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ZD, you keep on repeating how bad the aveira is, but nobody’s disagreed with you about that. No matter how destructive and evil such behavior is, it doesn’t prove the guilt of a particular individual.
chalilavchas -you trust Horowitz, but it is commanded to trust Hashem only. You are not a baby- go by Torah!
Yitayningwut- Another thought- using the Choshen Mispat siman 2, nowadays, there would probably be only three standing in the world left. Many in CR would be the first in the line-up to be judged.
Daas Yachid
So basically since we will almost never catch an abuser on video and since they are usually smart enough to cover their tracks well we should never believe the accuser and always assume they are making up a story right?
Listen, in this case although there is no proof, there’s certainly smoke and quite a bit of it at that and when there’s smoke there’s usually fire. There’s way too much in his modus operandi that makes no sense. Btw did you ever hear of a therapist that went on a private 14 hour trip with their client?! Especially with an underage girl?!
WIY – DO NOT PREJUDGE.
In many instances two valid witnesses are required as proof in a din Torah. One can go without two valid witnesses if one does not have them and see what the dayonim say – each case is slightly different.
WIY, As I stated previously, I don’t know anything about this case. I therefore make no judgement either way. ZD also did not claim any knowledge of this case, and therefore I question his prejudging.
The threshold for bringing the authorities in is “raglayim l’davar”. This is determined by a posek based on halachically accepted means, but certainly does not require video evidence.
DY
This is a moderated forum and you only see the posts that go through, although I have tried to limit what I say because I know the rules.
If this was not a moderated forum, I would certainly post more information why i feel a certain way.
Usually when a defendent is on trial they do not take the stand for fear of incriminating themselves of the crime or other crimes. The defendent in this case should have taken this advice. Read the newspapers even if you think they are biased, They have retold his time on the stand fairly accurate.
He is innocent. Therefore he took the stand. The guilty are afraid to testify in their own defense.
First he judges then he uses the secular press to smear more -and still no din Torah- a disgrace!
Iced
No his going on the stand does not prove innocence just arrogance. You obviously didn’t read up on what was revealed during his testimony. He definitely is no model citizen….
ZD, I’m confused. Previously, you stated that you didn’t know the case. Now, you say you feel the media reports are fairly accurate. How would you be in a position to know that?
Iced, that’s ludicrous. Should any defendant who takes the stand automatically be exonorated?
There was a thread recently about opposite gender therapists. Many people were saying it was assur, And now suddenly its permitted?
Except in a yerusha case, then I guess its permitted
Ready now
Why on earth would an 18 year old girl willingly put herself through this torture to convict him if he is innocent. what does she have to gain? Only slurs and hurtful remarks.
Can my comment be approved?
I only know the case from the Media reports. I dont have any inside information.
I belive her story more than his story, Too many holes in his story and what he has said on the stand did not convince me he was a victims of an angry teen
Zdad,
If you were willing to be honest with yourself you would acknowledge that you just have a unhealthy and unfounded proclivity to assume that chasidic men are wrong.
As is obvious from 98% of your comments.
I wonder if you will being honest with yourself any easier than being honest with others.
I honestly know I would not take a 14 year old girl who is not my offspring anywhere.
There is zero evidence against him for what he stands accused of other than her word. It is a typical “he-said/she-said” situation, and we cannot accept a conviction based on a he-said/she-said situation with zero real actual evidence.
Chalila,
I said I don’t know the case and I’m not following it. And I am not making statements as to who did what. Contrary to what you may have claimed before.
I am saying that people making claims about the case when All they know is what they read in media in luring tho blog and others leaves no one with enough information to make an honest assessment. However it it is easier to make an assessment based on existing biases.
I would say less than 1% of what is written in the NYT, NYP or NYDN is true. And what is written on the blogs you seem to be following are even less so. And my guess at percentages is based on instances where I actually witnessed things that were totally misrepresented in those media. Of where I have corresponded with the writers and caught them in numerous blatant lies.
Which is as easy to with them as many of the comments here.
A fair conviction can only come from a duly constituted Bais Din organized under Halacha utilizing Torah Law and standards of evidence.
A fair conviction can only come from a duly constituted Bais Din organized under Halacha utilizing Torah Law and standards of evidence.
So, on a practical level, since there is no such court, what do you propose we do with thieves, rapists, child molesters and murderers today?
Or is it your contention that all Jews should be free from all criminal prosecution?
The Wolf
Wolf. you said-
You are not correct, because there IS such a court.
A Bais Din is capable of convening and ruling on the matter on hand (under discussion) today and imposing the halachicly prescribed penalties if guilty.
The defends have not answered about the 15 Hour road trip upstate
This was admitted by the defendant on the Witness stand so its not a “Tablod Lie”
What possible Halacha allows a road trip with an unmarried girl above the age of 12?
Chalila,
Is that what I said? Can you show me where I said that?
I said there is no way you can make any sort of honest judgment by what you have read in the media or on blogs.
How you stretched that comment to what you allege is beyond my comprehension.
And it is somewhat troubling how you believe you can make any objective judgment if you are given to such convoluted leaps in this case.
Z,
What halacha forbids it? Can you make one up?
Perhaps if it were at night. But I have no idea when this was. Nor do I believe anything listed in the media. And as as for what you’re saying, well you’re writing on a blog, and I made clear how much I believe that medium. And I am pretty certain I can accurately guess which other blogs you peruse for your sources.
zd: His wife went on the trip with the girl. This fact was never even disputed by the prosecution.
A Bais Din is capable of convening and ruling on the matter on hand (under discussion) today and imposing the halachicly prescribed penalties if guilty.
Yeah? You really think there is a Bais Din that is authorized to administer the death penalty or even malkus today?
Please, tell me who are the semuchim who would form this Bais Din?
The Wolf
Do not prejudice- you are not a dayan, and if you were you would be out of order speaking here.
Anyone prejudicing really has to have a good look at themselves.
In the days of horses and carts, people took hours to get from A to B. What do you know – nothing.
iced, there are many cases of defendants taking the stand in which it was their own testimony that convinced the jury of their guilt. I sat on such a jury once.
I know nothing about this case other than what I read here. It seems to me that unless you’re privy to all the testimony that the jury hears, you’re in no position to judge. Reading about it in the paper is not the same as being in the courtroom. I totally agree with nishtdayngesheft about the accuracy of the media.
Zdad,
You happen to be right there are those that state that a “road trip” with an unmarried girl above the age of 12 is assur becuase of Yichud.
Therefore they contend that it is prohibited for Boys and girls to go out on dates.
In cases of abuse I wonder if anyone here has read up about the “pre-school” cases of the 80’s where in a whole bunch of cases men (and in some instances women) were convicted of child abuse.
In all these cases eventually it was proven that the accused were innocent, in many cases they had already benn sitting in Jail for years.
In fact the near total exoneration of virtually all the accussed and the open demonstration of numerous cases where children did not say the actual truth plaid a real role in the child abuse accusation being laid to rest for a lon. long time.
Look the cases up some of them are pretty famous.
As for Halacha.
There is something called “kula d’loh posuk” in such cases Beis Din has the ability to require that a “suspect” no longer deal with a specific women or children ect… as a precaution even though they may not punish since they do not have enough evidence to warrant a punishment.
Just to clarify.
I purposley dis not use the term “lie” in talking about accusotory children.
There is aconsiderable evidence to the fact that children below a certain age do not lie about things in the way adults understand lie rather their perception of reality is different then an adults and hence when they say over a story in many instances they do not think they are lieing in the conventional sense.
I don’t think this is news to any parent of small children.
This is one reason why it’s quite disingenous when “experts” qoute studies showing “children don’t lie”.
Yes they do not lie in many cases, however they are not telling the truth as we understand it to be.
Again most parents of small children understand what I am saying as it’s pretty much self understood.
But then again most of the “experts” that are the originators of most of these “studies” had very few children of their own and even if they did they spent very little time with them to know many of the things that many Jewish Parents who grew up in families with numerous siblings, cousins ect.. take for granted.
So they had to spend millions of dollars and make numerous mistakes trying to find out a little bit of what we know.
Sort of like President Barack Obama telling a buisnessman how to turn a profit, with equal results.
In Chassidic communmities there is a Beshow unmarried people never go on a date.
Wolf: Even if the allegations in this case had been true, it is not a capital case. The penalty prescribed by halacha for this is within the jurisdiction and competence of a contemporary Bais Din.
And what punishment does contemporary Beis Din implment for such an offense other than montary compensation.
This is not a capital case, If convicted he is going to Jail. Beis Din cannot implement Jail sentences
Wolf: Even if the allegations in this case had been true, it is not a capital case. The penalty prescribed by halacha for this is within the jurisdiction and competence of a contemporary Bais Din.
Is it? Are you talking about the k’nas of a na’arah (since she was 12 when this started)?
That’s a k’nas… which, again, you need s’muchim.
Are you saying that it’s strictly a monetary case with only civil penalties involved?
If so, then I ask you — is monetary punishment the only acceptable punishment for thieves, gangsters, arsonists, child molesters and rapists (as long as they don’t kill anyone)? If not, then what would you do with these people?
The Wolf
I find it amusing unfortunately, how all of you seem to know the true facts first hand! Tell me do any of you know the accuser firsthand? Do you know her husband as well?? There is so little coverage of who and what she is! This whole case is a terrible chillul Hashem! I am NOT SWEEPING things under the carpet, BUT you need to know who she is and what shes done with her life!! Not because she’s been abused BUT because of choices that she has made !
Wolf: She has made no allegation of their being any actual maisa.
Wolf: She has made no allegation of their being any actual maisa.
I’m not referring to this case, specifically.
You said:
A fair conviction can only come from a duly constituted Bais Din organized under Halacha utilizing Torah Law and standards of evidence.
I can only assume that you meant this universally and not just for this case. (If I’m wrong in this assumption, please tell me).
If so, again, I ask, what do you propose that we do, on a practical level, with child molesters, rapists, arsonists and thieves in our community? If they cannot be prosecuted by the DA (since there can be no “fair conviction” under your definition) and there is no Beis Din that can prosecute them (unless you feel that these cases are strictly civil matters), then what do you propose we do with them?
The Wolf
I find it amusing unfortunately, how all of you seem to know the true facts first hand! Tell me do any of you know the accuser firsthand? Do you know her husband as well?? There is so little coverage of who and what she is! This whole case is a terrible chillul Hashem! I am NOT SWEEPING things under the carpet, BUT you need to know who she is and what shes done with her life!! Not because she’s been abused BUT because of choices that she has made !
Does it matter?
If what you are implying about her is true, so what? Does that mean she deserves abuse? Or is not entitled to justice if abused?
Justice in this case needs to be based on evidence and testimony (or lack of same). Who and what she may have otherwise done is really beside the point.
The Wolf
It is not an averirah to not want to follow the laws of Satmar.
He has been found GUILTY of all Charges..
As said, false guilty verdict.
On what bases do you have that info?
The evidence was provided , ample oportunity was given to refute the evidence and a jury of 6 men and 6 women convicted based on the evidence provided.
He might have even admitted to another crime on the stand (embezzlement) Non-Profits have monetary rules that have to be followed to keep that status
I am ecstatic about this verdict ..I must say let that rotten person rot in prison
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