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Friend of mine has a set of twins that are starting school. This will be her first year of tuition. After meeting with the tuition committees of the schools she was looking in to, she was so shaken up by the prices of tuition.
She said to me that she would like to send her kids to public school where they’ll get a good education and either hire a rebbe/morah for the afternoon, or teach them on her own (or her husband). She said she’d like to do this for a few years – until 3rd or 4th grade.
I told her that it wasnt the ideal choice as her kids would be around other non Jewish children. She had a whole arguement to disprove me and prove how she wasnt so off base and if a whole group of Jewish people did that maybe a school for limudei kodesh would open up in teh afternons with a much lower tuition rate…and on and on.
How would you respond?
well assuming this isnt a troll and your looking for a sincere answer..here is mine.
ultimatley the level or religiousity has to do with what the home life is like. If the home is filled with the love of torah and a proper life style, then there is no reason an arangement like this could not work.
However, there are two issues
1: The Morah or Rebbe would need to be up to snuff and be able to either match or exceed the limudey kodesh subjects so if the kids do transition into a jewish school they will either be on par or better yet ahead of the game.
2: Assuming you havent been shunned for doing whats best for your family, make sure they are exposed to a religious peer group so they can integrate well and not be dependant on their public school classmates for social interaction.
At that age – (Kindergarden to 3rd grade) there really isnt anything to objectionable being taught in public school so all you would really need to do is make sure the child understands that they are special and different and holy.
Just my opinion having made it through over twelve years of Jewish education.
Perhaps look into one of these new charter schools. Its better to be in a public school with themes reflecting Jewish culture than be in a public school that is totally secular.
I had to visit a Public School today to see a special ed class and there was a boy there with a Kippah
I think more and more people with special ed children are sending their kids to public school since the cost is so high
OK.
Just like we pay the price for kosher food, we have to pay the price for education. One feeds our body the other our mind. We have all done it, of course with Hashems help. I’m sure your friend can find a school who will work with them. I do not regret one penny I paid in tuition, my children are now grown and I am enjoying the nachas. I feel that Hashem has rewarded my husband and myself for all the years of self sacrifice, many years we were late on rent, or mortgage, had to work with the utility companies not to shut us off etc., but we made it! we made for our kids.
We recently hosted a couple with a nine month old. She is a lawyer who is staying home with the child. They have already decided to send her to public school so that she doesn’t have to do the 80 hour a week rat race in order to pay day school tuition, and to hire tutors instead. Talk about traditional values! I couldn’t find a good reason to argue with them — there are a lot of good tutors who need money and you can get a lot of tutoring for the cost of day school tuition.
i feel bad for the kids. 🙁 they will miss out on so much if theyre not in a Jewish preschool.. Morahs have a such a big responsibility i wouldn’t trust the public schools to give over the right values to my child, and isn’t that the most imp thing to be careful of when they’re young?
@brothers, What values do you remember from nursery?
If anything the values taught to small children are going to be the same
I.E. dont hurt others, dont take something that isnt yours, be nice to your classmates..etc
Dont make it seem like the second the child enters nursey he is going to be taught all about evolution or toe’ivah marriage.
Nursey in both religious and secular school is just expensive baby sitting except sometimes the sitter is paid by the state.
During Communist times, Jews risked their LIVES to send their children to cheder. They also had to support the melamdim through black market deals, managing to get money in from abroad etc – all of which were considered back then what a Madoff scheme is considered in the US today (grounds for imprisonment or even execution).
Today, those children who learned in basements and hidden huts are grandparents of 20, 30, 50, even 150 or more KAH ken yirbu frum grandchildren. The grandchildren of those who did not make that sacrifice are just “Russians” in EY or Brighton Beach today, with all sorts of halachic status questions.
There is a huge difference between a siddur party and an xmas party, making a lulav out of paper and making a tree out of paper etc etc. And if you don’t think there are books like “Heather Has Two Mommies” in grades K-4, think again.
And there is a huge difference between a sem graduate who comes from a large family, and a secular graduate who has one or two brothers or sisters and a dog, teaching nursery school.
Try Oorah.
Chinuch starts from infancy. One does not learn any real knowledge then, but one learns the appreciation of that knowledge and way of life.
We sent our son to the JCC for nursery and pre-K. It was basically like a public school with many who were not Jewish or religious. He was the only religious kid in his class there. He felt quite uncomfortable and out-of-place, and he did not do well. At 5 he had the personal and social development of a 3 year old. He was very insecure and mistrusting.
After 2 years in a real frum school, he is where he should be. B”H.
My nursery child can make brochos all by herself without me telling her which one to say knows the parsha sand by the sedar and sings shalom alachem fri day night just to give a few examples is it expensive yes would we trade it for anything in the world no chinuch starts at age 3 it says…and who will be there influences…
well turns out my point by point response to @600kilobear was blocked so never mind
Without knowing where you live and what type you are (chassidish, yeshish, MO), but many yeshivas will think twice before accepting a child who went to public school until 3rd grade. Many neighbors will be hesitant to have their children play with yours because who knows what influance the children are getting exposed to at school.(And all these fears that people have will only be doubled or tripled if these marriage laws in NY will get passed and public schools will have to read stories about Steve and Michael and their two daughters…)
I am unfamiliar with the term “Charter Schools”. Can someone please explain. In the province that I live in, the public school system has several bilingual schools. This began because many parents wanted their children to be completely bilingual in both English and French as they are both official languages in Canada. You cannot get a job with the federal government without being bilingual – none. Even to be a tour guide (great summer job for teenagers) at the Mint, you need French. Eventually, other cultural groups asked the government to include their cultures in separate bilingual schools, so what happened is that there are English/Ukrainian (we have a huge Ukrainian population here)schools and other bilingual schools (can’t remember what else). Eventually, a group of parents lobbied for English/Hebrew bilingual schools and now there are two of them. They are not allowed to teach “religous” subjects, but they can teach cultural subjects. These Eng/Heb schools are held in larger facilities and the children are taught several of their subjects in Hebrew. They put on a Chanukah concert for the rest of the school (and the Bubbies and Zadies) and a model seder, etc. They learn about all of the holidays. I am unsure how they can separate the studies of the holidays to just teach culture, but apparently they are able to do it. I do know that most of the parents are thrilled with how the children are taught – and at no cost. Other than Eng/French, the other bilingual schools only go from K-6. Many of the kids in the Hebrew program go from public school to the Jewish community high school and do very well there. Many of the kids also get extra schooling or tutoring during their elementary years to learn more religious studies.
Cleverjewishpun:Just curious do you think it will be so easy for a third or fourth grader to give up all his /her friends what about mixed dancing and parties?No sleepovers at friends, unfiltered internet foul language spoken as everyday words in homes of friends what are you setting such a kid up for? I could maybe hear you till kindergarten/pre1a but till third grade would never work in modern society.
To charliehall: You have said that you live in riverdale,I will go out on a limb and assume that your lawyer friend with the nine month old is in the same social circle or live in Riverdale. SAR Ramaz etc.. charge a ton. There are many schools in other areas while still tough on parents charge much less then 10-25k per kid. For example I have many friends that live in the five towns I would not move there just because of the LIRR cost and combined cost of tuition and taxes being double of brooklyn. Is this lawyer still planning to have fancy vacations or buy expensive clothing everything is about choices in life some are voluntary some are made for us. You say they will hire tutors instead lets assume it at a minimum 150 per week = 600 per month there are many Yeshivas outside of your area that will love to take a child at 6k per year. If you are able to reach out to them try convincing them to move.I am sorry but it does not sound as if they are not sending to Yeshiva due to a real monetary reason but are dissuaded from sending to their prime choices.You or someone else might be able to persuade them otherwise use your Koach. Haztlacha
dear minyan gal charter schools are an abject failure and a plus for assimilation BTW I am very involved in Kiruv and of all people Rabbi Eric Yoffie of reform Judiasm agreed with me a small quote
” For some charter school enthusiasts, these difficulties may be acknowledged, but the argument is made that the Hebrew language is in any case the key element of Jewish instruction and is sufficient to create a lasting Jewish identity. As a lifelong lover, speaker and champion of Hebrew, I cannot agree. Hebrew alone cannot sustain Jewish life, and the power of Hebrew comes as much from unlocking the treasures of the Jewish religious tradition as it does from creating ties to Jewish culture and the Jewish state. One need only look at the experience of the more than half a million emigrants from Israel in America. Those who do not make religious connections and who hope to maintain their Judaism solely through Hebrew language are the first to assimilate.
The high costs of day school are a legitimate concern, but we should not give up on day schools and surely we must support those day schools that we have. If philanthropists and communal leaders are interested in finding additional vehicles to assure our Jewish future, I recommend turning to projects with a proven record of success. For example, we could undertake as a community to provide every Jewish child with two years of Jewish nursery school and two summers of Jewish camping. Reasonably priced and freed from the constraints of public financing, these educational experiences can do what charter schools cannot: they can deepen Jewish identity, strengthen Jewish peoplehood and produce proud, affirming, committed Jewish children.”
Rabbi Eric Yoffie is president of the Union for Reform Judaism.
Eric Yoffie is president of the Union for Reform Judaism.
Was. He was just replaced by Richard Jacobs who is active in J Street (the Yevsektzia of today). Yoffie was truly a tinok shenishba with a Jewish heart who unfortunately ended up where he did because of the times in which he lived. Even reform does not want J-street Jacobs.
And what Yoffie said could not be more true. Many an Israeli emigrant or his offspring has intermarried. After all, they were taught to become nothing more than members of a new nation called Israeli that is as artificial as another new nation that was called Soviet.
Those who keep even their “Israeli” identity, even Hebrew for another generation, are the many Israeli baalei tshuva abroad or those who are at least traditional. What’s more, the baalei tshuva often go back to EY to live there bekedusha instead of the way they lived there before their yerida letzorech aliya.
600kilobear: Cut the nonsense. Plenty of the Russians with sfekos in their status in Brighton Beach also have grandparents who sacrificed to send their kids to cheder. You want to meet a couple. I know plenty. Also all of the most ehrliche people I know in my father’s age group are frum people who grew up frum but went to public school, including him.
cleverJewish- it’s like what golden mom was saying and more
and also i remember MANY values from preschool ex “tov li Torat picha mealfe zahav vakesef”-sang this at my chumash play…there are tons like that..
we learn how important a child’s upbringing is, like i learned the difference between when you tell a child, “don’t steal, how would you feel if someone stole from you?” and
“Hashem, the same G-d who created us and gives us life every second , says that we cannot steal.”…i would not trust non-Jews with these types of lessons.
There are a lot of practical issues with sending a very young child to public school as well, such as Kashrus. But the main issue as many have said is that Jewish education is not about simply learning Torah with a tutor — it is an entire experience. The messages sent throughout the day in a Yeshiva are that our lives revolve around Torah and doing what Hashem wants, and preschool is the best place to introduce these lasting ideas. When a five year old learns parshat hashavuah and they make projects about Avraham Avinu’s hachnosos orchim, or Rivka Immeinu’s chessed, it becomes a part of them.
Additionally the social issue is a big one. You are put in a situation where either your child’s closest friends will be the goyim she spends her day with, or she must always feel like an outsider. Neither choice sounds like a good one in terms of giving your child a strong Jewish identity and pride. Additionally, half of the “education” our kids receive in school is from their peers, and as much as the krumkeit of the outside world is unfortunately seeping into our schools as well, there is no comparison even to public schools in “good” neighborhoods as far as what the kids are exposed to. I worked for many years in the NYC public school system in a very good district, and never failed to be shocked at what I heard.
miritcha — as someone already posted, if it is really a financial decision, let them contact Oorah.
cleverjewishpun — For the record I wouldn’t leave my kids with a not frum babysitter with non-Jewish kids on a regular basis either, so the argument that “it’s just babysitting” doesn’t change anything for me. The environment and messages a child receives when they’re young make a big difference.
charliehall — Maybe this family should home school their child completely, instead of just for Jewish studies. That would be a cheaper option that allows the mother to be home with her kids without risking putting young children into an environment that does not support Jewish values.
Itchesrulik: BH your father accomplished but how many did not remain frum or their frumkiet did not last more then a generation. It is also impossible to compare the public school enviroment today to those of the time your father went.Even in younger grades today everything is allowed everything taught and everything permitted and remember the kids have access to everything in their homes, are these the homes you would feel comfortable sending your kids to play by?
I will agree with you though I am sure your father is very ehrlich as are his friends.But, that has nothing to do with public school. It has to do with the kochos that went into him, and the appreciation by many grandparents after the holocaust to have a strong Jewish identity instilled in their children.
There are literally tears in my eyes from reading about parents willing to sacrifice their children for money. I usually have a logical response to a viewpoint which I don’t agree with, but I am at a loss here.
How someone could even think of comparing an early childhood experience among warm, Yiddishe moros and rebbeim to secular teachers (as nice as they may be) is beyond me – I guess my sense of Yiddishe values is just very different than theirs.
There’s a community (in the NY area) of immigrants who came from a country with little Jewish education. The rabbonim in that community are tearing their hair out because many otherwise shomrei mitzvos don’t understand the value of sending their children to yeshiva and Bais Yaakov. The public schools are free, (and in that neighborhood are high quality) so they spend their money on fancy houses, cars and vacations instead of investing it in their children.
The older children are already intermarrying, and the younger ones are sadly on the way.
Yes, Tov li Toras picha mei’alfei zahav vakesef… not just a song – a way of life.
DaasYochid: In that case, I can’t understand why some Yeshivos/BY’s don’t offer these immigrants children a free Yiddish education, to keep them out of PS. Yes, it’s expensive, but to let Jewish children go to PS — even if the parents don’t value a Jewish education — is a much much crime.
“Just like we pay the price for kosher food, we have to pay the price for education. One feeds our body the other our mind. We have all done it, of course with Hashems help. I’m sure your friend can find a school who will work with them. I do not regret one penny I paid in tuition, my children are now grown and I am enjoying the nachas. I feel that Hashem has rewarded my husband and myself for all the years of self sacrifice, many years we were late on rent, or mortgage, had to work with the utility companies not to shut us off etc., but we made it! we made for our kids.”
not everyone can afford the price of kosher food. i know lots of people who will skip out on some things because they are just too expensive (and im not talking about special treats, im talking about things that would go into a regular shopping) also, this is one of the reasons why i almost never buy jewish brands- i have a hard enough time affording the regular kosher brans, im not willing to pay the inflated price for a jewish brand.
not everyone lives in a place where there are options, or options which they would be comfortable with. for example, lakewood has tons of schools, but for the life of me i cant find one that would fit my children’s and my family’s needs.
“i feel bad for the kids. 🙁 they will miss out on so much if theyre not in a Jewish preschool.. Morahs have a such a big responsibility i wouldn’t trust the public schools to give over the right values to my child, and isn’t that the most imp thing to be careful of when they’re young?”
its true, morahs do have a big responsibility, but mommy/emma and daddy/abba/tatty have an even bigger responsibility. your job as a parent is to instill in your children the right values, no matter where they go to school. THAT is the most important thing.
“There is a huge difference between a siddur party and an xmas party, making a lulav out of paper and making a tree out of paper etc etc. And if you don’t think there are books like “Heather Has Two Mommies” in grades K-4, think again.
And there is a huge difference between a sem graduate who comes from a large family, and a secular graduate who has one or two brothers or sisters and a dog, teaching nursery school.”
there is a difference between all of those things, you are right, but these days many preschools wont make a christmas play or tree precisely BECAUSE many of the kids in the class are of other religions. as for the books, no matter where your child is, you always need to check out what they have access to BEFORE they access it. if you are uncomfortable with something, bring it up to the teacher. i have dont this quite a few times, both in my son’s class and in the classrooms in which i have worked.
oh and one more thing. i would much rather have a sem graduate as an assistant in my childs class rather than as the teacher. i dont think that a sem graduate has enough knowledge or experience to be the one calling the shots. a college graduate, on the other hand, has spent many many years in school, and also usually has MUCH more classroom experience.
“We sent our son to the JCC for nursery and pre-K. It was basically like a public school with many who were not Jewish or religious. He was the only religious kid in his class there. He felt quite uncomfortable and out-of-place, and he did not do well. At 5 he had the personal and social development of a 3 year old. He was very insecure and mistrusting.”
this is not typical though. your child was unhappy, and for whatever reason the way it manifested itself was in stunted social development. a typical child will do just fine in a public school setting.
“My nursery child can make brochos all by herself without me telling her which one to say knows the parsha sand by the sedar and sings shalom alachem fri day night just to give a few examples is it expensive yes would we trade it for anything in the world no chinuch starts at age 3 it says…and who will be there influences…”
so does mine….he learned it all from him mommy and daddy. he made a lulav and esrog and succa, menorah, had a tu b’shvat seder, made a grager and megilla, made a hagada, made lots of flowers and a sefer torah for shavuos…..and he is NOT in yeshiva.
as to who will be their influence, all of the negative language and behaviors that he has picked up from school this year have all come from the frum kids in his class. i know this, because when i ask him who taught him, he tells me their names, and i of course follow it up with the teacher to see whats going on.
When I gave my explanation about the English/Hebrew bilingual schools, I was not endorsing it, just explaining it. There are many parents who cannot (or around here, will not) pay tuition and IMHO, this is better than absolutely nothing at all. At least they are with other Jewish kids all day at school – in the classroom, at least. Many lifelong friendships are formed during the elementary school days, so it would be interesting to see the statistics in several years to find out what the children educated in these schools have achieved.
“this is not typical though. your child was unhappy, and for whatever reason the way it manifested itself was in stunted social development. a typical child will do just fine in a public school setting. “
A child knows when he’s different and that usually makes them feel uncomfortable. My child may have been more uncomfortable than others. He became comfortable as soon as he started a frum school.
“you always need to check out what they have access to BEFORE they access it.”
That’s not so easy. You can’t always know what the teachers are doing. Did you ask the art teacher what projects they are doing? or the music teacher about the songs? or what they might see in the library? If I were a teacher, I would be annoyed if a parent was always asking about my materials. As you said, these teachers have much education and experience. They (like any other professional) don’t want an outsider telling them what to do. They will eventually learn to say what you want to hear.
My son’s preschool was expensive (15k) and basically like a public school, and unfortunately needed for us to both work. I wish I had other real options.
anonymrs, you seem to justify your position a lot and have a lot of contempt for the Jewish preschools. any guilt?
Yes, Tov li Toras picha mei’alfei zahav vakesef… not just a song – a way of life.
Blessed is the community that does not charge too much for tuition. However, in the case where the parents literally can not pay what is required (or they will lose their home, for example), the responsibility is on the Hanhala for charging what they did, not the parents for not lying and saying they will pay when they knew they could not.
Most, if not all, yeshivas and Beis Yaakov’s will give substantial deductions when necessary.
It is unheard of for a child to be forced into public school because of genuine inability to pay.
It is unheard of for a child to be forced into public school because of genuine inability to pay.
Unless the Hanhala decides it is not genuine, and the parent feels that it is. BH in my community I don’t see it, but I can’t speak for other areas. Shein is right. Why doesn’t the community there step up?
And yes, there is no good solution for the problem.
Sorry for getting off topic.
“anonymrs, you seem to justify your position a lot and have a lot of contempt for the Jewish preschools. any guilt?”
i am not justifying anything, and i dont have any contempt for jewish preschools. what i dont like is when people say that the only way to educate a frum child is by sending him/her to a frum school, where the tuition is astronomical. it is very possible to give your child a wonderful frum education at home while they attend public school. when i was growing up, the public school near my house had more jewish kids than not. its not my first choice, but if thats whats best for my child, then that is what i will do and i will duplement to the best of my ability, be that myself and my husband, or hiring a teacher or rebbi or tutor or whatever.
if parents decide for whatever reason that public school is the best option, why must they be made to feel guilty about it?
by the way, i dont understand the guilt comment- what would i have to feel guilty about?
BH in my community I don’t see it
Neither do I, and I highly doubt anyone does. And that’s the bottom line for this discussion (I agree not to rehash our related discussions from the past ?).
minyan gal: you had mentioned about them putting on a play modeling a seder and chanuka; That would never fly in america due to stricter separation of church and state a charter school here is just another public school. By the charter school here in brooklyn, there was a poster in a classroom of a man blowing a shofar. The poster was deemed to be a religious symbol and the poster taken down. Also the demographics are different in the charter school here half are non jewish students
what i dont like is when people say that the only way to educate a frum child is by sending him/her to a frum school
well then, youre not going to like this:
the only way to educate a frum child is by sending him/her to a frum school.
if you are forced by circumstances to send him to a public school, well what can you do?
but that is a very poor and dangerous thing to do to a Jewish Neshama, and it is a pity if someone is forced to do so.
if parents decide for whatever reason that public school is the best option, why must they be made to feel guilty about it?
Because they are messing up their kids’ neshamos for selfish reasons.
DY: I Hope so 🙂
Mr. 80: I would put it in the negative: the way NOT to educate a frum child is by sending him/her to a public school.
Homeschooling by choice is something that has been posted many times here on the CR.
thanks gavra
youre right
but its one of those Gemorrah things
if you notice in the first half of my post the raisha was worded (in the quote) a certain way so i worded the saifa the same way.
People condemn those who send their kids to public school BUT
What about if the kid is Special Needs and the tuition can cost $40K a year
I know quite a few who send their kids to public school because there is no way they can afford that money and discounts are hard to get
no one condemned the parents in a case of necessity, or lack of understanding of the dangers.
do you ever miss an opportunity to condemn anything more frum than you? seems to be a constant pattern in your posts.
Children with special needs are an exception, because it’s often the case that their tremendous needs can only be met in the public school setting. Otherwise, it’s simply too big a risk to take. Work with the tuition committee, and get Rabbanim involved to help negotiate an affordable rate.
It is true that, years ago, attending public school was commonplace. However, public school is not what it was in the 1920’s when Rav Gifter, ZT”L, attended through age 13. At an Agudah Convention in the late 1980’s, Rav Gifter told about the time when he said a minor expletive in class, and the public school teacher promptly washed his mouth out with soap! Needless to say, it’s not like that today!
Chabad has enough ahavas Yisroel to take them
Chabad does have enough ahavas Yirsroel to take children, but where I live they don’t have a school. They have a brand new Jewish Learning Centre where they have a daycare, a preschool and adult education classes and of course, a shul. It kind of leaves school aged children to find other alternatives.
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