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Is it a bad middah to yell and scream in learning at your chavrusa?
Is it a bad middah to yell and scream in learning at your chavrusa?
If it will make your chavrusa feel bad, then yes.
If it will disturb others, then yes.
The Wolf
The thing to remember is this: Why are you arguing? If you are arguing because you want to find the truth, then yelling and screaming may help. If you are arguing because you want to be right, then all the yelling and screaming in the world won’t help you; you need to reevaluate your learning.
If it will make your chavrusa feel bad, then yes.
If it will disturb others, then yes.
I will add: if it will make it difficult to admit you’re wrong if a strong argument is made against your opinion, then yes.
Is it kaas when someone takes away something of yours
(the time a person yells in learning is when he says a pshat and the other person disagrees, not really a kaas situation over here)
:p> mbachur <d:
Halomed b’lo zimrah, chukim lo tovim umishpotim bal yedoim
lol…topic is kinda funny 😉
Very often it is out of excitement more than anger. Like the Gemara says, you don’t walk away hating your Chavrusa.
Shouting = Zimra ????
And I thought I was the only one who cant tell a difference
Very often it is out of excitement more than anger. Like the Gemara says, you don’t walk away hating your Chavrusa.
I agree. Nonetheless, even if it’s not out of hatred, I’m pretty sure that in the two cases I gave above it would be wrong to do so anyway.
The Wolf
Wolf: If it will disturb others, then yes
How do you define disrubtive to others? A Beis Midrash is intended (generaly) to be loud. A library is indeed intended to be quiet.
The best idea is scream WITH your chuvrusah.
Popa thinks it comes from bad middos.
But look, as things go, it is better to yell at your chavrusah than at your wife, so…
How do you define disrubtive to others? A Beis Midrash is intended (generaly) to be loud. A library is indeed intended to be quiet.
Indeed, but not all learning takes place in a crowded Bais Midrash.
If you’re in a crowded Bais Midrash where you can barely hear anyway, then the chances of you disturbing your neighbor with a loud voice is minimal. If, however, one is not learning in a Bais Midrash (gasp! horror!) then you may well disturb others.
The Wolf
What about learning in the CR?
RB: Yes, I did write that intentionally.
“Bad” middos are character traits which need improvement, and improving them is our life’s work.
For example, people are born with different proclivities to anger. Some people anger easily, and some less easily. Our goal is to improve ourselves so we will anger less easily and be consoled more easily. We do this by realizing that what happens to us is from Hashem.
The same is true for jealousy. People are born with different tendencies towards being jealous, and our work is to make ourselves less likely to be jealous by realizing that what we own is from Hashem.
So I wouldn’t say yelling at someone is a bad middah. The bad midda is kaas. You yell at people when your are feeling kaas.
We are probably not disagreeing on anything more than semantics, but I wanted to write this anyway.
Popa, I don’t know that you are correct. Just as yelling at someone is not a bad middah, so too, anger per se is not a bad middah either. I very much doubt that there are any bad or good middos; just good and bad uses of normative human character traits.
You say the person who angers easily should work on becoming engry less often. But there are of course situations where it is proper to become easily impassioned and angry. In such situations, being slow to anger might be undesirable. Jealousy too is appropriate in some situations and inappropriate in others.
The bottom line: learn to act appropriately in every situation. Control your natural tendencies when proper; let them loose when appropriate; and even develop the use of ordinarily base character traits in circumstances that warrant them.
In the learning context: Understand your chavrusa’s needs and sensibilities; be aware of your own position; keep in mind the physical setting, the topic of discussion, and the point your trying to make.
What are you saying? That all character traits have a proper usage? That is true with the exception of gaava, (see orchos tzadikim shaar hagaava. ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????) http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=42062&st=&pgnum=13&hilite=
I don’t think that negates anything I said.
RB:
I would say that feeling anger is a manifestation of kaas. Of course, not letting it out is a good thing, and helps to abate it.
I should mention here that I don’t really think bad middos exist today. I think it is really all emotional issues.
Ex. Nobody has gaava. To have gaava, you first need a health self esteem. Everyone who I know who manifests gaava has a terrible self esteem, and is just manifesting that.
No.
As long as it is “in learning”. A Quiet Bais Medresh is sad.
“If it will disturb others, then yes.”
Torah is suppost to be learnt bkolei kolos. If its too much for yur sensitive ears thats yur problem. Go somewhere else to learn or even better make some learning noise yurself.
mosherose: I said something similar to you once before. I hope it stays up this time (please mods, it needs to be said). The fact that you are frum enough to consider yourself the elect of God to the exclusion of all other Jews does not:
1- make that the case
2- even if it did, absolve you of the obligations of mentchlichkeit.
to the exclusion of all other Jews
Where did he say or imply that?
His subtitle wasn’t of his choosing.
WolfishMusings: If, however, one is not learning in a Bais Midrash (gasp! horror!)
Care to explain what the gasping and horrors are all about?
Truth be told and HaleiVi: you couldn’t have said it better. Took the words out of my mouth.
Care to explain what the gasping and horrors are all about?
A bit of failed humorous sarcasm on my part. I was responding to the point made by you that a Bais Midrash is supposed to be loud. Your wording made it sound like (although, to be fair, it’s probably not what you meant) that it’s yelling is not a problem because all learning is done in a loud Bais Midrash. I was trying to be funny while pointing out that there are other acceptable venues for learning where yelling at your chavrusa may not be acceptable.
The Wolf
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