabbai announcing “with the approaching holiday of Memorial Day, all mispallelim are reminded to start wearing “dem shtroi-enem hit” and ties are no longer necessary for shalesheedis”
Boy do I miss the 70s!
i dont see any yo or gaas raid here..what is everyone talking about?
“i believe that a black suit and white shirt is a very respectabel looking uniform”
For busboys, waiters, undertakers and penguins perhaps. Its nice to look like a yeshiva bachur, it is even better to act like one. That is the “thing” with CC.
Straw hats were mentioned in an earlier post. I was wondering if, as long as uniforms are being worn, it would make sense to adapt the uniform to the climate. Here in NY it is hot and humid in the summer. Wearing a black hat, long sleeve shirt, and jacket seems uncomfortable to me. Why not a straw hat?
gavra_at_work —
where???
i’d have to say that i never noticed that the black hat is a faux pas in the summer; where i come from and where i live now, the straw hat is the faux pas. last i checked, anyway.
wolf – no.
but i do stick to my guns here.
but anyway, i don’t care about faux pas. it’s my opinion that the yeshive uniform is respectable looking. that’s all.
Rebbitzin – it was in an earlier post, you missed it, but beileve me, you didn’t miss anything.
All I hoped to accomplish with my post was to keep our CR as clean and tidy as it should be. We CR dwellers make every effort to keep this place a wholesome environment, and keeping the shprach as befitting a YNW is one of them (IMHO).
thank you bp tatty for explaining!
I heard from a CC rabbi that the Chofetz Chaim colored shirt thing is supposedly an offshoot of the approach that existed in the Slabodka Yeshiva, where Rabbi Lebowitz, the CC Rosh Yeshiva, learned. They focused a lot there on what’s known as Gadlus HaAdam, the greatness of man, and one of the reasons was because in those days Yeshiva guys were considered lowly and it was hard to feel proud to be one. So they made them dress a little spiffy amongst other things, to boost their morale and self-image. The CC people sort of carried that over, and to them, it manifests in their wearing colored shirts. If you ask me, it doesn’t accomplish anything nowadays and just serves to make CC different in the eyes of the rest of the Yeshiva world. I am nobody to tell them what to do, but I dont see what they’re gaining.
Re: Yanky R.
“They focused a lot there on what’s known as Gadlus HaAdam, the greatness of man, and one of the reasons was because in those days Yeshiva guys were considered lowly and it was hard to feel proud to be one. So they made them dress a little spiffy amongst other things, to boost their morale and self-image. The CC people sort of carried that over, and to them, it manifests in their wearing colored shirts. If you ask me, it doesn’t accomplish anything nowadays and just serves to make CC different in the eyes of the rest of the Yeshiva world. I am nobody to tell them what to do, but I dont see what they’re gaining.”
Firstly: Gadlus haAdam has nothing to do with low self esteem! or how yeshiva guys are perceived, The point of focusing on Gadlos Haadam is to help one realize he is a Tzelem Elokim and that requires a way to behave, dress, talk etc….
Nextly: CC never dresses to look “spiffy”, CC dresses to look appropriate and respectable, hence the ties. White shirts are NOT the common place in the “real world” and never has been, it is for “dressy” occasions (weddings, special occasions etc..)
Netxter: R’ Lebowitz Zt”l expressed concern about guys dressing “yeshivish” he felt a bachur would empasize the chitzonis when he should be more focused on what counts the penimis, middus, mussar etc…. not what shpitzy shirt your wearing or is that a perry ellis or Armani, and whether the shirt is starched enough, and whether to break the pocket or not (if you got the latter then you know what I mean by focusing on the wrong things!), that is why R’ Lebowitz felt better not to dress Yeshivish and fall in the trap and focus more on mussar and the rest of the “Yeshivish velt” be darned!
Almost Lastly: It was never, and I hope it never will be, been the focus of CC to “fit in” the yeshiva feels strongly on what buchrim need to focus and worry about, and feel very confident and well grounded with a solid Messorah, there is no messorah to worry about narishkait, such as white shirts vs blue shirts vs no ties etc….. It is narishkait and CC feels no need to push it just to “fit in” buchrim do not need a “dress code” so they can associate with anything, maybe we should wear bekashurs and grow payes so we can even more associate ourselves with yiddishkait etc…
Lastly: The “Levhush” is only a big deal because it is made to be one
Gadlus Hadam is the mainstay of Slabodka mussar. Part of Gadlus Hadam is dressing like a mentch. A nice colored shirt does not detract from your dressing like a mentch. Colored shirts do not detract from being a ben torah in any way, despite what some folks may think. Is a white shirt with a Nautica logo on the pocket any more “yeshivish” than a blue shirt with no logo? There are plenty of CC folks who wear white shirts. CC is not obsessed with the color of the shirt/hat, rather the middos and mentslechkeit displayed by the wearer of said hat/shirt. There is no policy to wear a white shirt or a policy to wear a colored shirt.
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