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n0mesorah 1880009, efshar you should think about your username. Of course a bochur has to wear the levush of a ben torah!! This is the mesorah we got from our rebbeim and them from their rebbeim and so on. why did our rebbeim start wearing this levush? ayin above mesivtah aliyah 1882252 with the maharal diskin. But once the gedolim shtelled avek the geder of the levush of a ben torah that becomes the levush,and not some meanningles pointless thing which we happen to comply with. On another note maskim with huju, brooks brothers is the way to roll. gradeh i heard they went bankrupt but they should be able to pull it together. a shtikle hefty on the prices but worth the buck.
u missed the point ofc we need to still be mechbad bochrim im talking as a parent bochrim are the essence of yiddishkeit and also as brewewd cofffe said u have no mesorah… mesorah is the most important part of yiddeshkeit once we shtell avek e matzav we stay with it
Dear Brewed,
All your Rabbeim have the same levush?In regards to what to wear in Yeshiva see what I wrote above #1877655.
No one ‘shrelled avek the geder’. #1880070
What was said from Mahril Diskin translates into that is was always meaning. And it originally had a point. Which was achieved in it’s day. But is now pointless because it is not a shtulz anywhere besides for in Yeshivos.
I disagree that something becomes the levush. Wear whatever works.
Again it was a shvere matzav and the maskalims students wore uniforms and looked like they were very Chashuv and when the baal habatim looked they saw there Chashuve students going to university so Reb Yeshoua leib said that bochurim need to wear nice clothing at that time the bochurim were wearing leftover rags from the baal habatim and were eating the meals by their houses so he said that they are looking at the bochurim and they aren’t gonna have respect we need to have respect for bochurim so he started getting the bochurim nice clothes having meals in Yeshivah and giving a stipend to them what I was trying to say is that to combat the maskalim bochurim need to to establish a matzav of kavod haTorah if bochurim were still wearing rags then what would the matzav of the frume litvish community be now… Do u want to answer that question???
I remember Minchah years ago, when we needed two more Jews for a minyan. The rabbi went outside and came back with two adolescent Jews, dressed in basketball shorts and T-shirts. One of them acted as chazzan. A Jew is a Jew no matter how he or she is dressed. Let’s never forget that.
Would u like to explain yourself @huju bc I don’t see how that has any play in this matter and also a not frum person counts for a Minyan
If I am correctly reading behind hujus? lines, he seems to think like the rest of the non- yeshivish olam that there is no levush. However, he still has the seichel not to blurt out rubbish like an oisvarf.
Dear Mesivta,
I disbelieve a lot of what you wrote. Reb Yehoshua Leib may have said it to explain the trend. He did not institute any standard or style of dress. The Baal Habatim of Lita had enormous respect for the Yeshiva Bochurim. Meals in Yeshivah predated the Haskalah moving into Eastern Europe.Bochurim need to study and learn. Kavod Hatorah is for everyone else. If we still were wearing rags we may have much stronger yeshivos today. Higher standards of dress was not the critical reason for the rebirth of the Yeshivos in the last days of Europe.
Dear Maivin,
I think that those that think the yeshivishe velt has a levush, are newcomers. (Out of towners or Chassidish.) The yeshiveliet with Litvishe grandparents, would say there is no levush, they are just serious about wearing (their own) hats.dear no mesorah
myb u should read some english biographies on gedolim and learn up on our history/mesorahDear Mesivta,
All the time. Do you have a source for this? It sounds overdone.its well known that bochurim dressed very nice back then because they were viewed as unproductive people in society. this isnt much of an argument, just read some history.
“I think that those that think the yeshivishe velt has a levush, are newcomers. (Out of towners or Chassidish.) The yeshiveliet with Litvishe grandparents, would say there is no levush, they are just serious about wearing (their own) hats.”
ha! thats funny. if thats true then why do most mesivtas require white shirts and black pants, why not do like chofetz chaim and let them wear whatever color they want? go into ANY yeshivish yeshiva and youll see only white shirts, because again, its an identification with a certain group. and for sure in eretz yisroel theres no discussion at all, every single litvishe guy wears a white shirt. but even in america, the only people that dont wear white shirts in these communities are the more baalebatishe guys, even then a lot of time in places like lakewood they wear white shirts. its undeniably become a part of the levush, and a person wants to identify with said group just dress like this. i dont really see the problem over here.Dear Simple,
I have no problem if you wear a white shirt or a pink shirt. Whatever works. I never said to wear a pink shirt in Yeshiva. It won’t work. The discussion has moved on to now that we do wear white shirts, does it have significance or not.Historically, there is Slobodka, the Yekkes, and some of the Galicianas. What does this have to do with the Maharil Diskin? I doubt he instituted any change of dress. Though he very possibly said that about it. Which would make it meaningless. And in our day; pointless.
Mesivtas in the US did not require white shirts until the eighties. (Or so I was told. I was also told, that there were more white shirt yeshivos in the sixties then the seventies.)
I hear that Chofetz Chaim switched to white shirts. Because people were assuming that it was not a solid Yeshiva. If it is true, that pretty much destroys your point.
The idea of identifying with Yeshivos based on what you wear, would have been completely absurd to our grandparents. Even though each Yeshiva had it’s own style of dress in those days, anybody not part of the Yeshivah dressing like that, was assumed to just like that particular style. Levush is when you do not have any other connection. The Rebbe does not need the levush. Nor do his dedicated Chassidim. Those that are loosely affiliated benefit the most from a levush. That idea would not make sense in a real yeshivshe velt.
@n0mesorah
well said, i hear your point. also as far as i know chofetz chaim in queens and most of the branches still wear colored shirts or is at least mixed (i visited cc queens last summer). i know that brooklyn makes them wear white shirts but i think thats the only one.
but there exists a metzius today of there being an identity with a white shirt, even though it didnt exist back then. so now that it does exist, it makes sense for a person to put it on if he wants to be a part of that group. what do you mean when you say levush is when you do not have any other connectionDear Simple,
Thank you for the info on CC.I think what we choose to identify with is not a metzius. It is an indication of a metzius. When there is a change that takes the essence out, and only the shell remains, than the levush becomes the actual metzius, because nothing else remains to be more real than the levush.
I meant to say that levush works as a significant factor, when there are very little other factors to compete with. One who is sitting by his gemara day and night, does not the white shirt to mark him as a yeshiva guy. One who cannot sit by a gemara at all, will not be marked as a yeshiva guy even with a white shirt.
If boys/men were able to wear whatever they wanted without social consequence, what do you think would happen? IMHO we would have a lot more shorts, baseball caps, sweatpants. Its not a Torah look.
We want to show how different we are from the goyim.
Girls have tznius which is obvious, boys don’t have something as obvious.
CC boys are, in my limited opinion, a very different breed then most yeshiva boys.
They are very self-made and extremely motivated. Most of them want to stay in klei kodesh forever. So no, they don’t necessarily need a dress code. They will always look Torahdig.
Of course, there are many many boys like this in all yeshivos, but the mainstream yeshivos carry every and all types unlike chafetz chaim, so they have to put in gedarim for the weaker less motivated boys.chofetz chiam boys cant just wear whatever they want. they wear hats and jackets and button down shirts. they just also have the choice wear colored button down shirts, it isnt a free for all lol
right but thats not to say that it doesnt do anything at all. by a person wearing a white shirt he is essentially reminding himself and showing himself that hes a part of a group with a certain set of standards. take for example someone who goes into a workplace or a flipout. people are gonna treat him different if he wears a white shirt, they arent going to discuss certain types of things with him and they wont invite him to certain outings because theres going to be an inherent recognition of what he stands for. also theres how he views himself, when a person puts on that white shirt hes identifying with those standards and so hes much less likely to do certain things. this isnt to say that you cant have a kid who wears a white shirt and does aveiros, of course that exists. but for the majority of people it sets a standard both for themselves and for other people
SERAPH OF BRISK vol 1
thats your reading materialTo masivta aliyah: My point is: even a Jew in basketball attire can be frum, can lead a minyan, not just count for a minyan.
Frankly, many bochurs, and Yeshivish Jews too old to be bochurs, dress in black suit and white shirt, but do not look respectable, because the suit is unpressed, the shirt is unpressed and even untucked, and the tie is loose. And yet they think I am not properly dressed in my well-pressed tan suit, white hat and properly pressed shirt, with no tie in summer.
I think no tie is better than a loose tie. Discuss.
Dear Huju,
Fine with me. It is also fine by me if someone dresses like a beggar. Or dresses like a rainbow. If I had a shul, they could lead the services or whatever else.If you want friends you will have to wear designer clothing in order to be accepted amongst the chevra
For example you should have at least a few pairs of ferragamo shoes , a pair of lululemon pants , black on black tyros for when u play outdoor sports, a jacket with elbow patches, real expensive designer belt and Thomas pink shirts
You will hopefully have friends after all these kinyanimDear Mishnayos,
To be part of the chevrah for a year or five that is a good suggestion. To have friendships, solidify relationships.Dear Simple,
In yeshiva the one who is learning most of the day does not need any reminders. It is the one not in yeshiva who makes the white shirt into a levush.@huju
I don’t chap your point are u upset that bochurim dress nicely or not nicely
@HUJU and @n0mesorah
I don’t know where acceptance comes into this just Bc I dress like a Yeshivah bochur and we are stressing that that is important doesn’t mean if someone comes in dressed like a yuck then we won’t let him daven Chas Vshalom we accept all pp!
The argument is that the levush of a bochur is important and there’s a reason 4 itAnd @nomesorah btw did u read up on the book a very Yesodosidick book stam also
And @nomesorah btw did u read up on the book a very Yesodosidick book stam also
Dear Mesivta,
I will. Thank you.A yeshiva boy is representing the yeshiva with his clothing also and making a chilul Hashem if not dressed properly.
Dear Reb Eliezer,
The yeshiva should be representing the boys, not the other way around. I think that rags should be considered dressing properly.To masivta alawyer: a. What does “chap” mean?
b. I am annoyed – not upset – that frum bochurs in rumpled black suits and rumpled white shirts and unkempt shoes think they look more pious, and are more pious, than a Jew in properly pressed clothing. If proper attire is part of being pious, then they should be attired properly.
c. I don’t think the Torah gives us much guidance on “proper attire.” Twenty years ago, when Microsoft was the world’s most successful company, Microsoft was the arbiter of “proper attire”, which was a button-down shirt opened at the collar, no tie, casual slacks. That style was set by its then president, a very nice gentile. (I know little about Microsoft’s business behavior, and so my characterization of its then president does not reflect Microsoft’s business behavior.)
d. So what role do non-frum and non-Jewish society play in shaping “proper attire” for purposes of Halacha.
“that frum bochurs in rumpled black suits and rumpled white shirts and unkempt shoes think they look more pious, ”
I would bet big money thst that judgement takes place in your head only. It’s the standard racial profiling assumption of the MO/religious zionists on the yeshivish.
Dear Syag,
You have a point. But if you would make the bet, every time a yeshivish dress meets a modern one, you would be broke.Everyone knows someone from the other group that does not fit the stigma at all, and can be a role model for both types.Yet, our brains are trained to put differences with different patterns. (I am trying to say that even though I do not believe I am better, I instinctively identify with more familiar patterns as superior.)
Either way, I think Huju can relax a bit.
When I learnt in Midrashat Torah U’Mada B’Tzion in Portland by the venerated Rabbi of blessed memory Rabbi Dr. Andrew Sinowitz he told us that the proper wear for a bachelor is leopard skin pattern glasses and a I love M.T.M.Z cap a brown suit a yellow shirt a brown tie and sketcher or new balance sneakers. He quoted Bob Dylan song that ” the times are a changin’ and therefore this is proper attire.
Dear Rabbi,
Thanks for the name drop! I cannot remember the last somebody brought up Midrashat Torah U’Mada B’Tzion, or the Great Rabbi Sinowitz.To nomesorah: Not too worry, I’m relaxed. Wine with breakfast does that.
Dear Huju,
Let’s drink to radical dress!@n0mesorah
sorry for the very late reply but i was looking for a specific article. read up on this, rav avigdor miller ztz”l talks about what we were discussing over here (hopefully the mods will let the link through). its kdai to read
https://torasavigdor.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/TETZAVEH_Booklet-Print.pdfDear Simple,
I read the whole booklet. I heard these ideas from some of his shmuessen. Many people like to say this shtickel today. I do not think it works. It even seems contradictory.theres a issur of lo salach achrei rabim lehatos so if the roshei yeshivos and the gedolim are wearing white shirts we shud try to be as much as them like we can and do everything they do also i heard of from a shmuz of the alter of kelm the rosh yeshiva was saying the same way a limo driver wears his uniform we also have to always wear our uniform and thats why he has to wear a frock kaz less then that dosent pas and thats why we have to wear a hat and jacket werever we go kaz thats wat our uniform is
whats contradictory?
Dear Printer,
A limo driver only wears his tux when he has clients.So. if my Rosh Yeshivah smokes, I should also? And I will spend most of the week fundraising. I will mimic his walk and style of speech. Anything else?
If the issur of achrei rabbim lehatos would apply to clothing, we would be forbidden from wearing any clothes assumed by any group, even roshei yeshivos. Thankfully it is inapplicable. It would be very complicated. Maybe only the R”Y should dress like the gedolim.
These kind of ‘proofs’ make me convinced that it does not work.
rav avigdor millers points are almost flawless and backed up by both daas Torah and psychology. so i dont understand the problem over here. please elaborate.
please explain what was contradictory in rav Avigdor Millers pamphlet. id like if it if you could elaborate, because what rav avigdor miller said is much more complicated and fairly different than what printer said
Dear Simple,
If the point of the clothing is to cause the wearer to identify with something, than the clothing itself has no meaning. It is causation of a purpose. Placing the clothing on a mannequin would not indicate what identity it portrays. Only when it is worn by someone involved in an activity does it take on meaning. (Baseball cap and Bigdei kehunah.)Standard dress, is not part of any activity. People who dress a certain way (in a traditional sense) will always wear their outfit, regardless of what the activity is. One wears when they go about their routine, in much the same way all people wear clothing. I am typing and you are typing. That we are dressed differently, does not mean that we are typing differently. Or that my typing serves an overall purpose. The identity would be in the clothing itself. But the above paragraph demonstrated that even clothing designed for a specific task do not have an intrinsic meaning.
Here is how I remember the shtickel from yesterday. The bigdei kehunah identify as the service of Hashem because of their association with the service. That is to say the service itself would not externally demonstrate the purpose without clothing. And why a mets cap is silly because baseball is an activity without an overall purpose, so there is nothing to demonstrate. Yet, when it comes to wearing a black hat or whatever else, it could have such an effect on the wearer that he should be proud that he announces what he identifies with. Where would this effect come from? In the essay, the point is made that people go about everyday life without reflecting on what their actions mean. So it is not the actions or the clothing. It is the mental effort. And that goes into tzitzis. Which is there to affect our considerations. But that is specifically given for that meaning, which makes it an intrinsic part of the clothing.
Here is the contradiction.
On bigdei kehunah. It starts out that the greatness is because of the activity, and what that signifies to the onlooker. But at the end it should be the same as tzitzis, and the meaning is intrinsic to the clothing and intended for the wearer.
On baseball caps. The essay says they are silly because it is just a game. But if any hat makes the thinking wearer proud, than the wearer of the mets cap would be proud when they win. And, the makers of the cap want people to think more about the mets, so it is a similar idea to the paragraph above.
On traditional dress. It would mean something if people would think about it. But it is demonstrated that they do not. That is what tzitzis is for.If anything, Rav Miller ZT”L is concluding that people will identify and be proud of what they wear. Even though clothing itself is not about ‘identifying’ or being proud.
“the essay says they are silly because it is just a game. But if any hat makes the thinking wearer proud, than the wearer of the mets cap would be proud when they win. And, the makers of the cap want people to think more about the mets, so it is a similar idea to the paragraph above.” thats the point, its this very fact that shows that a person by wearing a mets hat is showing chashivus to something worthless. so we see how good a black hat is, the wearer is saying that he gives chashivus to yarei shamayim and Torah by wearing a black hat. rav miller concludes that people wear what they wish to identify with and that has an automatic impact on how the person feels, so therefore a person should dress like a ben Torah. youre reading in between the lines too much when its a pashute article with a very obvious point.
and its for sure similar to tzis tzis, if you look into the reason why were supposed to wear techeiles as well as what looking at tzis tzis does in general its pashut. not sure what that has to do with anything.
and no its not true. rav avigdor miller was saying that its an automatic thing that happens when the kohen gadol puts on the begadim so its showing us the chashivus of wearing begadim putting on the garb of a ben Torah (as well as tzis tzis).and i have to disagree with what you said over here as well “Standard dress, is not part of any activity. People who dress a certain way (in a traditional sense) will always wear their outfit, regardless of what the activity is.” . when a choshuve business man is working, hes not going to wear the same clothes as when hes chilling. he has his work clothes, same with a factory worker and with anyone really. a limo driver isnt going to be wearing his fancy tux when hes at home watching tv. people dress according to what theyre doing. when i go to a friends pool i throw on a tshirt and a bathing suit. when i go to play sports or go hiking il also dress differently, the atmosphere and what youre doing 1000% impact how a person dresses. we even see by having bigdei shabbos and yom tov, theres a different feeling when put on that fresh tie and shabbos hat.
” It would mean something if people would think about it. But it is demonstrated that they do not”. and this is something i disagree with wildly. i know for a fact, from both me and my friends that when a person wears that hat and jacket in public it stops them from doing certain things and talking about certain things. it acts as a barrier and ive seen this in my own life, even if you dont talk about it. and if im ever in an area thats not so religious, you better bet theyre thinking about it. a guy whos in some train station in bk and hes the only jew, and hes rocking a bekishe and payos, you dont think hes thinking about what hes wearing? of course he is
and the mannequin example is a poor one, because a mannequin isnt alive, and has nothing to identify with. i have a question, if you see a guy walking around with a shirt with a certain tv show on it, will you assume hes a fan of that tv show?
Dear Simple,
Straight to your question. I would think nice shirt or not. It does not bother me in the least what he identifies with. I assumed you had a specific show in mind. There is a big chance that I never heard of it. And if it was a specific point to the title of the show, I would care even less if someone was wearing such a statement.The inconsistency in your viewpoint, is that you keep switching from clothing influencing the wearer to clothing being an identification toward the observer. To me, these are opposites. A proof or instance of one, is an example of the other being disregarded. This calls the entire idea of every type of dress has some meaning attached into serious doubt.
Traditional dress means black hat, white shirt, and so on. One who dresses like that, does so at all times, for a wide range of activities.
My take is, that types of clothing are meaningless until people unjustly put meaning to it. Just wear whatever works.
no i didnt mean a specific tv show. i just meant any tv show. obviously if you see a guy wearing a shirt brandishing his favorite show his showing the world hes a fan of said show because hes proud of it. same as with a mets cap or a band shirt or anything of the sort.
its also not an inconsistency because its a two way thing. it serves as both an identification and it has an impact at the same time. like kohen gadol who puts his begadim on it has an impact, and at the same time hes showing the world that hes the kohen gadol and hes identifying with that. whats the contradiction?
and it happens to be specifically for the yeshiva world they almost always dress like that for most activities, but thats because they always want to be identifying with said world all the time. a business man i guarantee you does not chill in his suit and tie, and neither does any worker. so bring a proof from a ben Torah isnt so good, because theyre trying to identify and remind themselves always
and last question. were rav avigdor miller ztz”l and all the other gedolei yisroel wrong in putting meaning into it?
Dear Simple,
We assume that the wearer of a mets cap is a proud baseball fan. Maybe he just likes blue and orange. As I pointed out with regards to a TV show there is messaging in titles that have nothing to do with the object. But I disagree with the whole theory that putting on a hat make the wearer proud. If you want that to be true, than you would get hats that make it true. Meaning, you would buy nice hats that make you feel proud. I doubt the Chazon Ish was proud of his hat.Dear Simple,
The contradiction is not in what people wear or think. As humans we do all kinds of inconsistencies. But clothing (as an object) is either meaningful to the wearer just by what it is. Or, it has meaning because it gives off an impression of the wearer. Our intelligence may deduce from the clothes, something about the person wearing the clothing. But that is nothing to do with the clothing itself.Identifying with the clothing, is a later step. My disagreement is about making this step. I think it is pointless. Tzitzis have an intrinsic meaning. I wear them regardless of what others perceive. That could be true for my entire wardrobe, which for the almost all of it is meaningless. [Just something to wear.] There is no need for me to identify with my tzitzis. Or any other clothes. Maybe people do it because they are lacking something better.
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