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Hi!
Just trying to figure it out. I’ve got babies right now but looking to the future. Can people who have dealt with this share how they got through it? Do yeshivas typically give breaks if you send multiple children to the same school?
Some advice:
Buy a house before your kids start school
Do yeshivas typically give breaks if you send multiple children to the same school?
No. Seriously, if you are first trying to figure it out after you have “babies” (plural), you are mostly too late.
Eizehu Chacham HaRoeah Es Hanolad.
Buy a house now, claim poverty when the time comes and get a scholarship. They won’t reject you just because you have no money.
Most schools are reasonable. If you were to divide the budget by the number of students, one would find the “real” tuition is lower but that the higher rate means those who can pay end up subsidize those who can’t (same system used by colleges).
But also remember we are running am expensively complex school system (basically double of what the goyim spend) without endowments, without government subsidies and in spite of the fact that very frum Jews can hope for the hoigh incomes that our secular cousins earn.
Akuperma, how did you determine that yeshivas spend twice what the goyim do? My district spends approximately $24,000 per child and provides far more in services. It covers maintenance of seven school buildings and a lighted athletic complex for the football team ( includes baseball, tennis and an all-weather running track ). The teachers are paid better and have much better fringe benefits. A full range of academic courses , lab ,arts, athletic teams,and clubs are offered .
Every Succos we are entertained by the high school band. They also provide free transportation to any school within 20 miles of the district.
The modern yeshivas charge more than $24000 and provide less and right wing yeshivas charge s lot less but generally don’t pay the rebbe’s a living wage, let alone benefits
lesschmras:
The public schools originally taught a curriculum very similar to the yeshivos (albeit for their culture). The typical high school graduate could read several languages, was familiar with the arts and culture of western civilization, and was familiar with the classical literature of his culture, typically in the original language (Latin, Greek and Hebrew). They were weak on vocation education, but people managed to get vocational training outside of schools. THEN the goyim ditched the “classical” curriculm and traded it in for a “modern” curriculum focused on employment skills with lots of sports and other fun stuff thrown in. Their students grow up totally ignorant of their own heritage, which might in part explain the lower morale and low morality among our neighbors.
In our community, we still insist on learning the classicial Jewish curriculum, and in addition to it(not instead of it) we add on a “modern” vocational curriculum for the benefit of those who want to work with and for the goyim. Most public school students have at most five academic periods a day, and usually only five days a week. Our students typically are learning eight or nine subjects, six days a week (and our summer “camps” often have a half day of academic work, at the minimum). Our education largely works but it costs a fortune.
Very few yeshivos actually charge $24K per student (if the school as 200 students, that would mean have a budget of $4.8 million). Most yeshivos function on a small fraction of that, which is why they tend to have run down facilities and underpaid teachers – but they still are producing children who remain loyal to Torah and Mitsvos.
Most high school students do not take Latin, Greek or Hebrew, however they do take a foreign langugage usually Spanish or french which are romance languages derived from latin.
‘Fun” stuff has many uses in life, Sports teaches teamwork and working with others. Learning an instrument has other uses.
Unfortunatly many frum school barely teach English and their students are barely literate in English and cant even fill out an application for a job or medical forms
The biggest threat to frum Jewry in the US is yeshiva tuition and the failure of many (but not all) yeshivas to provide the kind of education that enables its graduates to earn the livings they need to afford … yeshiva tuition for the next generation. This is a slow-moving disaster, but it is moving relentlessly, and 20 years from now, it will drive a huge portion of frum Jewry into secular schools and secular life.
ZD: Why are you knocking Yeshiva’s English education when your own English isn’t, exactly, the Queen’s English and is at most on par with a Yeshiva educated English, if even that.
Akuperma, you ignored my point. Yeshivas do not, you claim, spend double what the goyim spend. You denigrate all public schools while asserting that all yeshivas provide quality secular and religious education . Sadly, we know the latter is not the case.
Akuperma, the low salaries paid rebbes is made worse by the fact they have to teach many more days and hours that public school teachers, even if they are paid on time. The yeshiva where my chavrusa teaches recently went four months without a paycheck.
“The yeshiva where my chavrusa teaches recently went four months without a paycheck.”
How can such a yeshiva be considered to be orthodox? It is a chiyuv from the Torah to pay workers on time.
And don’t reply by claiming that they didn’t have the money. I bet they didn’t substitute non-kosher food, which is cheaper than kosher food.
This is inexcusable.
Charlie, do you pasken that a yeshiva can serve treif so they can pay their staff?
The Yeshiva system is in crisis and nobody really can fix it.
The tutitons are too high for most families and Yeshivas arent making enough to pay proper salaries and in many cases ontime salary payments
Charlie, do you pasken that a yeshiva can serve treif so they can pay their staff?
I have to agree with DY here. Out of all the choices they have (closing, firing staff, turning off electricity, etc.) not paying workers may be the best one. When the school’s owner has taken all he can out of his home, sold his silver, and just can’t come up with additional funds, one possible avairah (after asking Da’as Torah, of course) may be the best answer in a bad situation.
I did not say yeshivos spend twice as much as the goyim’s schools. I said the teach twice as many subjects. The number of subjects is a function of teaching a classical curriculum (Torah) and a modern scientific curriculum. When the goyim switched to a modern curriculum, they abandonned their “classical” curriculum, with the result that most goyim are secular ignoramouses about their own culture (with poor language skills, horrible work discipline, and poor midos). Given that most frum Jews are relatively poor, there is no way we could match the goyim’s financially. Given our educational goals, and lack of financially resources, we are doing quite well.
The Yeshiva system is in crisis and nobody really can fix it.
It can be fixed, but no one wants to make the tough decisions that are needed to fix it.
I did not say yeshivos spend twice as much as the goyim’s schools.
Yes you did. Maybe you didn’t mean it, but you said it.
“(basically double of what the goyim spend)”
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yeshiva-tuition-for-large-families#post-614737
one possible avairah
As horrible as is for the families who aren’t getting the income they need, it’s at most not being m’kayem an aseh (assuming they are allocating their funds properly).
It can be fixed, but no one wants to make the tough decisions that are needed to fix it.
How do you think it can be fixed?
The only solution that would work is forcing everyone to pay into a communal fund, but that would never work for many reasons
Among them
1) You cant force non-relgious jews to pay if they live in a religious community
2) The issue of different Hashkafas like Satmar vs MO schools (Do MO’s want to pay for non-zionistc yeshivas that dont teach secular studies vs charedim who do want to pay for secular studies)
3) How do you really know how much money people really have to pay without seeing tax returns, pay stubs and bank accounts
4) Someone might be shunned by MO’s for not paying, will they also be shunned by Satmars for not paying
5) Are you really going to force eldery on fixed incomes to pay
6) Who decides what is “Luxuries” in order to determine what to pay. Should someone give up a new car to pay for the communal fund.
7) and even if you Shun someone and it works, they can just leave and go elsewhere , where they arent shunned . (Shunning is the only real enforcement that there is in the US)
As horrible as is for the families who aren’t getting the income they need, it’s at most not being m’kayem an aseh (assuming they are allocating their funds properly).
And associated Lavim, such as Bal Talin, if they apply. Ask your LOR. But yes, I agree generally.
How do you think it can be fixed?
1: Re-prioritize. The Shulchan Aruch says that Chinuch HaBanim is the most critical Tzedaka (YD 249:16). If people would prioritize giving to Yeshivos for scholarships over giving to Aniyim who walk around collecting, Kupat hair, and the “popular” causes such as a “Rabbaim simcha fund” (like no one else struggles to make simchos), then we would have more money for Yeshivoa.
2: Incentivize – There should be incentives not to request a tuition discount. This would include giving those who pay full tuition recognition at the school dinner and events, the ability to choose teachers, and smaller classes.
3: Enforcement – It’s great that the grandparents want to buy fancy clothes, take their children on trips, and lease new cars for their grandchildren. But if they do, those grandchildren are not eligible for tuition discounts. Yeshivos should consider requesting time or objects in lieu of tuition, and should have the right to request budgets.
4: Mortgage – The Yeshiva should create a program in which someone who is getting a discount but owns a home has a lien placed on the property for the value of the discount, updated each year. That way, even if they don’t get the money now, they will get it when the property changes hands. This will be a huge help 10 – 20 years down the road, when serious money starts coming in.
Just a few ideas I’ve heard, none of which will ever happen.
gavra, does a yeshiva have kadima for tzedaka over a poor Jew whose family is on the verge of starving?
ZD, you really can’t force anyone.
Gavra, there are good reasons why none of those will ever happen. Since you’re being entirely hypothetical anyhow, you could have saved yourself a lot of typing and simply wrote one word: vouchers.
Gavra, therea are good reasons why none of those will ever happen. Since you’re being entirely hypocritical anyhow, you could have saved yourself a lot of typing and simply wrote one word: vouchers.
Not sure how “hypocritical” applies, mind explaining yourself?
I thought about vouchers and didn’t include them, but will with an asterisk. Vouchers require external funding that is not in our control. As the Gemorah terms it “Taloui B’daas Acheirim”. Therefore it can’t be included as a fix.
*However, now that I think about it, Wisconsin has a voucher program in place currently. A possible solution would be for Lakewood Yeshiva (as well as others who are interested) to pick up and move to Wisconsin, which would be helpful in more ways than one.
gavra, does a yeshiva have kadima for tzedaka over a poor Jew whose family is on the verge of starving?
Yes. You give the starving family food (after all, if you give them money they might die from starvation before they can convert it into food) and the Yeshiva money. We throw out so much food that it would not be necessary to spend additional funds.
Typo. I meant hypothetical. Fixed.
Vouchers would work except there is the Blaine amendment in most state not allowing it and even if somehow it became legal, It would let the goverment some control over yeshivas and curriculum. Once they give the money they have more say in what is taught
Typo. I meant hypothetical. Fixed.
!@#$%^&^ spellcheck! 🙂
gavra, and if the family of eight is about to become homeless, do we first give money to the yeshiva or first to insure the family has shelter?
gavra, and if the family of eight is about to become homeless, do we first give money to the yeshiva or first to insure the family has shelter?
What if the reason they will go homeless is the father is a Rebbe who hasnt been paid in 2 months and fell behind on his rent because he didnt have any money
gavra, and if the family of eight is about to become homeless, do we first give money to the yeshiva or first to insure the family has shelter?
You can invite them into your own home, and give the money to Yeshivos.
Go fight with the Shulchan Aruch, not me. I’m done with “what ifs”.
this is all happening when the UJA spends 300 MILLION dollars a year and only 1 million on yeshivas, the rest on Goyim or toeiva tolerance groups and the like.
I am surprised that no one on this thread has blamed the kollel system as hurting the yeshiva ketanas. Not that I am saying that we should not have the kollelim, but if it is taken for granted that any kid that gets married today can expect to have both sides chip in in the thousands of dollars every year, how can that not affect thier ability to pay full tuition for younger siblings? (unless I am missing something and everyone else out there can afford to pay both full tuition and 10k plus in supporting married children)
this is all happening when the UJA spends 300 MILLION dollars a year and only 1 million on yeshivas, the rest on Goyim or toeiva tolerance groups and the like.
And the Russian government spends billions on Vodka. So?
I am surprised that no one on this thread has blamed the kollel system as hurting the yeshiva ketanas.
To the best of my knowledge, discounts are not offered (in my area) to those who support their children after marriage monetarily. Somewhere like Lakewood, it wouldn’t shock me if they would give priority to Kollel, but then that is a choice to support Kollel over Rabbaim, not a problem.
If frum jews donated to UJA then they would have the right to dictate how they spend their funds, if you dont donate then you dont have that right
My point about supporting married children was not only about tuition discounts but it also affect donation dollars. Yeshivas rely heavily on donations. If all of your maaser is being used to provide your kid with a late model camry and bugaboo stroller, you will not have much left to provide your alma matter, your children’s alma matter or your grandchildren’s current school with the donations that they need to pay Rabbeim’s salaries. I guess before we attack the current kollel lifestyle we should really attack the general opulent spending amongst frum Jews. The issue of children’s support is that affects even families that can not afford it.
A late model Camry is not a luxury car nor is a sign of opulence
My point about supporting married children was not only about tuition discounts but it also affect donation dollars. Yeshivas rely heavily on donations. If all of your maaser is being used to provide your kid with a late model camry and bugaboo stroller, you will not have much left to provide your alma matter, your children’s alma matter or your grandchildren’s current school with the donations that they need to pay Rabbeim’s salaries. I guess before we attack the current kollel lifestyle we should really attack the general opulent spending amongst frum Jews. The issue of children’s support is that affects even families that can not afford it.
Why would the UJA (also call the Jewish Federations, etc.) spend money on Torah education. The “raison d’etre” of those groups, and the motivation of their donors is to crush Torah and Yiddishkeit.
“The typical high school graduate could read several languages, was familiar with the arts and culture of western civilization, and was familiar with the classical literature of his culture, typically in the original language (Latin, Greek and Hebrew).”
With the possible exception of Greek Orthodox Christian parochial schools, I have never heard of any high school in the past century teaching Greek. Latin is still often taught but Spanish and French are the most common languages in high schools in America today.
“do you pasken that a yeshiva can serve treif so they can pay their staff?”
I don’t pasken anything. I am not a rabbi. But personally, I would not serve any food at all rather than serve treif, and I would shut down my school rather than not pay my staff (which is illegal under both halachah and secular law).
“It would let the goverment some control over yeshivas and curriculum.”
Nothing wrong with teaching the standard government secular curriculum. This is done in religious schools in much of Europe, Canada, and Israel.
” this is all happening when the UJA spends 300 MILLION dollars a year and only 1 million on yeshivas”
Rabbi Greenberg was right. And when have charedi rabbis done anything like this?
“If frum jews donated to UJA”
Almost all the frum Jews I know who have children are spending essentially all their disposable income on yeshiva tuition.
Charlie Hall……Surprise
“There are 13 Public Schools in the country that offer Ancient Greek
There are 67 Private Schools in the country that offer Ancient Greek
Public:
Belchertown HS – Belchertown, MA
Boston Latin School – Boston, MA
Centennial HS – Roswell, GA
E.O. Smith HS – Storrs, CT
Great Neck North HS – Great Neck, NY
Henry Grady HS – Atlanta, GA
Holbrook Jr/Sr HS – Holbrook, MA
John Handley HS – Winchester, VA
La Jolla High School – La Jolla, CA
Northeast HS – St. Petersburg, FL
Shaker Heights HS – Shaker Heights, OH
Thomas Jefferson School – St. Louis, MO
Towsend Harris HS – Flushing, NY
Wellesley Public Schools – Wellesley, MA
Private:
Belmont Hill School – Belmont, MA
Boston College HS – Dorchester, MA
Boston Latin Academy – Boston, MA
Boston University Academy – Boston, MA
Brooks School – North Andover, MA
Covington Latin School – Covington, KY
Crossroads School Arts/Science – Santa Monica, CA
Fordham Prep School – Bronx, NY
Georgetown Preparatory – North Bethesda, MD
Gilman School – Baltimore, MD
Gonzaga College HS – Washington, DC
Gustavus Adolphus College -St. Peter, MN
Highland School – Warrenton, VA
Horizon HS – Scottsdale, AZ
Jesuit HS – New Orleans, LA
John Carroll Catholic HS, Birmingham, AL
Logos School, Moscow, ID
Loyola Academy – Wilmette, IL
Maret School – Washington, DC
Menlo HS – Menlo Park, CA
Milton Academy – Milton, MA
National Cathedral – Washington, DC
Oratory Prep School – Summit, NJ
Phillips Academy, Andover, MA
Phillips Exeter Academy – Exeter, NH
Randolph Macon Academy – Front Royal, VA
Rockhurst HS – Kansas City, MO
Rye Country Day – Rye, NY
Seton Jr/Sr HS – Manassas, VA
St. Albans School – Washington, DC
St. Ann’s School – Brooklyn, NY
St. Anselm’s Abbey School – Washington, DC
St. Catherine’s School – Richmond, VA
St. Demetrios Greek America – New York, NY
St. Ignatius College Prep – Chicago, IL
St. Louis Priory School – St. Louis, MO
St. Mary’s Episcopal – Memphis, TN
St. Mary’s Academy (Anastasis) – St. Mary’s, KS
St. Mary’s Academy (Dredger) – St. Mary’s, KS
St. Paul’s School – Concord, NH
St. Thomas Episcopal School – Houston, TX
St. Timothy’s Hale School – Raleigh, NC
St. Xavier HS – Cincinnati, OH
Staten Island Academy, Staten Island, NY
The Episcopal Academy – Merion, PA
The Hill School – Pottstown, PA
The Roxbury Latin School – West Roxbury, MA
The Williams School – New London, CT
The Winsor School – Boston, MA
Wakefield Country Day – Flint Hill, VA
Westminister School – Augusta, GA
William Penn Charter School – Philadelphia, PA
I have a niece who attended Townsend Harris in Queens and took Greek…she just graduated Law School and works for the Justice Dept in DC. My sister’s youngest son attended Boston Latin where he took Greek and Latin. He is a Day School Principal…
As for the last century. My father A”H graduated Townsend Harris when it was still in Manhattan in Dec 1938 having 4 years of Greek and Latin. My mother A”H graduated Hunter HS in January 1940 having 4 years of both Greek and Latin. She continued on at Hunter College as a classics major with 4 more years of Greek. She spent more than 40 years as a school principal here on CT having earned a Doctorate in Classics Education from Columbia.
As I’ve written before I went to Yeshiva High School in the mornings and attended public High School in New Haven in the late 1960s. They did not offer Greek. I did take 4 years of modern Hebrew, Latin and two years of Yiddish. In all 12 foreign languages were offered at the time.
Out local public high school offers, Latin, French, Spanish and Mandarin Chinese.
CTLAWYER,
Don’t know where you got your info, but something looked funny. I used to live in the E. O. Smith school district. Its foreign language options are Spanish, French, German, and Latin. No Greek. I confirmed that on its internet site.
So I went to Belchertown HS’s site and its foreign language options are Spanish, French, and Latin.
Winchester Public Schools’ site states that the foreign language options are John Handley High School are Spanish, French, German, and Latin.
Finally I did confirm that Boston Latin School, the oldest public school in America, does offer two years of classical Greek. Thank you for proving me wrong but you might want to let the folks who gave you that info that they should check things out.
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