Yeshivish Secular Studies

yechezkel89

im not sure where youre looking but vihagisah boi yoimam vlaiyla is a real aseh yes no wishe washe straight up chiyuv to learn every second of youre life now there are heterim a oines and piturim most famous to bachurim is napping or bein hazmanim to relax and get energy to learn more there is also a pitur or oines (machlokes see my previous post) to go out and make parnasa nothing wrong just realize its only a pitur from torah and beetzem every jewish man is michuyav every second of his life its pushut like this the problem is when people forget this and i know plenty of buchurim who all along know they are going to work and after marrige move to diff states to go to the best college yeshivish from reg yeshivos thats the wrong attitude!! if you need money go work but its only allowed for exactly what you need and give me a break let any balhabos to sit in yeshiva 12 hours a day he’ll be running after half a day ITS NOT LAZY TO STAY IN YESHIVA ITS AN OL BUT THATS WHAT WE ARE ABOUT ASHER BUCHAR BUNU MIKOL HOAMIM VINASAN LONU TOIRASO!!!!!!!

Thank you holtzichfest. You said it well.

Rav Elchonon and Rav Boruch Ber’s, as well as Rav Moshe Feinstein’s, lack of secular education did not result in any grease soiled clothing.

Igros Moshe, Even HaEzer 2:1

“My outlook is based only on knowledge of Torah whose ways are truth, without any influence of secular studies.”

Rav Moshe lived in the U.S. and wasn’t Chasidish. He proudly attributed his outlook and Torah ways to his not having had any secular studies or influence thereof.

holtzichfest

The current level and breadth of learning didn’t exiot prior to WW2 because the Jewish community was too poor to have so many boys sittin and learning. If not for the secular learning of the post WW2 generation that produced wealth doctos and lawyers,

many kolels and yeshivas could not syrvive.

Ok, so don’t educate youe kids with secular studies, but slso, don’t hold parlor meetings in communities that do educate their kids looking for contributions.

lesschumrus , i know of plenty very very big gevirim who didn’t know a word of english, who were not “educated” and support tons of the yeshivos kollelim and schools in my area so don’t tell me that having a parnasa is only dependent on secular education.

Doesn’t NY State law require it to?

Also, the parent body may have refused allowing their children to attend otherwise, and the hanhala felt it the lesser of two evils.

I went to be menachem aveil and heard this amazing story. The niftar at one time was a Rosh Yeshiva of a small yeshvia in Chicago. He was giving a shiur to his students and realized they were very restless. He asked them what was going on and they said they were having a serious math test that afternoon and they didn’t quite understand the math. He told them all to close their Gemaras and proceeded to explain the math to them. Once they were all comfortable and seemed to “get it”, he told them they could reopen their Gemaras and they could resume learning.

aries, What great thinking on his part! If the students were restless about the world series results, he’d probably do the same thing so it wouldn’t interfere with their learning.

Health, the Rema 246:4 rules explicitly that it is halachicly prohibited to engage in a curriculum of secular studies. To read secular studies now and then – occasionally when you have spare time, is permitted, the Rema says.

Health – It isn’t my translation but rather that of the Birkas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27 p.42) and of the Kovetz Shiurim II:47. I’ll take their understanding over yours any day.

And don’t start with the GRA! The GRA declared in his commentary on Laws of Avodah Zarah that even the Rambam has had certain of his Torah positions corrupted due to the influence of his secular studies in philosophy.

Regarding High School, the only reasons it is allowed is either because education is mandated by State Law (in New York it is until age 17), or simply because if they did not have High School education in the Yeshivas, parents would simply send their kids to worse places to get it. But it is definitely looked upon not as a l’chatchilah, but rather as something that is annoyingly necessary in the current environment.

Today, there are a small number of High Schools in America – particularly in Lakewood – that do not teach English. Also, many Yeshivos do try to reduce the amount of secular studies as much as possible, through knocking out the last semester of English, and a number of kids are leaving HS early to enter Bais Medrash.

Rav Chaim Segal ZT’L, the Menahel of the High School at Yeshiva Chaim Berlin was once told by Rav Shach ZT’L that if possible, he should not be teaching English studies. In Eretz Yisroel, almost all Chareidi Yeshivos do not have English at that age. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L made some kind of commitment not to allow English studies on the HS level in Lakewood. The exact details, and if this was actually a Takanah or merely a preference, is not clear and depends who you ask. In any case, Rabbi Elya Svei, Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a student of Rav Aharon’s, was asked why he allows English in Philly if Rav Aharon was against it. What difference can there be between the town of Lakewood NJ and Philadelphia PA? Reb Elya answered that he has no choice, and that currently, the Baalei Batim would not send their kids to the Yeshiva except under these circumstances.

Is any of this the ideal? No. It is not. Is it justified? The schools say it is, as they have no choice. But the point is not what the Jews do, its what Judaism wants. Everyone agrees that it would be a higher level, a preferable situation if we would indeed not learn English even at the HS level, at least not beyond what is necessary to survive. Nobody claims it is an ideal.

BTW, it is true that there is a heter to study secular subjects, only to the extent it is needed for parnassa. But the standard of livelihood required is bare minimum. “Kach hi darkah shel torah – pas b’melach tochal etc.” – Bread, salt and water – if you have that, you have parnasah. The Rambam writes that a typical Baal Habayis works 3 hours a day and learns 8.

There is a tape available in many Seforim stores called “The prohibition to learn in Colleges” (Yiddish), which contains addresses by Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L and Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L condemning college. Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L also denounced college in a Teshuva, and in a famous speech delivered to his students, published under the title “The Counsel of the Wicked” (Vaad LeHaromas Keren HaTorah, New York, 1978). There he reiterates that everyone has an obligation to become great in Torah, we should not care so much about Cadillac’s (yes, this was said in the “olden days”), and that learning Torah is what we should be pursuing, not secular stuff. He says in America you do not need college to make a Parnassa, and we should be willing to live on little, not a lot, for the sake of Torah, and that R. Nehuray’s statement in the Gemorah (“I will forgo all skills in the world and teach my son only Torah”) of abandoning all skills in favor of Torah applies all that more today that we live in a country where you can make a parnassa without college, with no miracles needed.

The Chasam Sofer in Parsha Beshalach states clearly that certain secular knowledge is useful for learning certain Torah topics, such as cow anatomy being useful for shechitah, and arithmetic for Eruvin and Sukkah. But that before we embark on obtaining secular knowledge – and of course that means only to the extent that it is useful for our Torah studies – we must first fill ourselves with Torah-only knowledge. After we are strong in Torah, only then can we move to acquire the useful secular knowledge that we need for our Torah studies.

He quotes the Rambam, who he describes as “the father of philosophy” in our religion, in Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah, stating that a person may not learn philosophy until after he has “filled his stomach” with Shas and Poskim, which are the things, and only the things, that bring us Olam Habah. Then he quotes the Rashba, saying that there is a cherem against learning any secular studies if you are under age 25! The he quotes the Gemora in Brachos “Keep your children away from science” (higayon, as some meforshim translate it), noting that the Gemora is directing its prohibition at “your children”, but not at the adults, for adults, who are already advanced in Torah knowledge, need some secular knowledge, such as cow biology (I keep emphasizing that so that we do not make the error of thinking that the secular knowledge that we need is a college education). But it is dangerous for us to pursue it until we are armed and ready with a Torah foundation. This is because someone with a Torah perspective looks at the value and culture of of secular studies differently than does someone ignorant of Torah. And we do want to get the proper perspective.

It’s kind of like firemen putting out a fire. They have to (a) dress in their heat-resistant protective outfits, and (b) run into the fire and put it out. But of course, they have to do it in the right order.

And that is indeed what it boils down to – do we value the Torah’s standards of education more than that of the secular world or vice versa? The choice is simple: All the secular “education” that you get will be useless to you in the next world. There, they will not ask you if you know how many US presidents were re-elected in history, or whether you are familiar with the policies of Chairman Mao, or if you know how to program a computer. They will bring a Sefer Torah scroll to you and ask “do you know what it says in here?” The more you know of that, the more you will be considered “educated”. The less you know, the more you will be considered ignorant. So the question is – do I want to be educated on this world or on the next?

And please note, there is no minimum threshold for the amount of Torah you are obligated to know. The rule is: more is better; less is worse. And the difference between just a little more and a little less is staggering. As the Vilna Gaon points out, one word of Torah knowledge gives you more holiness than an entire lifetime’s worth of doing other Mitzvos.

And here we thought that a secular education is expensive! Its much more expensive than you think – you can acquire it only at the expense of your time and effort that you could have been putting toward becoming educated in Olam Habah.

Two things, though. First, the prohibition is only to learn secular studies as a regular curriculum. To read about them occasionally in your spare time is permitted.

Josh31, these talmidim are desirous of following the path defined by the Rema, Rav Moshe, Rav Ahron, Rav Elya, Rav Shach, Rav Boruch Ber, Rav Elchonon, etc. Chas V’Shalom to describe the path of our Gedolim, including but not limited to the Rema, Rav Moshe, Rav Ahron, Rav Elya, Rav Shach, Rav Boruch Ber, and Rav Elchonon as “laziness”. This is why a growing number of yeshivos, notably in Lakewood, have completely or partially forgone secular studies starting from the HS level.

Health, you ought to pay attention . All your questions were previously addressed. HS is only done b’dieved because of the secular laws and the fact many baalei batim would place their children in a worse environment if there were no secular studies in HS.

Secondly, *I* didn’t say college is assur. Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Ahron Kotler, etc. etc. did. I merely quoted them. You can learn about anatomy and mathematics, for example, since you need those areas for Torah study – not necessarily parnassa. You don’t need college for parnasssa. Even the goyim acknowledge that.

I explained in an earlier comment Rav Ahron’s shitta on secular studies and how it applies to his talmidim’s yeshivos.

khl, The Torah Temimah was a talmid chochom, but not an Odom Godol. His opinions were not considered as coming from a Daas Torah, though he was well respected for his knowledge. His derech halimud and Hashkofo were influenced by untraditional sources and he sometimes said things (some printed in the Torah Temimah) that may not be said. He was resepected as a highly knowledgable person but not beyond that level.

The Maskilim were very invovled in “correcting” our texts and changing Girsaos that they werent big enough Lamdonim to understand, which happened a lot. The Torah Temimah does this at times too – prefers to change Girsaos where more acceptable solutions are available. His most famous instance is not in the changing of a Girsah but rather his statement that the Makas Choshch in Mitzrayim was not darkness of all, but rather cataracts. Whatever. The Torah Temimah is a very useful sefer, but because he was not a Torah authority, we take what he says with a grain of salt, or, as in the case of the cataracts, we dont take it serisouly at all.

As far as his historical recollections, they, too, are not considered authoritative. Its not necessarily an issue of lying, but rather reliablitiy and accuracy, and his seeing things through his own personal perspective.

Those who really feel that high school studies are not needed should go to mesiftahs that don’t have high school studies, so as not to undermine the high school programs in mesiftahs that do have them. Those who want to stop secular studies before high school can also move to a community in Israel that has that approach.

Another option may be certain stateside Chasidic communities.

Most HS talmidim have these decisions made by their parents, who often are talmidim of Rav Elya, Rav Ahron, Rav Moshe, Rav Shach, etc.

Indeed, though much of this discussion has focused on what ideally would be done, barring the legal and practical difficulties.

There are a lot of secular studies (as pointed out above) that are beneficial in learning Torah. Math, basic biology, chemistry, physics…sure, you don’t need to read Shakespeare, but basic English (grammar, comprehension etc) is important. History of America is important to understand the chesed of this country and how we fit in.

I don’t know why this is so controversial.

American history is surely bittul Torah. For that there is no excuse. Assur lchol hadeios.

American history is surely bittul Torah. For that there is no excuse.

So is posting in the Coffeeroom.

IOW, even if you excuse your posting in the CR as “taking a break” (which is certainly allowed if it will allow you to continue learning with fervor later on), then what is wrong with learning American History (or any other subject for that matter) during the break?

The Wolf

American history is surely bittul Torah. For that there is no excuse. Assur lchol hadeios.

Obviously not “l’chol hadeios” as there are schools that do teach it willingly.

The Wolf