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A husband SHOULD call his wife “dear.” It sends a clear message of shalom bayis to the children, and trains them for proper derech eretz and hakoras hatov to one’s spouse. Likewise, the wife should thus address her husband. Are we going so out there, in our zeal to be tzniusdig, that we cannot be verbally and harmlessly affectionate anymore, lest we be thought improper? Do parents who no doubt are used to calling their kids honey, dear, sweetheart, etc. have the kids find it odd if those parents call each other the same things?
I remember R. Yaakov Horowitz telling me one day that it was quite amazing how many couples seem to feel that it’s okay for the kids to see them fight, but not okay to see them being nice (and even affectionate) to each other.
That being said, Eeees and I have always shown affection for each other in front of our kids — and yes, this includes hand-holding, using affectionate terminology (i.e. “dear,” “honey,”), hugging and even kissing.
The Wolf
Not surprised this book has a problem. The penguins are running around without any clothes.
WolfishMusings….scandalous!
Hi this is “Boro Park Girl’s” Father….I’ve read many many Tshuvos from many years past ( in some cases hundreds) by the Gidolei Olam and when referring to their wives, always used the most heartfelt terms of endearment. A wife is a Akeres Habais – V’tzuruch L’chbda Yoser m’Gufo.
Wolf – the way you wrote that, it just means that he saw the situation as ironic, not that he condoned showing affection. If he did indeed say that he thinks its ok, did he specifically take it as far as your examples ?
BPG’s Father – I’m not disagreeing with the idea, but that has nothing to do with the discussion. They safely assumed only adults read their seforim.
To those wondering why they were reading it in 7th grade, I think the OP said one kid read it and her parents wanted it banned from everyone else. Interesting correlation there, which probably means something. (Although the comment about Satmar was completely uncalled for.)
Shakespeare should be out of our schools not because of any words or concepts, but because it’s pointless, dumb and a waste of time. The man must have had a lot of siyata d’shmaya for that to be considered good…
I think the OP said one kid read it her parents wanted it banned from everyone else.
That was the *exact* point of my complaint. If they want to stop their own daughters from reading it, that’s their decision as a parent. It’s NOT up to them, however, to decide what *my* daughter can and cannot read.
The Wolf
Wolf – the way you wrote that, it just means that he saw the situation as ironic, not that he condoned showing affection. If he did indeed say that he thinks its ok, did he specifically take it as far as your examples ?
No, he 100% condoned a man and his wife showing affection in front of their kids.
We did not discuss the specific parameters (i.e. is a hug too far?).
The Wolf
I’m 100% with you on this one, but just to play devil’s advocate for a second, I can hear a parent saying, “I don’t want my kid’s friends to do things that will negatively affect them, in turn affecting my kids.” That’s why some Yeshivos won’t take any kid from a family that (openly admits to) owns a TV. Not saying I agree with the parent in this case – she is way out of line, as you pointed out – but presumably that’s where she’s coming from.
Wolf – I’m sure we could get to the point where we would all agree that the “display of affection” would be inappropriate in front of the children. Without the need for specific examples, how do you judge where the line should be drawn ?
As you’re posting about it, I take it to mean that you feel that this can be clearly understood to be ok, so I imagine you have some clearly defined parameters you can express.
this is ridiculous!!! the book is a good classic book. Instead of banning it, they can just white-out/crossout that word. This is extreme!
It is 100 percent possible for a couple to show affection in a modest way. I never quite understood the rationale against a married couple showing affection towards each other, can you please elaborate Logican
I can hear a parent saying, “I don’t want my kid’s friends to do things that will negatively affect them, in turn affecting my kids.”
If so, ain l’davar sof.
Should I campaign to have a kid kicked out of school because they have a non-frum cousin whom they see at family gatherings because “they might influence my kid’s classmates…*” Or their next-door neighbors? Or their summer camp bunkmates?
The point is that you can’t control everything that influences your kids (much less things that influence other people’s kids). Saying “other people’s kids shouldn’t do X because it might influence my kids” is a fool’s errand.
The Wolf
* True story from personal experience: I grew up not frum (I know… big shocker there!). As a part of her process of divorcing from my father, my mother became frum when I was about 9 years old. I became frum with her.
When looking for a yeshiva for me to enroll me in, one school said that they’d be willing to accept me if she completely cut me off from my father (who remained not frum). She turned them down flat.
Without the need for specific examples, how do you judge where the line should be drawn ?
It probably depends on the couple and their children. I don’t think there is a “hard line” that works for *everyone*. For us, hugging and kissing seem to work out fine. For others, it may not — and they should act accordingly.
The Wolf
I agree Wolf, just wanted to know if you have any thoughts.
I love the story with your mother!
“Ain l’davar sof” – true, but you could just as easily start from the other end – you certainly don’t want your kids being friends with others who do [fill in the blank], so where do I stop and draw the line and say this is too much?
Far east – it is a clear halachah not to show affection publicly, don’t remember chapter and verse without looking it up. It is a very obvious application of Tznius – of course, we could question exactly what could be called “showing affection”. The idea here is that in the privacy of your home it is different, even though its in front of the kids. This is already a question of sechel (or if there are sources, I’m not aware. Never looked into it too much)
Logican- i agree that obviously showing too much affection would be a lack of tznius, however i do feel its important for children to see the parents show a loving relationship (on whatever tznius level is possibe)
Im actually interested in the practical halachah of anyone knows the source please post it
In th home, its important that children see a level of affection between parents, ie. being called dear,holding hands, hugs and pecks on the cheek. BUT, outside your home, why are you flaunting the most personal thing in your life? Do you really need to show the world that you’re attracted to each other? yuch.
far east – I agree with the sentiments. But why does affection need to be shown physically ? If you speak to each other lovingly, with respect, if its clear how you are always trying to please each other, if you compliment, etc. etc. don’t you think that shows the children a good model for marriage ? Why is it necessay for them to say “Ah! My parents express their affection by kissing”.
I’m not saying that it’s wrong – but what’s the big deal ?
Logican- the truth is ive never really though about this before now. A couple should forsure show affection in a non-physical way, one of the reasons being to be a good role model for kids. However i also feel that on some level they should show a physical relationship (whatever that means). Expressing your love for one another physically is an important part of any marriage and i dont think there’s necessarily a reason to hide that. Of course this should be done in a tzniusdik way. Im not saying they should kiss because i honestly dont know the halachah. Again thats why i would like to actually know the halachah
“To show affection physically in a tzniusdige way” sounds pretty funny to me 🙂
not sure why thats funny?
See Rema Even HaEzer 21:5 regarding showing physical affection in front of others.
See Rema Even HaEzer 21:5 regarding showing physical affection in front of others.
We’ve been over this before. It’s far from clear that this is a complete across-the-board prohibition.
1. It’s mentioned as a “yesh omrim” — hardly a unanimous opinion.
2. It’s mentioned parenthetically in an off-topic discussion.
3. The example given (combing through one’s hair) is an *extremely* intimate act — far more so than simply holding hands. It’s possible that the Rema is referring only to acts of that nature.
4. I don’t think the Rema meant it to include in the privacy of one’s own home in front of one’s children.
The Wolf
Wolf- Your second point is totally irrelevent. Who cares if it’s off topic- halacha is halacha.
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