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“Are they presenting themselves as a non-profit to get tax breaks? If so, then they should not operate at a profit. If not, then yes.
The Wolf”
That is not what being a not-for-profit means. Even a not-for-profit has to make money, or else they will go out of business. They will go bankrupt. There is no such thing as a true zero budget.
What Not-for-profit means is that it is not meant to inure benefits to any individual. And the purpose of the business is not for generating a profit, but rather to carry out it’s mission. But to remain in business they do have try to remain in the black.
Aside from recommending Mesila, an organization that is dedicated to help families budget, and perhaps individuals who might do a similar thing, I would have no idea how else to help the OP bring a better match between his income and expenses.
But there is a bigger question, raised in several of the comments. Nearly every single yeshiva I know of engages in fund raising. Yeshivos are not created equal, and their fund raising activities vary. So are the successes of these ventures, with some doing very well and insuring their bank accounts are adequately filled. And without opinions about whether there are people involved who might skim from the top, I am still inclined to see all yeshivos as non-profit organizations.
This may divert the thread to another angle, or may trigger another post. But I am concerned with the desperation with which the yeshiva administrations squeeze and pressure parents. I am alarmed by the tendency to refuse the kids entry to the school building when the family hits on hard times and is late with tuition payments. No, I do look favorably on the vacations, the fancy cars, and similar luxuries being given priority over schar limud. Certainly not. And I recognize the schools’ needs for money. But to disallow kids to come to class because of budgetary pressure? Kids being used as leverage? Something is very wrong.
No, I do look favorably on the vacations, the fancy cars, and similar luxuries being given priority over schar limud.
I assume you mean, “do not”.
But to disallow kids to come to class because of budgetary pressure?
How often do you think this happens?
How often do you think this happens?
I think it is excruciatingly rare. And in the vast majority of yeshivos it is never done. (Whether it is threatened is a separate question.)
Who suffers as a result of its rarity?
Who suffers as a result of its rarity?
Rabbaim and Morohs who don’t get paid on time. Then again, they are the ones who would tell you not to kick out the child.
gavra: Kicking the kids into the street doesn’t help pay the rebbeim and morahs.
Is it really torture?
Joseph – The argument (with which I disagree) is that the parents who actually thought their children would be kicked out would go around collecting for their children to stay in school, or work harder to squeeze more out of what they have, by taking a second job or having the wife work, for example.
Bk613,
Thus my conclusion that charging 10k a yr is an attempt to cover for those who can’t pay full.
How much do you think is cost, and how much to cover for other kids?
I’d like to make some observations and give some perspective on costs of public education and day school/yeshiva tuition.
I live in CT. Some of you know that I am involved in local government. Our town’s education budget (which is middle of the road) is such that the annual per pupil cost is $14,000.
Area (within one hour drive, but inside CT) day school/yeshiva tuition averages $20,000 per student per year.
Students living more than one mile away (in the same town/city as the public school or Jewish school) get transportation provided by the municipality. The towns also pick up the cost of school nurse and many secular textbooks at the Jewish schools.
Public schools pay their staff substantially higher wages.
Why should it cost 25% less to educate a public school student? Yeshivos/Day Schools don’t enjoy economies of scale. They don’t have 1,000-3,000 students in a typical school building. Classes don’t usually have 25-29 students as in public schools. A Yeshiva might need to order 25 copies of a high school math textbook, our high school would need 600. The quantity price is much lower. The same applies to most purchases. The Yeshiva’s grounds will not be maintained (grass cut, snow plowed) by the town’s dept. of public works, etc.
Also, when a Yeshiva buys or builds a school they need to raise all the money to cover the cost. Our state reimburses municipalities about 50% of the cost of new school construction.
Outside NY, Yeshivas/Day schools must be accredited to issue recognizable diplomas and no one would send their children to a school that did not issue such a diploma. This requires that the teachers of secular subjects be certified and qualified, AND that the required class hours of instruction actually take place. My state even mandates how many hours of Physical Education each child receives by grade range.
Having been on the board of three different day schools/yeshivos, I can state that the tuition does not cover the per student cost. It is necessary to constantly fund-raise to cover overhead and improvements.
Our town’s education budget (which is middle of the road) is such that the annual per pupil cost is $14,000…..
Also, when a Yeshiva buys or builds a school they need to raise all the money to cover the cost. Our state reimburses municipalities about 50% of the cost of new school construction.
So the actual public school cost per student is more than $14,000, it’s just partially covered by the state.
Having been on the board of three different day schools/yeshivos, I can state that the tuition does not cover the per student cost. It is necessary to constantly fund-raise to cover overhead and improvements.
I’ve been told that by administrators and board members from NYC yeshivos as well.
Thank you for a very informative post.
tuition like shabbos food is exempt from your cheshban allocated on Rosh hashana so this is what the Aybishter wants from you, does the yeshiva have a kollel?
Mekor?
its a gammara in ???? ?? on the top
?? ???????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?”? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ??
DY,
My guesstimate would be around 7-8k per student. Although I admit that I have no clue how much utilities/maintenance/insurance cost for a school building.
CTLawyer,
Out of town yeshivas have significantly fewer students compared their in town counterparts, so things like the Rebbe’s salary is split among 10 kids as apposed to 23+.
Also find me a NYC yeshiva which has grass, so they save some $ here too 🙂
As far as tuitions go East Ramapo School District has been getting between $24,390.00 – $26,853.00 for years and the public school parents are complaining they are being underfunded.
As far as yeshivas throwing out students whose parents don’t pay full tuition I think it shows money is the most important thing. All the students and their friends will know that this yeshiva considers money first. Who knows if this child who was denied a Jewish education would have become the next R’ Moshe (Great Rosh Yeshiva).
tuition like shabbos food is exempt from your cheshban allocated on Rosh hashana so this is what the Aybishter wants from you, does the yeshiva have a kollel?
Mekor?
its a gammara in ???? ?? on the top
?? ???????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?”? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ??
You make the assumption that tuition = ?????? ???? ?????? ????. It does not.
You make the assumption that tuition = ?????? ???? ?????? ????. It does not.
Why not?
Its hard to defend yeshivas who throw out kids whose parents do pay tutitions, but what are schools supposed to do, Expenses arent free. Even if you pay the rebbes late (if at all) The Bank who owns the mortgage, the Electric company, the Janitor who keeps the place clean (Not paying somone on time is a major offense in secular society) and others can cause a yeshiva to be shut down even if some people pay. But these are relaties.
You make the assumption that tuition = ?????? ???? ?????? ????. It does not.
Why not?
Because tuition covers so much more than the pure cost of teaching your male child Torah. If I were willing to guesstimate, Hotzah is equal (at most) to the Rebbe’s salary divided by the number of children, not the cost of the building, overhead and staff, parnassah studies, and certainly not girls.
So 25 children, 50K salary = 2K for Hotzah at best.
Its hard to defend yeshivas who throw out kids whose parents do pay tutitions
I assume you mean yeshivos who throw out kids whose parents don’t pay tuition, and you just did defend them.
The problem is that some parents will not be motivated to pay tuition unless there’s a real possibility that they won’t be allowed into class.
That being said, I don’t think it happens very often at all.
Maskim to girls’ tuition and parnassah studies (although Ritv”a would include that as well), but building and staff costs are necessary to facilitate Torah learning so would be included.
I said its hard to defend, but its a reality.
Ive actually heard more about that you think, its more common.
I think most people are struggling, the frum lifestyle is expensive and people do have trouble making choices paying yeshiva tutions and other expenses that we can debate if they are nessasry.
I dont know if most outsiders can really surmise if the reason someone cant pay a yeshiva tutions is because they dont want to , or cant properly budget it
but building and staff costs are necessary to facilitate Torah learning
Efshar in an existing school, and even without that there is Hadaffah. Ask a shailah.
Even building fund, if required by the school, should be included. Whether or not the schools charge “ha’adafah” is a matter of debate in this thread (you’ve seen my opinion). Even if they do, since it’s required for admission, it’s an expense I need to pay for my son to learn, so it should be included.
Why ask a shailah – is it nogeia l’ma’aseh? Maybe for ma’aser?
DY – Maybe.
Also if you really hold like this L’maase, the amount of Hotzah should be set as a minimum tuition for all male children, since when the parents pay it the RBSO will pay them back and they don’t lose out.
That being said, we see time and time again how slogans are employed, but when push comes to shove no one is willing to put it into practice (for example, HaKatan’s Zionists).
P.S. By “ha’adafah” I meant in the Mezonos sense, as in anything over the bare minimum needed to run the school.
If by going above the bare minimum you can create a better learning environment, that would be included. Take for example, a/c and heating, indoor plumbing…
As far as taking it l’ma’aseh, do you know too many people who buy a $250 bottle of wine for Shabbos since they’ll get repaid?
DY – exactly. Just like the bottle isn’t covered, who says teacher costs over the bare minimum is covered? Don’t Chazal say “ase Shabbatcha chol val yitztarech l’briyos”, implying that any costs above “chol” are not covered by the RBSO?
If a super wealthy person buys the wine, it is covered. That Gemara isn’t license to go crazy, but anything within reason is covered. My $7 bottle of wine (depending on my means) is covered, although I could use grape juice or Tokay.
Aseh Shabatcha chol is referring to someone receiving tzeddakah money, and I don’t think relevant to this discussion.
If the schools would install crystal chandeliers in the classrooms, it wouldn’t be covered, and if I send my kid in a chauffeured limousine it wouldn’t be covered, but that is not what’s happening.
Who decides what is within reason?
Also, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the gemorah. Even if one is taking Tzedaka, why won’t the RBSO pay reasonable expenses for Shabbos, if that is really truely outside the cheshbon?
Obviously, each individual has to know what’s reasonable for his financial situation, and based on what he’s used to.
I believe I am saying the halachah correctly:
??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????
(??”? ??”? ??”? ?)
DY – I’m not arguing the halacha, but it doesn’t answer the questions. The way I see it, halacha does not recognize in a practical sense the gemorah in Baitza quoted.
In other words, if we’re supposed to be reasonable, what nafka mina does the gemara give us?
First of all, attitude. The people complaining about tuition are either assuming they’re not actually paying hotzo’os Talmud Torah, or not reflecting the attitude the gemara wants us to.
Second, we can, within reason, spend more than the bare minimum on mitzvos with the assurance that it will come back.
1 – I don’t see anywhere or anyone mentioning mitzvahs in general, rather a specific few.
2 – you still haven’t answered why an ani shouldn’t buy chicken for shabbos, which is a reasonable expenditure for shabbos.
3 – we all agreed hotzaos are well less than tuition, even l’shitascha.
DY
So Chicken for shabbos is covered, but Roast Beef for SHabbos isnt covered?
2) It might not be reasonable for him, and more importantly, he shouldn’t come on to tzeddakah money for it.
3) No I didn’t.
ZD, I didn’t say that. I said it depends on the individual.
DY – wow. At least we are both l’shitasaynu 🙂
I see we have already staked out our positions there.
So Chicken for shabbos is covered, but Roast Beef for SHabbos isnt covered?
My wife says they both come out better when roasted open.
Gavra, yes, I remembered that I had once quoted that Ritv”a, but didn’t remember that we had the same exact argument – two years ago.
I have said this before, and I will say it again. Frum Jews have to recognize that their financial model is seriously flawed. Yeshiva education should be replaced by “free” public education, which is paid for by all taxpayers – including frum Jews who do not take advantage of what they are paying for. Jewish education should be conducted separately from secular education. That would radically cut costs. Part of the problem is that yeshivas support big portions of the frum rabbinate and frum educators, and a reduction in total Jewish education spending would hurt those currently engaged in the yeshiva business. Those people are undoubtedly a vocal opponent of frum use of public education.
I recognize that there are good reasons why a separate yeshiva education – including secular and Jewish education under one roof – is better, but poverty has its drawbacks also, and if frum Jews are to flourish, a better financial model is advisable.
1. There are grave spiritual dangers with sending impressionable Jewish children to public school. This is a virtually insurmountable objection.
2. Despite the admitted financial difficulties, difficult as they may be, the Yeshiva system continues to work in America for the past 65+ years.
Reply to Joseph: The Yeshiva system may have “worked” for the past 65 years, but will it work for the next 25? I don’t know, but I am skeptical. In particular, so many learners are coming out of Kollel with little or no skill in the high-earning professions that the supply of wealthy father-in-laws is in jeopardy.
And how many Jews have gone off the derech because they could not afford to live as frum Jews?
Yes, it will work for the next 25 years, the next 50 years and the next 100 years. There have been naysayers predicting a doomsday and apocalypse for the Yeshiva system and its financial wherewithal due to the kollel system and whatnot for every year over the last 65 years. It’s always predicted to fail within 20 more years.
Precious few kollel yungerleit have gone of the derech due to financial circumstances. Indeed, many many more wealthy Jews have gone OTD in order to pursue the American dream of living an upper class lifestyle than have gone off due to poverty. On that argument your should rightfully being arguing against Jews seeking great wealth.
The bigger issue is not if the parents cant pay the tutiton, but if the School cannot pay expenses and is forced to close. There are plenty of bills that have to be paid or else school will close (I think Ive heard of some schools already closing because they could not meet expenses like mortgages or payroll for non-rabbis (Like Janitors or cooks)..(A Rabbi would not go to the Labor department for back-pay a Janitor would))
nfgo……..
You point out very important things:
“so many learners are coming out of Kollel with little or no skill in the high-earning professions”
Today, high earners are in highly specialized professions. Medicine, law, technology,etc.
Gone are the days of the post WWII boom, when American Jewish businessmen/women could make substantial livings as small manufacturers/retailers and repair people. My great grandfather manufactured Neckties in NYC, My Grandfather (his son-in-law) , manufactured dress shirts, other sons in-law made suits, coats and ladies garments. My father’s generation opened regional clothing store chains and sold the products manufactured by the family.
Today, most manufacturing is done overseas in huge cheap labor factories. You can’t start a business on the cheap. Independent regional retailing chains have been gobbled up or destroyed by the national chains. Regional department stores no longer exist. Low internet pricing has destroyed the advantage some independents had (providing individual service).
I may be the oddball here…because I chose to live out of town (as I was raised) and sent my kids to Yeshiva, but insisted that they go on to college and professional schools (both boys and girls) in order that they be able to provide for themselves and their progeny.
This is not to say that I would not support a son or son-in law while learning if he desired…BUT unless we have a substantial Baal Batim class our institutions will not survive.
CTLawyer
There is this feeling in Charedi society that a few geverim will cover the shortfalls in yeshivas and that is sort of what is happening now, but as more and more learn and families get bigger, there will be less and less geverim and they will need to use their family fortunes for their own families rather than communal needs.
Personally I dont know the Reichmans fortune, but there will come a time where they just cannot support everyone else, no matter how much they have
CTLAWYER, other professions have replaced the ones you speak of. Just because some options no longer exist doesn’t mean the only option is college. There are more doctors and lawyers not making big money than there are making big money, and there are still many who were not college educated who are.
We need more kollel yungerleit, not more baalei batim. The percentage of people in longtime kollel is a pittance compared to the working class of Jews, as it is.
Personally I dont know the Reichmans fortune, but there will come a time where they just cannot support everyone else, no matter how much they have
There are many (and bigger) gvirim whose last name is not Reichmann.
If the economy falters, the kollel system will not disappear, or close to it. At worst it will be downsized, and not in numbers (due to population growth) but in percentage.
There are not that many Jewish Billionaires and most of them are not giving money to Yeshivas. I would not bet on people like Mark Zuckerberg , Michael Bloomberg or Mickey Arisol giving Maaser to Brisk anytime soon and Im not sure that Shelden Adelson (The Worlds richest jew) would either
Therefore?
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