Yeshiva Tuition

When the city decides to give more funding to yeshivos, the tuition will go down

And, assuming state funding for yeshivos becomes a reality (which it won’t — but that’s a side issue), how do you know that yeshivos won’t merely raise their tuition 80-100% of the amount that they receive?

The Wolf

please explain yourself.

I would also point out that from what I understand many yeshivot need some actual accounting/book keeping in place. Bringing in more money won’t help you if you don’t have a budget and have no clue where the money is going

wolfish: so if tuition is brought down by half, that’s great, and sorry i meant state not city

OK, so let’s go on to the next step.

1. Do you think that the state is going to step in and give money to private schools? Keep in mind two very important facts:

a. New York State is prohibited (via it’s constitution) from supporting religious education. Therefore, even if the state Legislature *wanted* to pay for yeshiva education, they couldn’t.

b. The state is flat broke. Getting the state to agree to pay millions of dollars for private school education would be tough even in flush years — in times like these, it’s going to be darn near impossible.

The Wolf

I agree with Wolf. If vouchers for working (paying) parents ever kick in the school will say, “oh, the X thousand $ you’ve been paying till now was really X thousand below what it really costs us, but we could’nt ask you for any more. The X we are getting now is going to cover the X thousands you owe us for the last X years.”

Not sure how the schools handle the folks getting the poverty vouchers, but someone who is currently paying $ each month? Get a tution break? Never gonna happen.

It should also be pointed out that the taxes argument is a false one for three reasons:

1. The state is fulfilling it’s educational mandate to you. The mandate is to provide any child in the state with a public school education. The offer is there for you or I to avail ourselves of. The fact that we choose not to avail ourselves of it doesn’t change the fact that they are fulfilling their mandate.

2. We don’t assess taxes based on usage. You pay the same amount for the police department, fire department, EMS, sanitation, etc. regardless of whether you call them every other day or not at all over the course of the year. Likewise, everyone pays for education regardless of whether they have kids in the school, have kids who have since graduated or even never had kids at all.

3. Lastly, you aren’t entitled to your own private institutions. You don’t get to ask the city to fund Hatzoloh because you want a religious ambulance service, do you? You don’t get to ask the city to fund Shomrim because you want a religious police force, right? Likewise, you don’t get to ask the state to fund yeshivos just because you want a religious education.

The Wolf

WolfishMusings

You’re actually wrong on all 3 points

1) while technically we can go to public schools, the fact is, it cost them between 8k and 15k per student per year. if we or any other group says we would like a better school system (forget religion) and it cost us less than what you’re paying now, so help us with 4k a year, per student per year, there is no good reason they can’t or don’t do so.

2) of course taxes are based on usage, if a municipality estimates there are 400 police calls a year, 400 calls for ambulance, and 400 fires per year, they know how much staff they need and that’s part of the taxes.

if the call volume doubled so would the staff and that part of the tax bill.

3) why not? if i feel the public school system does a lousy job, or has some tough kids running around with weapons as long as the alternative is cheaper the state should have no problem with it.

as far as hatzoloh they do get money, not as much as they need, but they do get money

WolfishMusings

You’re actually wrong on all 3 points

1) while technically we can go to public schools, the fact is, it cost them between 8k and 15k per student per year. if we or any other group says we would like a better school system (forget religion) and it cost us less than what you’re paying now, so help us with 4k a year, per student per year, there is no good reason they can’t or don’t do so.

Yes there is a good reason… if it’s a religious school. It’s the State Constitution.

if the call volume doubled so would the staff and that part of the tax bill.

I meant on an individual level. You pay the same amount for the fire department no matter how many times you call them. You can’t say “I’d like a credit on my taxes because I didn’t call the fire department this year.” Likewise, you can’t say “I want a credit on my taxes because my kids don’t go to public school.”

3) why not? if i feel the public school system does a lousy job, or has some tough kids running around with weapons as long as the alternative is cheaper the state should have no problem with it.

Because the state is mandated to provide you with a school. They aren’t mandated to see to it that everyone gets the school they want.

as far as hatzoloh they do get money, not as much as they need, but they do get money

Do they? If so then I stand corrected there. But then again, there’s nothing in the state Constitution prohibiting it.

The Wolf

No accomplishment was ever generated through pessimism. 🙂

“No, but part of the art of politics is the art of picking your fights carefully and not wasting political capital on fights you can’t win.”

Y’know, with that attitude a lot of good laws, that were thought impossible to pass, would never have been signed into law.

it’s not actually against the constitution, they use that as an excuse.

It is. I even quoted the relevant portion above. Or do you think I plucked that out of thin air?

1) they can give the 4k and say it’s for the secular education.

No they can’t. Read the quote above.

2) if we would really enroll in ps, you’ll see how quickly they can change the law, especially when their cost goes sky high.

Won’t happen for several reasons.

1. You’re not going to get people to enroll their kids in public school.

2. Even if you did that, the law can’t be changed overnight. The legislature has to vote on it and then it has to go to the voters (likely on Election Day). Do you think that all those from parents are going to keep their kids in public school between September and November?

3. Even if they did do that, the voters would understand it to be the ploy that it is and would not vote to fund religious private schools.

3) scientology, parents get all tuition as tax deductible, what happened to the law? by us they say no?

No they don’t. The institutions are tax-exempt – and so are yeshivos. But that doesn’t mean that the state is paying the tuition or giving parents tax credits for the tuition.

Please provide a cite that Scientologist parents can deduct their tuition from their state taxes.

The Wolf

I don’t know if i’m allowed to send links here, but i copied and pasted, look at line 9 and 10

What Scientology got in its secret IRS deal

The IRS agreed to dismiss all tax penalties and liens against Scientology organizations for an undisclosed number of years before 1993.

The IRS would grant tax-exempt status to 114 Scientology-related entities in the U.S. This stipulation itself gives Scientology an ongoing financial benefit of an estimated $100 million per year.

The IRS would drop its tax audits of the mother church, the Church of Scientology International (CSI), and 12 other Scientology organizations.

Scientology would receive a special religious education tax deduction for its members. Scientologists can deduct tens — sometimes hundreds — of thousands of dollars per year for their private religious education. This kind of religious education deduction appears not to be available to Catholics, Protestants, or Jews sending their children to private religious schools. The Tax Notes Journal published by the prestigious Tax Analysts’ organization, a nonprofit organization which provides information relating to U.S. tax laws, also noticed this most unusual inequity. According to Tax Analysts, The IRS’s Revenue Ruling 93-73 may give a tax break to the Church of Scientology which is not shared by other churches.

The IRS would cancel payroll taxes and penalties it had assessed against church entities and officials.

The IRS’s Exempt Organizations Technical Division was “instructed not to review the exemption applications filed by the Church of Scientology and its affiliates for compliance with non-profit IRC 501(c)(3) tax regulations.”

The IRS agreed not to audit the church for any year before 1993 and dropped its litigation in pursuit of church records.

chesed,

Based on a WSJ report I found (http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/wj301297.html), the case was the culmination of a long battle where the IRS refused to recognize the Church of Scientology as a real church. Eventually, the IRS relented in 1993.

Based on the report I found, there is no mention of education credits for religious schools. The only “special exemption” I see is where they can deduct costs for auditing — which, in theory, is no different than dedcuting the cost of kibbudim that a person buys in shul.

And, lastly, in any event, the IRS is a federal agency. Education, however, is a state issue. I asked you to provide a cite that Scientologists received credit on their state taxes. You have (so far) failed to do that.

The Wolf

wolf read and learn

hear is part of the paragraph i sent

“Scientologists can deduct tens — sometimes hundreds — of thousands of dollars per year for their private religious education. This kind of religious education deduction appears not to be available to Catholics, Protestants, or Jews sending their children to private religious schools.”

it states clearly they get a tax break for education (tuition), not donations. it even says catholics, protestants, and Jews don’t get that deduction!

Have you actually read the paragraph I quoted?

YES and I’ll say it again and again, if we get money for the “secular studies” the state is NOT paying for anything religious.

we can even have 2 names one for religious studies and one for strictly secular, this way the money goes to the secular school only!!!

OK, Chesedname, let’s start again from the top.

Education is controlled at the state level. It is not controlled at the federal level.

Despite your assertion to the contrary, there IS an amendment in the New York State Constitution. You can even see it for yourself at the following site: http://www.dos.state.ny.us/info/constitution.htm The part you’re looking for is Article XI, section 3.

It says that the state cannot provide funding (except for a few specified services) for a school that teaches religion. It does NOT say that the state cannot fund religious education. What it says is that if a school teaches religion, then NO PART of the school can be funded by the state — not the religious studies, not the secular studies, not the gym, not the arts and crafts — nothing. Once the school teaches religious studies, then the state cannot fund it — period. You’re assertion that they can pay for secular studies runs directly counter to what the amendment actually says. You’re assertion that “it’s not actually against the constitution, they use that as an excuse” is patently false.

The Blaine Amendment (as it is often called) is not likely to be repealed any time soon. Any attempt to repeal it would require ratification by the voters — which likely wouldn’t happen until the next Election Day. So, even if every frum parent in New York enrolled their kids in public school on the first day of school in September (not gonna happen) and you got the Senate and the Assembly to pass the amendment in time to get on the ballot (double not gonna happen) AND all those frum people left their kids in public school until Election Day (sooooooooooo not gonna happen) AND the rest of the electorate in the state doesn’t find out that it’s all a ruse and that all those kids are going back to Yeshiva the day after the amendment passes (also not gonna happen) then you might get state funding for the yeshivos. But, as you can see, this isn’t going to happen anytime soon.

Now that we got the state issues out of the way, let’s go onto the Federal issues.

The IRS is a federal agency, not a state agency. The federal government does not directly fund education and has little say in how the states spend their education money. The IRS certainly does not fund education.

You made the assertion that, due to IRS Revenue Ruling 93-73, Scientologists don’t pay taxes on religious education for their children. You did not provide a link, but merely a few typed paragraphs.

In any event, I took the liberty of actually looking up IRS Revenue Ruling 93-73. I will quote it for you now, in full:

Revenue Ruling 78-189, 1978-1, C.B 68, is obsoleted.

That’s it.

So, I took the liberty of looking up IRS Revenue Ruling 78-189. That one is a bit longer. However, here’s the summary at the start of the ruling:

A “fixed donation” paid to the Church of Scientology for general education courses, religious education courses and “auditing” and processing courses that does not exceed the fair market value of these courses is not a charitable contribution within the meaning of section 170 of the Code.

The long and short of it is that the ruling is that the costs of auditing and training in Scientology were not considered charitable deductions under Section 170 of the IRS Code. “Auditing” is a religious service provided in Scientology. In 1978 the IRS ruled that this is not a legitimate charity and therefore the costs were not deductible. In 1993, they changed their mind. It does not, however, state that Scientologists can now deduct religious education from their federal taxes.

Now, let me provide you with some background on the IRS ruling in 1993.

The Church of Scientology was recognized as a church by the IRS when it was formed. The IRS revoked the Church’s tax-exempt status in the 1960s.

By 1993, the IRS finally agreed to recognize Scientology as a church and make them tax-exempt — just like every other church. When they finally settled the deal in 1993, the Church paid the IRS about $12 million to settle back claims. The IRS basically agreed to call off everything else if the Church dropped its remaining lawsuits against the IRS.

So, in other words, it’s not like the IRS suddenly went up to the Church and said “here, take some free tax credits.” The Church had been fighting for over 20 years to be recognized… well, as a church. The IRS eventually relented. There’s certainly nothing in IRS Revenue Ruling 93-73 (which I quoted above in it’s entirety) that states that Scientologists can deduct their tuition payments.

If you have some other info to present, please do so.

The Wolf

http://www.factnet.org/headlines/give-away.htm

look at 4th period or dot. which states “Scientology would receive a special religious education tax deduction for its members. Scientologists can deduct tens — sometimes hundreds — of thousands of dollars per year for their private religious education. This kind of religious education deduction appears not to be available to Catholics, Protestants, or Jews sending their children to private religious schools. The Tax Notes Journal published by the prestigious Tax Analysts’ organization, a nonprofit organization which provides information relating to U.S. tax laws, also noticed this most unusual inequity. According to Tax Analysts, The IRS’s Revenue Ruling 93-73 may give a tax break to the Church of Scientology which is not shared by other churches.”

Basically they get a tax exemption other religious institutes don’t receive.

As far as NY state law, there are ways around everything, I don’t know why you’re not getting it. If NYS wanted to give us money, there are a million way they can.

1) Change the law without a vote, not every law needs a vote.

2) Make 2 seperate schools one is religous one is not, I mentioned this before you chose to ignore it.

3) Call it “lunch” money or “computers” or pay 4k per child for transportation, again if NYS wanted to give the money they know how to do it.

4) Don’t give the schools money but give parents a break in taxes, for “private” schooling, nothing to do with religion.

The main point I was making, and still trying to make, is we don’t get money because they don’t want to give it, not because it’s illegal.

The main point I was making, and still trying to make, is we don’t get money because they don’t want to give it, not because it’s illegal.

No, you’re wrong.

You provided several “solutions” that are unworkable because they are illegal, politically or religiously impossible or just plain deceitful.

1. You proposed that the frum community flood the public schools to force a change in the law. I showed that that was just not going to happen.
2. You proposed that we change the Constitution without a vote. Illegal.
3. You proposed that yeshivas separate into two schools. No one’s stopping them, but if the “secular school” is owned by a religious institution, then the same problem remains.
4. You proposed that yeshivas get the money under false pretenses. Illegal.

   You proposed that the state give tax credits for private school. Politically difficult in good times; near impossible when the state is broke.

5. You proposed that we be given federal tax credits as the Scientologists are given. I’m not convinced that they are given these credits (I’ve quoted the relevant IRS Revenue Rulings above). Even the report you quoted says that they may get these credits, not that they are actually receiving them. First please show how (based on IRS Revenue Ruling 93-73, which *you* first quoted) Scientologists get these credits before complaining that no one else gets them first.

The Wolf

2) Make 2 seperate schools one is religous one is not, I mentioned this before you chose to ignore it.

I didn’t ignore it. The state isn’t stopping any yeshiva from doing this. If it’s such a good idea, how come not a single yeshiva has done it? Perhaps because the amendment applies not only to schools that teach religion but also to any school (even a secular one) that is owned by a religious institution.

the reason no school is doing it, comes back to my point because the state is not looking to help yeshivas, if they wanted to this could be one of many ways to do it.

3) Call it “lunch” money or “computers” or pay 4k per child for transportation, again if NYS wanted to give the money they know how to do it.

Because the Constitution doesn’t allow for “lunch” money or “computers” money. And transportation is only allowed to cover the actual cost of the transportation.

really? hmmm guess what yeshivas currently get lunch money, and computer money, and book money, and bus money. the reality is we do get millions, just not enough that parents don’t have to pay twice, once as a tax and again to yeshivas.

4) Don’t give the schools money but give parents a break in taxes, for “private” schooling, nothing to do with religion.

That may be workable, but then you have the issue of the fact that it’ll be difficult (if not impossible) to pass through a tax break for private schools when the state is flat broke, not to mention the fact that it would be perceived as a “tax break for the rich” (since private education, whether correctly or not, is closely associated with the rich).

the fact that the state is broke is a silly argument, I’m talking about a general lack of interest on the states part to help with private tuition for many years, they said no when they had millions of extra dollars. so to say today well their broke, that’s not why it won’t work.

They don’t care if it looks like a tax break, don’t you get it everything is politics, if there was a reason to help private schools they would, as of now there is no interest, so they have a hundred reasons they can’t.

Like I’ve said many times already if there is a will here is a way!!!

Chesedname,

Please learn to use the em tag, or at least quotation marks. It’s very difficult to read your posts where your quotation of me just blends into your own remarks.

That being said…

the reason no school is doing it, comes back to my point because the state is not looking to help yeshivas, if they wanted to this could be one of many ways to do it.

You seem to think that splitting the yeshivas up into two schools is somehow the government’s responsibility. It’s not. If a yeshiva wants to try this to get around the state constitution, then they are free to try. No one at the state level is stopping them from splitting their schools in two.

The reason they aren’t doing it is because they can actually the constitution for themselves and see that even a secular school that is owned by a religious organization is ineligible for state funding. Your refusal to see this point is most mind-boggling. You seem to think that if the state wanted to, it could simply wish away the Blaine amendment. But government doesn’t work that way — despite your assertions to the contrary.

really? hmmm guess what yeshivas currently get lunch money, and computer money, and book money, and bus money. the reality is we do get millions, just not enough that parents don’t have to pay twice, once as a tax and again to yeshivas.

Do they? If so, I’d be willing to bet dollars to donuts that the money comes from Federal programs, not state programs (aside from transportation which is specifically exempted from the Blaine Amendment). The state is not giving “millions” to the schools for these programs.

You seem to have this problem of conflating the federal and state governments as if they were one entity. They’re two completely separate forms of government. The Blaine Amendment doesn’t prohibit the feds from giving money for certain programs. It does prohibit the state. Got it?

the fact that the state is broke is a silly argument, I’m talking about a general lack of interest on the states part to help with private tuition for many years, they said no when they had millions of extra dollars. so to say today well their broke, that’s not why it won’t work.

No, the fact that the state is broke is a *very* good argument. If you want the state to kick in money now, then you have to deal with the reality as it is now.

That aside, the voters of New York put the Blaine Amendment into the Constitution. If you want it removed, you have to appeal to the legislators and the voters. That’s the way it works, despite your assertions to the contrary. That’s the democratic process.

However, all is not lost. If you want funding for religious schools from the state, there is a way to do it. Call your legislators. Have an amendment to the state constitution passed. Appeal to the voters and have them vote on it. It’s that simple.

Frankly, your suggestions and comments that we should have the state pay for yeshivos through subterfuge, chicanery and outright fraud (calling money clearly meant for tuition relief “lunch money”) are very disturbing to me. Your complete lack of respect for the rule of law and your lack of understanding of state and federal government workings (such as suggesting that the state government could just ignore the Blaine Amendment if it wanted to) is also troubling.

The Wolf

[em]this will show up in italics[/em]

Replace the “[” with “<“

Replace the “]” with “>”

The Wolf

I must agree, chesed, as one who has not really been following this debate, I cannot understand what is being quoted and what is the response in your last post.

Use quotation-marks at least.

YW Moderator-80

is there anyway we can have colors, underline, bold, different fonts etc.. as an option?

YW Moderator-80

does it take you 5 minutes to post? or being no one is checking what you send, it goes right away? 🙂

It’s not fraud, if the state is willing to give the money, but will do so only if it’s called “lunch money” and THEY KNOW it’s more than lunch cost, it’s not fraud.

Actually, that’s the very definition of fraud.

laws are manipulated like that all the time. (and i don’t even like that word, it’s more like finding a loophole to make something work, and again it happens all the time)

Care to give some of those examples?

the constitution says there should be a separation of church and state, why is the federal government close for a christian holiday?? are they breaking the law?

Good question. I’ll have to research it. I’m almost positive someone must have filed suit on the matter.

How did NYC open an Arab public school with our tax money?

Because “Arab” is not a religion. Just like the Hebrew culture school on Kings Highway. Arab culture and Hebrew culture are taught at those school. Islam and Judaism are not.

maybe that’s another solution have the state build a public school, where we’ll send our kids, have them pay the full cost, and we will rent the building for a few hours a day for anything we want, which will happen to be religious studies.

Don’t know if that’s legal. Yeah, I know… everything is legal to you if you push enough.

The Wolf