Yeridas Hadoros

Every generation is tasked with a unique mission and is given the powers needed to accomplish it. We are working through the world and refining it. Once we are done= Geula.

Yeridas hadoros is because each generation had an easier / lower mission to work on than the generation before so they get progressively weaker as well, as our power matches our mission.

For example, the generations of the Tannaim and AmoraiMy were tasked with refining the intellect of the world’s. They were brilliant, and the nations of the world were as well. That was the time of philosophy.

Contrast that for today and no one cares for Aristotle…

Since we don’t need to refine the wisdom of the world anymore, we are lacking in the wisdom they had… There is alot more to be said but here’s for starters.

We see here the difference between Yidden and Goyim. Yidden look back at our Zaidas and earlier and crow how much greater than us they were. Each earlier dor was greater than each later ones. They wrote the Mishna, the Gemorah, Rashi, Tosfos, Rambam, Chasam Sofer, etc. Each later generation didn’t reach the greatness of the earlier ones.

By the goyim it is punkt fakert. They each tell how great they are and how their grandparents and earlier generations were Neanderthals and we are the great ones. We invented computers something they never dreamed of! Their parents said we invented robots something the earlier generations wouldn’t even think of. Earlier they said we invented electricity something our ancestors couldn’t even conceptualize. Before that they had the industrial revolution, showing how great they were. So each one sees themselves greater than their ancestors. We Yidden see our ancestors much greater than ourselves.

@midwesterner
Not sure I understand your question. But yes today our avoda is just to do the right thing! (And in the world people just do what they want, even if they know it isn’t good for them)

Moshiach is about to come so the world is refined (can always get better) We’re at the lowest level of refinement – just do what’s right without being a great chochom.

@daasyochid true but how is that relevant here?

I agree significantly with Joseph here. As a nation we may aspire to more or better or higher levels, but we as Jews have, it seems, always recognized that we stand on the shoulders of Giants. I think it comes from our prayers and supplications that have always first reminded ourselves and depended on HKBH’s recognition of the Tzidkus of our Avos . That degree of humility though not always evenly held is a distinction that if other groups do so I think they have been influenced by the Jewish experience.

What, though, are the implications of the concept of Yeridas Hadoros? Are we capable of less? Are our needs more? Can we say that now when there are more Jews learning more Torah than at any time in our entire history, more Jewish Hashpo’oh on the Umos Haolom, and more inklings that the geula is nearing that we have descended to a level of tumah below our ancestors? Maybe. Maybe we are closer to the geula because we need it more now than ever. Maybe we need to measure ourselves against our potential, and that is where we are lower. Yes, there is more Torah being learned than ever, but what could we have accomplished, and not yet reached. Yes, there is more Jewish Hashpo’oh in the world, but could we not have accomplished more, brought more peace or more righteousness to the world?

I think that the most logical understanding of yeridas hadoros is this. Our potential grows, but our accomplishments do not keep pace, or even diminish. And with every passing generation, the potential gap grows, with our accomplishments as a Jewish generation achieving only part of what we could have and part of what our parents could have. We have more resources and opportunities now. How are we going to use them?

CS, are you trying to claim that the world is a better place today than, say, during the time of the Beis HaMikdash or during the time of Har Sinai?

The world as a whole – definitely. Our personal spiritual heights, no that’s what this thread is about…

But yes the physicality of this world is much more refined.

Like in your examples:
The time of Shlomo hamelech is compared to the time of moshiach,as all the nations were at peace with us, but the fiend is that then the nations were temporarily overwhelmed by the kedusha emanating from eretz Yisrael, but still remained the same evil nations, and so it didn’t last.

Now however, the nations themselves are allot more refined, they admire chessed more than brute strength etc, and some are already serving Hashem.

When moshiach comes he will finish it off with “Az ehpoch el hoamim safa brura likro *kulam* bshem Hashem.” Bimheira vyameinu amen!

The time of bais shaini was pretty bad. And towards the end of the first also
Hence them both being destroyed. There were great times for short periods here and there. But lots of bad too.

And just wanted to clarify, this is NOT an attack on the mods at all – every site has the right to post what they want – just with col for example, I will not post more than happy comments on happy news because I know anything not to their liking is unlikely to go through. Just trying to figure out what’s acceptable so I don’t waste anyone’s time 🙂

So for the matan Torah one just consider our bodies weren’t able to handle the revelation (that’s why our neshamos flew out) and when moshiach comes we will have the greatest revelations from Hashem in our bodies, no problem.

And that will be because we have refined our physicality all these years.

I’m leaving out an important point because it’s not pc but I hope this helps somewhat.

CS, I said Nazi Germany. That was in very recent times. The Russian pograms wasn’t all too long ago either. Even Tach V’tat is within memory. Crusades is a bit longer ago. When did this great utopian “Western Democracy” that you so love begin?

Joseph, the United States, where Jews are allowed to attend any shul, yeshiva and even incorporate as a political entity ( KJ, New Square ) to practice Judaism as tjeey see fit.

First you said matan Torah and bayis sheini. I was addressing that.

As far as anti semetism yes it is always brewing and an outburst could happen today in America cvs if Hashem didn’t protect us…

Esav sonei lyaakov and the won’t be a complete end to anti semetism until moshiach comes.

That being said there are more Chassidei umos haolam today – there are whole movements of christians United with usual and Jews against anti semetism than ever before – there are also even bnei noach today.

Kindness is valued in the world today whereas it wasn’t in past times. As far as the cossaks etc – yes our Avodas Hashem, Torah and mitzvos has continued to refine the world since then, and bh it is much better.

As for Nazi Germany – the nazis yemach shmom also prided themselves on kindness, education etc on being civilised, but when it came to the Jews, all of a sudden none of those values applied.

But even then the world valued civilised behaviour even as it allowed incredible anti semetism to happen, as it would today if it was allowed.

Moshiach will fix this of course, but today the difference between the world now and eras past is that the world today world be happy to serve Hashem with moshiach as the ultimate civilised, G-dly leader, leading the way.

The days where cruelty, paganism, and even immorality were ideals to uphold are far gone.

BITP, the world at large and general society spit at their “ancient” ancestors as barbarians and nowhere near as advanced and civilized as themselves.

Good q op. Im if anyone has any legitimate sources on this…ya that would be great….

“The days where cruelty, paganism, and even immorality were ideals to uphold are far gone.”

I guess you don’t read the news. Cruelty seems to be dished out on a regular basis in many parts of the world. Immorality has been put on a pedestal to admire. OK, I’ll give you paganism (although there are places in the world it is still practiced). But the western world is far less religious nowadays than it was in the past. Is atheism any better?

There is a fascinating piece of Rav Tzadok HaKohen ZTL of Lublin explaining why there are times when the Gadolim are of a lower level and the rest is of a higher level, and some times the other way around.

Why was it after Navuah ceased did the Chachmos haTorah of the Anshei Kenese haGdolah and Talmud emerge?

He basically explains that there is a concept that Dargos and Chachmoh is of Klal Yisrael as one, and some times it is as Idchei m’Kamei Gavra, the dargos are sort of condensed into a few, and there are times when all is spread out among all of Klal Yisrael.

See below link for more, he explains it and elaborates in other places as well (As of now, I do not remember where…)
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14377&st=&pgnum=10

Anyhow this is off topic to put in short –

Yes we are nothing compared to our ancestors (although the world has become a more refined place and is ready for moshiach.)

Avraham frieds song “On giants shoulders” expresses this theme quite well :

“Holy and pure
Our fathers were
Giants, righteous men
We are strong compared to them

But our deeds
Upon their deeds
Together we will bring
Moshiach our king

And we will do it brothers
After us there will be no others
You and I will do
What giants wanted to

So stand and take the credit
Golus! Well be the ones to end it
Though were small were standing tall like soldiers

Riding high because we’re on our father’s shoulders….

Its up to us
Our fathers started long ago
….
Waiting for us to follow…

Great song!

@gaon interesting.

@wtp if you notice the wording I used is ideals to be admired. Cruelty exists but it isn’t looked up to a an ideal anymore. (Besides in the Muslim world and they would also be ready for moshiach because in their world irs all about serving G-d even if He asks your to do the weirdest Cruel things. They just need to be corrected on what HE wants.)

Science isn’t the absolute god replacing religion as it used to be regarded.

Even immorality – is seen in a confused way – they don’t see objectification of women or assault against them as a good thing (think priestesses of idol worship temples in the past) they just don’t mind if people do what they want as long as they don’t hurt anyone.

But many many of the youth are hurt from this hedonistic lifestyle as if it’s against Torah, it goes against the fabric of the world, so it’s impossible for it to work well.

And there are many voices speaking up against it. Modesty is more in fashion now. So I would say they’re confused but don’t hold immorality as an ideal.

The only places you will probably find that is Hollywood and california, not mainstream goyim, and with the recent scandal even they are rethinking their ideals…

edited

ychusdik, yeridos hadoros would compel us to compare those thinkers to minds of the past, not just ask if they’re intelligent or not. It also clear from your post you haven’t read their works(names are incorrect – not just spelling – and not differentiating agnostic and atheist even though you mention both terms, no mention of any particular work), it’s disingenuous to call others out.

Ah, K-Cup, aren’t we clever. Typing on my IPhone and I used Bertram instead of Bertrand, and dropped an L in his last name.

All of the authors I mentioned read the same authors of the past and have quoted them, on both the theistic and atheistic sides. I don’t need to compare if they are doing it themselves and involving past philosophies in their works. I would have thought that was obvious, but alas, no.

I’ve actually had the experience of hearing Christopher Hitchens speak in person – though it was about politics and not about religion. His adversarial report on Mother Theresa for thew Vatican in opposing her beatification was brave and eloquent. I read his columns in the Nation, Vanity Fair, and The Atlantic, and of the several books of his in my library, the best is “Why Orwell Matters”.

I’ve read almost everything Orwell ever wrote, and his “Politics and the English Language” has been influencing how I write for almost 30 years. I’ve even lectured on using its principles in current political advocacy to dozens of university aged participants in programs I have run. His novels are some of my most dog-eared paperbacks.

I only own one of Bertrand Russell’s books, “A History of Western Philosophy” but I have read several of his more well known books and essays on philosophy, science and his particular criticism of Christianity.

I admit that I haven’t picked up a book by Sartre since I was 25, but two university courses on Existentialist philosophy and its application in post war political discourse were enough to give me a good sense of his perspective on God.

As for Dawkins, I’ve only read “The God Delusion” and found it occasionally lucid but oddly misdirected. When he writes about God with every negative adjective he can think of, he’s describing Man and his choices.

Of all of these I found Dawkins the least interesting, most dogmatic, and most absolute. But when Russell describes himself as 6.9 out of 7 on the scale of atheism, I feel comfortable describing him as an atheist rather than an agnostic. I wonder where you get your scale.

Oyoyoy, It wasn’t clear that you were referring to the average Joe. I understand better now what you were saying. But I think many of the average Joes you are describing don’t necessarily fit the bill of atheist, or even agnostic, because they haven’t and don’t care or think enough to put the time in to actually articulate what they truly believe., and that’s sad. As an aside, I wasn’t advocating that you read what I read. For me, it has strengthened rather than weakened my emunah to, as Sun Tzu suggested, “know my adversary”. But I acknowledge that isn’t an approach advisable for everyone.

then were basically in agreement. chodesh tov.

I’ll try to maintain the decorum that seems to be escaping you, K-Cup.

If it needs elaboration, I read Hitchens for years and years before he passed away, both his articles and his books. I studied Russell in school, read him in different contexts afterwards, and while I am familiar with several instances where he describes his approach in agnostic terms, I was also familiar with the scale he gave, which, it seems to me, is pretty close to absolute in its assertion of non-belief. I mentioned Sartre, and I could have used Camus as an example ( I have read much more of his work) , but as you know, not all those writers and philosophers described as existentialist were atheists, so I didn’t, for example, use Kierkegaard. As for “knowing a lot about existentialism” because I took two courses on it, I didn’t make that claim, and I don’t appreciate being gaslit.

I’m actually not that interested in Dawkins. Referencing him and these others spoke to the point I was making to Oyoyoy, that’s all.

Also in the context of the discussion, these authors, and several more I am not as familiar with addressed the issue of belief within the context of the 20th century, its movements, its horrors, and the way in which most if not all of them built upon the religious, political, and social movements of the past – where the earlier generations of non believers and their philosophies resided. Hence their relevance in discussion of previous generations of thinkers.

As I indicated, I was responding to oyoyoy’s assertion that today’s atheists were at a low level. In the context that is escaping you, it is the corollary of the Jewish experience we are discussing. I thought he was talking about the philosophers who discuss belief and non belief, while he later clarified to me that he was talking about the average Joe, who we both agree doesn’t even think about belief enough to consider himself an atheist or not. We’ve come to a mutual understanding. You, however, seem to need to tear a strip off of me. I hope that it gives you some satisfaction.

There are also frequent assertions here on various threads that the pre-War generation of gadolim in the alte heim were somehow on higher madragah than those of today. From there, it is presumed that the downward spiral implied by the concept of yeridas hadoros continues unabated and will not be remedied until z’man moishiach. Ultimately, we go back to the notion that there are objective standards through which one can measure the “gadlus” of the gadolim of today versus those of prior generations and the kedushah and spirituality of yidden today versus those of our grandparents in the alte heim.