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Many frum yiddin sometimes wear baseball caps instead of yarmulkes (or on top of their yarmulkes). Now, i understand that sometimes this is done for safety purposes, and that seems reasonable. However, it seems to me like sometimes many yiddin choose to wear a baseball cap even when there is no sakanna and they just don’t want to be identified as a frum jew. This often happens when young men (or men of any age really) go out in public places that are outside of where frum yiddin usually are, like during a hike in a state park or while on vacation outside the NY area, usually this is also accompanied by wearing clothes that are not usually worn by bnei torah at home (ie like khaki pants or a tshirt/polo shirt. I think this is done for two reasons. 1)To avoid awkward situations where people stare at you and ask you about whats on your head. I don’t think this is a good reason because we should be proud of our status as bnei torah and not be afraid of being stared at or explaining ourselves.
The second reason I think some people do this is far more sinister. They think they are far away from other frum yiddin and they are subconsciously (or consciously) thinking that they might have the opportunity to do an aveirah and know that wearing a yarmulke would be a drag on that. Its almost as if they would rather not cover their heads at all but wear a cap because they just cant get over their conditioning. Obviously I think this second reason is much worse than the first.
Thoughts?
Yeah, you’re nuts.
Maybe they just don’t want the wind to blow off their yarmulkas.
A yarmulke is worn for indoor use when one would normally be bareheaded (for a goy). They are not very good as outdoor hats since they blow away. An outdoor hat is usually needed. Some people put the outdoor over the yarmulke, others put the yarmulke in the pocket while wearing an outdoor hat.
Baseball caps are a popular style of outdoor non-dress hats. One would not wear a baseball hat at a formal event. Other non-dress hats currently popular include a wide variety of caps. Among all Americans, baseball caps are quite popular.
I have never seen anyone wearing a baseball hat to shul on Shabbos.
I was trolling the park one day in the very merry month of may.
Instead of thinking the worst about people you could give them the benefit of the doubt. Most obvious with your example of a hike is that most men don’t want their yarmulkes to get sweaty. A dirty, grungy, sweaty yarmulke is very disrespectful imo so most men will wear a hat instead. Obviously sweating is not the answer to every situation but there are more obvious basic answers for most people
@mobe613:Ever hear of play clothes. You know, when you wear more comfortable atire as opposed to your “every day uniform” so you can chill a little.
Also, some men wear baseball caps because they are balding or maybe they want to support their favorite team.
Why don’t you just ask them?
And why is this bothering you so much??
Last summer, I took a balloon ride over Vermont. When we boarded the balloon, I put a baseball cap over my yarmulke, since I had no idea what the wind would be like when we were a few thousand feet up. A baseball cap stays on the head much easier than a yarmulke does.
If you want to ascribe sinister reasons to my doing so, then go ahead.
The Wolf
I have been out of town a bunch of times, and Ive even seen the Chabad Rabbis wear the baseball cap (They have the Tzizit out)
I also was once in a National Park in South Dakota. I saw a Frum Family on vacation wear the father and sons wore baseball hats (and Tzizit out) and the females wore long skirts and the mother had on a Techil.
Baseball caps are a good way to protect your face from the sun without wearing such a nebach hat with a brim that goes around your entire head. It can help prevent skin cancer.
Assume that every time I go outside, there is a 95% chance that I will make a positive impression on the public by doing such things as feeding the sick, healing the hungry, and helping old women across the street. There is also a 5% chance that I will inadvertently bump into someone, fail to notice the middle aged man who doesn’t have a seat on the bus, or drop something out of my pocket. The expected gain from someone judging all Jews positively based on observing my positive behavior would still be lower than the expected loss of people judging all Jews negatively based on observing my negative behavior.
Therefore, it makes sense to wear a cap.
However, an argument can be made that in those situations you look more Jewish with a cap than with a yarmulka, because obvious Jews with Yarmulkas can be anything from MO to Eida Hachareidis, but obvious Jews with caps all look chassidish.
I don’t wear a kippah in places where it is mostly gentile. I put a baseball hat on in those cases due to safety.
Most gentiles are anti-semites, in one way or another, and I want to avoid consternation. Also, they particularly object to religious Jews. For instance, I was on Staten Island 2 weeks ago and stopped at the ShopRite on New Dorp Lane to buy some cheese, crackera, ice cream, and a few other items. I know the area is mostly goyishe, so I didn’t want to expose myself to possible danger or harm.
Alright, you have made your point. 🙂 Now what?
i wear a cap with my cleats. so i can step on your head, and not get sunburned.
I wonder what the op will say about those who sport their favorite logo on a yarmulka, he already went after those who sport it on their cap.
Mobe:
“Its nice that so many people are quick to be dan likav zechus”
Maybe you should learn.
“And I suppose I should have included a longer list of appropriate reasons to wear a baseball cap instead of a yarmulke, as many of you have mentioned some that I did not include in my original post.”
No you shouldn’t. It’s irrelevant and useless to assume. If you want to know, just ask them politely. Assuming won’t get you anywhere.
And nobody is “kidding” themselves.
I’m gonna go way out on a limb here and assume that people wearing leisurely attire while engaged in leisure activities are doing so because they are engaged in leisure activities.
Believe it or not, baseball caps and the bills on them, as well as sunglasses, are intended to protect the face and eyes from direct sunlight, not to transform a Jew into a non-Jew. Likewise, jeans/cargo pants and sneakers are important if one is engaged in an activity that will damage or wear at finer, thinner, more formal wear. T-shirts are infinitely more effective at wicking away sweat and letting in air than a Shabbos shirt. People are dressing smart, not “goyishe.”
It appears to me that you are applying your own preconceived sinister intentions to people who may be guilty only of engaging in an outdoor activity.
DBM:
Well put. Hope this will give some perspective…
Mobe613, I realized you are right:
If the pope can wear his elaborate outfit and yarmulka at all times, so ca I.
So, last Chol Hamo’ed, I sky-dove onto the Rockie mountains in my streimel, went swimming at the Best Western in my tish beketshe and yarmulka, went bungee jumping with my gartel, and took the lazy river with my shmeck taback.
I had no problem with the sun in my eyes, because I was wearing tinted glasses, and my yarmulka didn’t fall off because I’m Ger.
I urge everyone to do the same and not compromise their minhagim. If you feel you cant,- so nu, don’t go on the trip.
Mobe613, you evidently haven’t known me long enough to realize that was pure sarcasm.
Why is everyone (except for VM, and shnitzy) in such denial about this?
I don’t know what it is you think I’m in denial about. Are there times I put on a baseball cap or some other covering over my yarmulke (never instead of)? Yes, of course I do, but invariably it’s for one of two reasons:
1. Fear that I will lose my yarmulke in the activity (such as in the aforementioned balloon ride)
2. Weather related (such as when I put the hood of my coat over my head when it’s cold).
I fail to see why I am wrong to cover my yarmulke with something else in either situation. I fail to see why this is a problem at all.
As for other people, well — are there people who do it because they’re ashamed of being Jewish? Possibly… but there are also plenty of Jews who eat treif and don’t keep Shabbos. This issue certainly does not rise to the level of the latter-mentioned sins.
Just what is it, exactly, that you are accusing me of being in denial about?
The Wolf
You seem very proud about your thesis, Mobe, but I’m not sure what you are suggesting or what you are trying to prove. Do you think that the main reason why people wear baseball caps is because they think that they’ll come across a ham sandwich while hiking? We’ve already determined that your claim wouldn’t apply to windy days, or activities that involve running, or sunny days. Also, you seem to think it’s a bad idea, to the point that they “only wear it because they are conditioned to have their heads covered.” But given a choice between not covering your head so that you don’t look Jewish while eating the ham sandwich; and covering your head in a way that at least your head is covered during the time that you think you might encounter the ham sandwich, it’s definitely better to wear the cap.
Your post still does not explain what it is you think I’m in denial about.
You made an accusation and I want you to please clarify it, so that I may respond to it intelligently.
What, exactly, am I in denial about because of my actions as described in my previous posts? And if it’s not my actions that are in question, then what am I in denial about that I did not address in the second-to-last paragraph of my previous post?
Lastly, please add an extra line between paragraphs. It makes it much easier to read what you write.
Thanks,
The Wolf
The Wolf:
You made an accusation and I want you to please clarify it, so that I may respond to it intelligently.
He can’t possibly “clarify” before he gets “clarity”. The problem is, he’s not interested in clarity. He just needed to vent for some reason. He himself couldn’t produce an explanation as to why it bothers him. He won’t know why anyone is in “denial” or “kidding themselves”. We should stop trying to explain, it’s a waste of time.
Mobe613: Maybe I can shed a little light on your evident confusion over people’s reactions in this thread.
In your original post, you wrote:
” Now, i understand that sometimes this is done for safety purposes, and that seems reasonable. However, it seems to me like sometimes many yiddin choose to wear a baseball cap even when there is no sakanna and they just don’t want to be identified as a frum jew. This often happens when young men (or men of any age really) go out in public places that are outside of where frum yiddin usually are, like during a hike in a state park or while on vacation outside the NY area, usually this is also accompanied by wearing clothes that are not usually worn by bnei torah at home (ie like khaki pants or a tshirt/polo shirt.”
This implies that the only conceivable reason you can come up with for a Jew to be wearing a baseball cap/sports garb is “sakana.”
You then go on to address the idea of “young men or men of any age really” donning the garb in question in order to go hiking or on vacation, but you take them to task for this because they are not in a makom sakanah.
In other words, you do NOT allow for reasonable use of sports clothing; on the contrary, you imply that the only possible explanation for it is the wearer’s desire to appear non-Jewish.
Again, READ YOUR OWN POST. You do NOT state that you believe leisure activities to be a reason to don leisure clothing. You specifically state only two possible reasons that–in your estimation–apply to the situation:
1. The person in question is ashamed of looking Jewish.
2. The person in question is preparing for the possibility of doing an aveirah without being recognized as Jewish.
Even when DaasYochid stated, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, that perhaps people don’t want their yarmulkes to blow off, you only conceded, grudgingly, that perhaps this is the explanation SOME of the time.
THIS is why people here are taking you to task. You have already decided that you know the Real True Reason why you saw a Jew in baseball cap. You phrase it in the form of a question, but you are essentially telling us that you already know the answer and would simply like everyone to agree with you so that we can go on to discuss the crisis du jour without having to haggle over whether it is in fact a crisis to begin with.
Most people here seem to think it isn’t.
Wolfish- I did not mean to imply that you are in denial about your own actions. I meant you (and it was the plural you of everyone else on the thread) are in denial about other peoples motivations.
That’s fine. Thanks for the clarification.
Now then, I don’t believe that I’m in denial about other people’s motivations because I *don’t know* what other people’s motivations are. I am not a mind-reader. And, I suspect, neither are you.
If you wish to state that the majority of people use baseball caps to hide the fact that they are Jewish, then the burden of proof is on you to show that. It is not upon myself, or anyone else in the Coffeeroom to show that it is not. To date, you have not offered any proof to your hypothesis. Please provide some evidence to back up your claim before accusing people here of being in denial about something that may not, in fact, be true.
Sorry about line btwn paragraphs, i am new to the coffee room and still getting the hang of it.
Not a problem. Welcome to the CR.
The Wolf
DBM:
You have patience. This is exactly why I didn’t try to “explain” to begin with. He didn’t give the impression that he’s trying to understand. You obviously read his post well, so I won’t point out exactly why he seems confused.
He already got plenty reasonable points to ponder. He doesn’t want to.
Wolfish:
I’m afraid you’re giving him more “homework” than he can handle 😉
Mobe613:
Define “important”. Please
I can’t get over the Chutzpah this guy has in assuming all this! He posts as if what he is saying is fact and all other interpertations are wrong!
I am in China 4 times a year at shows, Gradah, in my Yarmulka, but wearing jeans and a polo shirt. What does that make me? I see countless Chasidish looking people, with Payos behind their ears or curled, but wearing baseball caps. What does that make them?
The other day while standing in front of my office in Suffern NY on Route 59 I saw a Chasidisha guy with a Yarmulka walk out of a Mexican food joint and put the bag in his car. For his worker, you say? I sure hope so! But I would much rather that guy in a baseball cap, not for everyone else, but for me! Mobe613, I suggest that until you post a picture of yourself wearing Torahdik clothing, and a picture of how your wife/parents/kids dress, you stay out of everyone elses business.
It is important to debunk silly generalizations.
No, we are just being honest with you and giving you a proper welcome.
Mobe613
“I am not saying majority of caps are for bad reasons”
I personally think none of the caps are for bad reasons. You won’t know what the reason is unless you ask. You need to go over to the cap-wearer and ask them directly. You’d be surprised at the different answers you’ll get. Good luck.
Mobe613:
Great examples. Popas posts are all important. How else would we know when he’s going skiing? I for one would love to join, but I joined the coffee room a bit too late for that. I think.
And please stick to your own topic. Thank you.
Do you think that the Chofetz Chaiam wore a newsboy cap in the street instead of a yarmalke because he thought that he could pass as a regular guy rather than as a frume; and that it was also good for the store’s business.
And the bochrim of Slabodke and V’lozhin also did not wear the frume b’gadim but instead dressed in the most up-to-date goyeshe styles, b’shita.
cherrybim:
You’re confusing the poor guy.
No. It looked like too many explanations were, um, too many. But I might be wrong.
I think Mobe613 is a little smothered by all these responses, actually.
Hey! You okay under there?!?
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