Yehareig V'al Yaavor?

writersoul, when folks backup themselves with a “well-known rosh yeshiva” (Dov Linzer is a well known RY) or “a substantial posek” who must remain unnamed (which poskim want their psaks published without attribution?), especially when they are going against numerous written piskei din by the gedolei haposkim, and they can’t cite any written psak justifying their deviation from numerous written psaks to the contrary, that is the typical reasoning.

You don’t have to klerr what Rav Moshe was saying. Rav Moshe is very clear in multiple teshuvos (EH I 5, OC I 113, EH IV 32.9) on this issue that a handshake with a woman is objectively derech chiba.

Newbee – “How would there be orthodox doctors if a handshake is yehareg vehal yavor for everyone?”

What are you talking about? You don’t have to shake people’s hands!

Joseph

I named you two!

R av Heinemann allowed it beshes hadchak and said his Rebbi R’ Aaron Kotler held the same.

You decided this was limited to doctors. I relistened to the recording I have here it is verbatim:

In a question answer forum:

Questioner: “Is shaking a womans’ hand allowed in a business setting?”

Rav Heineman “I will tell you what my Rebbe said “mdarf rich arose dreyen fun deim”

Quetioner “But it isn’t assur?”

Rav Heinemn “It is better not”

questioner “But biless breira…?”

Rav Heineman “Well you aren’t giving me a choice either”

(laughter)

Saving a drowning woman is not derech chibah.

DY: I never understood that. There is a lot more physical contact in saving a drowning person than a brief handshake. I just don’t get the claim.

Joseph: At the 25-minute mark

http://tinyurl.com/Rav-Schachter-Quotes-C-S

Sam, Newbee, the point of a handshake is to forge a personal connection, albeit sometimes in a professional setting and in a subtle way.

The fact that some doctors shake hands at best proves that there is an opinion which allows it, but the discussion is whether that opinion is mainstream and should be followed, and if so, under what circumstances.

Health, the question being discussed is not whether it’s muttar to save a drowning woman, it’s what an be extrapolated from that din.

DY, I almost always agree with you, but I have to quote sam on this one: “There is a lot more physical contact in saving a drowning person than a brief handshake. I just don’t get the claim.”

benignuman – who wrote that most poskim allow shaking hands to avoid a so-called “loss of money”:

Chazal say that on Rosh HaShanah, it is decreed how much money you will earn in the coming year. Do you really think that your parnassa is dependent on whether or not you shake hands with someone of the opposite gender? Anyone who imagines that his parnassa is dependent on such factors is a kofer.

As far as a drowning woman – PUH-LEEZ. The halacha is that if a woman needs help (medical assistance, getting up after a fall, etc.), then it’s OK to touch her (to the extent necessary, and while being careful not to have inappropriate thoughts c”v).

Shaking hands with a woman is not medical assistance.

“You seem to have missed my point. It’s not about how much physical contact there is, it’s about the purpose and nature of the contact.”

And my point is the concept of Yehareig V’al Yaavor is based on a personal neheneh b’kiruv basar- not communal etiquette or societal norms. Remember, this is a life or death deoreisa, not derobanan.

“PUH-LEEZ. The halacha is that if a woman needs help (medical assistance, getting up after a fall, etc.), then it’s OK to touch her, while being careful not to have inappropriate thoughts ”

Why can one be careful not to have inappropriate thoughts while picking a woman up out of an ocean, but not a handshake?

Actually, Yehareig V’al Yaavor would dictate that if you know you couldn’t control yourself after the initial neheneh b’kiruv basar, you would not be allowed to save her and must let her drown.

Actually, Yehareig V’al Yaavor would dictate that if you know you couldn’t control yourself after the initial neheneh b’kiruv basar, you would not be allowed to save her and must let her drown.

That is against a clear psak in Igros Moshe (which I don’t have time right now to search for and cite). I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of this issue.

Why can one be careful not to have inappropriate thoughts while picking a woman up out of an ocean, but not a handshake?

Even if he knows with 100% certainty that shaking her hand will not lead him to have bad thoughts, it is still 100% assur to shake her hand, and if someone puts a gun to his head and tells him to shake her hand, he is still not allowed to do it (according to some opinions).

mik5: “Anyone who imagines that his parnassa is dependent on such factors is a kofer.”

That is patently absurd. Do you show up for work? Do you even have a job? Do you ever get out of bed? It’s clear that we are expected to do what we are supposed to do to make a living. Don’t claim that actually doing a job is Kfirah.

“Even if he knows with 100% certainty that shaking her hand will not lead him to have bad thoughts and if someone puts a gun to his head…he is still not allowed to do it (according to some opinions).”

You contradict yourself: if all poskim say you cant shake her hand and all poskim say its really Yehareig V’al Yaavor, why is it now merely “according to some opinions” that he cant shake her hand when a gun is pointed to his head? It should be no different. So when a gun is pointed to his head its only some opinions, but when she will be extremely embarrassed or there will be chesron kiss its according to all opinions? You are quoting from websites, but with all due respect you are not making sense.

DY: “That is against a clear psak in Igros Moshe”.

Maybe clarifying why you would be allowed to save her will help you understand this issue as well.

Anyone who imagines that his sustenance depends on whether or not he shakes hands with some woman – that person is a kofer. No question about it. It is a mitzvah to work to support one’s family, etc. But your parnassa is determined by Hashem on Rosh HaShanah; it is not determined by whether or not you shake hands with an isha.

“There is a B’feirush Gemara against that.” Source, please?

Joseph

Even if ou are right its not yehareg val yaavar according to him.

In context its clear he means “better to” or “should” not “must”. As is clear from the follow up.

Joseph,

I mentioned 2 names, Rav Yaakov and Rav Shimon Schwab. I have discussed the question personally with multiple “yeshivish” rabbonim. I am not saying their names because when someone asks a personal shaila, the response is meant for him alone, not for publication unless the rov says so. Rabbonim are often reluctant to publish heterim because they do not trust that the heter won’t be misunderstood/extended. This is why modern written sefarim are always more machmir than what you find when you ask a rov a question personally (and why english seforim are most machmir of all). There are thousands of frum, erlich baal baatim that will shake a woman’s hand in a business situation based on the advice of their rov. You are dreaming if you think that this is anything but a mainstream view.

Mik5,

Do you know that “hefsed mamon” and “hefsed merubah” are commonly used terms in halacha? There are many things that are allowed in cases of loss of money, more things that are allowed in cases of a signficant loss of money (hefsed merubah), and if the loss is more than a third of your assets, even bitul esaih d’oraisa is mutar. Frankly denying the concept of hefsed mamon is much closer to kefirah than using hefsed mamon as a basis for a heter.

DY, as far as Yehareig V’al Yaavor is concerned hirhurim is more stringent than derech chiba- not less. We say since its not derech chiba, there wont be hirhurim, and it therefor mutar.

“Even if ou are right its not yehareg val yaavar according to him.”

Exactly, which would make the halacha change when kavod habriyos or chesron kiss is involved.

Im not saying you can shake a woman’s hand. I am saying its not Yehareig V’al Yaavor unless you are neheneh bkiruv basar.

DY: Did you look it up in the rambam?

“she will be extremely embarrassed” – And if someone offers you treif, and by refusing to eat it you will embarrass them, etc., then it’s OK to eat treif, according to your logic. (?)

The Chazon Ish zatzal held that shaking hands was an issur gammur and Yehareig V’al Yaavor. I cannot speak for “all poskim.” All I can say is that Rabbi Yitzchak Abadi heard directly from the mouth of the Chazon Ish zatzal that (with regard to shaking hands) you should DIE and not transgress. Other poskim are more lenient, in cases of EXTREME necessity. But one must do everything in his power to avoid being in a situation where he knows that he will have no choice but to shake a woman’s hand.

One is required to forfeit up to 20% of his wealth to fulfill an obligation from the Torah.

One is required to forfeit every last penny that he owns to avoid transgressing one prohibition of the Torah, once in his life – but he is not required to give up his life for this (except for three sins).

“There are thousands of frum, erlich baal baatim that will shake a woman’s hand in a business situation based on the advice of their rov. You are dreaming if you think that this is anything but a mainstream view.”

Nowadays you can get a Rav to say just about anything and give any sort of heter for any sort of nonsense. It doesn’t change the halacha. Halacha is not determined by taking a poll of what people “think” is OK, or by taking a poll of what people do (and determining, in the course of said poll, that “thousands” of “frum” people do this, and therefore it must be OK). Halacha is determined by the rulings of the gedolei Yisroel (Rav Moshe, the Chazon Ish, etc.).

How many of these “frum, erlich baal baatim” talk during davening? Does that make it OK? How many of them daven at the speed of light? How many of them are mechallel Shabbos because they are completely ignorant in the laws of Shabbos?

Not getting mixed into the fray… (Oh do I have what to add), but all the twisted lumdus of the purported lamdanim notwithstanding, if one statement here causes another to lessen his/her awareness or shmira of this transgression, it will be held accountable in Shamayim. If ??? ?????? ?????? etc. from a true source, because of the reason given, how much more so on an open forum, where laymen, amateur lamdanim wannabes voice their opinion, theories, fantasies.

Its frustrating doing these debates without being able to talk.

Clarity is important. My point is simple: Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor for shaking a woman’s hand is subjective- not objective. Which is what sam said also. Thats why in some cases its mutar to shake a woman’s hand.

You still did not answer my question though why someone would not have to give up his life when faced with shaking a woman’s hand if shaking a hand is objectively Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.

You can copy and paste it or I will try to look it soon, cant right now.

ubiquitin: According to the quote from Rav Ahron it is abundantly clear he means “must”. The rest of the recording is only Rav Heinemann’s opinion.

benignuman: Unless you provide names of rabbonim, your definition of “yeshivish” vastly differs from the common definition. The only names you provided are those of unsourced and unwritten rulings that someone allegedly claims to have heard. And if, as you say, “when someone asks a personal shaila, the response is meant for him alone, not for publication unless the rov says so”, why then are you publishing these supposed shailas and alleged responses that you acknowledge were at most a one-off responsa that the rov didn’t want published or used generally by the public? As you say “Rabbonim are often reluctant to publish heterim because they do not trust that the heter won’t be misunderstood/extended”, why are you extending it where it is easily liable to be misunderstood as the rabbonim feared?

The mainstream view and psak, as abundantly demonstrated by numerous written psakim by the gedolei haposkim across the spectrum (yeshivish/litvish, chasidish and sefardish) is that it is prohibited to shake a woman’s hand in a business setting or otherwise. There may be any number of private heteirim to do any sort of aveiros the Torah might prohibit based on unique circumstances. But those heteirim in no way, shape or form indicate that the underlying aveira is anything other than prohibited. No less that when someone receives a heter to be mechallel Shabbos does it mean that chillul Shabbos is permitted. Or “mainstream”.

newbee: What if you have to physically pick a woman up and take her off the train tracks to save her life? Being permitted to do so demonstrates that other times you can pick a woman up if you feel it isn’t derech chiba? You’re arguing since you can carry her out of the pool so you should be able to carry her to a cot if she fell asleep on the kitchen floor if you believe it isn’t derech chiba for you.

And all doctors don’t shake hands. What on earth are you talking about?

Rav Moshe writes multiple times that shaking a woman’s hand is objectively derech chiba.

mik5,

The Chazon Ish paskened as you wrote. Rav Moshe paskened as wrote (although Rav Moshe acknowledged that many erliche talmidei chachomim disagreed with him). If you hold, like Rav Moshe and the Chazon Ish, that shaking a woman’s hand is an issur d’oraisa then of course you are right.

But if you hold that m’ikur hadin shaking a woman’s hand is not an issur d’oraisa and/or is mutar altogether, then hefsed mamon or hefsed merubah can be a basis for allowing it.

You might ask “if it is mutar why do you need the hefsed altogether?” The answer is that notwithstanding the ikur hadin in America one should be machmir like Rav Moshe under normal circumstances. But if there is a situation of hefsed most morai horaah in America will be meikil.

“Nowadays you can get a Rav to say just about anything and give any sort of heter for any sort of nonsense.”

That is ridiculous. If you “heter-shop,” maybe. But I am not talking about finding the one Rav in town that will matir something. I am talking the most likely answer you will receive. I personally learned the gedarim of shaking hands from my rebbe long before it ever became nogeiah (pardon the pun) l’maaseh.

Halacha, in our days without a Sanhedrin, is determined by the consensus of morei horaah. There are many piskei halacha from the Chazon Ish that are not followed by the vast majority of Talmidei Chachomim. There are many piskei halacha from Rav Moshe that are not followed by the vast majority of Talmidei Chachomim. And there are issues for which there is no widespread consensus, where there are multiple camps with different shittos. Ask your rav for your own personal shailos, but don’t impune the frumkeit of others when they are just following the psak they received from their rav or their rabbeim.