Yair Lapid to Chareidim- you won

To those who claim the kollel and “way of life” support is minimal: I assume you then do not have any issues with removing such support? I would like to hear what Plonis & Yael (and not Joe) think.

Bear – Don’t bother these Zionists with truth -they aren’t interested.

The Chilonim want the Charedim exactly where they are now. It’s like the US before the civil war -they wanted the slaves. They could never imagine one day that they would be free and one would be President. So this guy Lapid talks big, but as soon as he implements his equality plan -the Charedim won’t be the sub-class anymore. A lot will end up in the army and then they will go to work afterwards. They will take over the economy and then the country and most of the Chilonim will flee the country and the few left will be the new sub-class. So Lapid knows they can’t keep the Charedim down much longer -so he’s trying to make them as miserable as possible in the interim. So he’s a perfect politician – he stands up to get votes based on the hatred of Charedim, but not for a second does he want all the Charedim in the army which in turn would elevate their social status.

The Chilonim are caught between a hard place and a rock. But sooner or later, they will lose the country -either by forcing the Charedim into the army and then into working or by the coming of Moshiach or by the Arabs taking over. Their time is limited and they know it. And the so-called religious that joined up with this guy will end up with him, just like the followers of Korach. People think Korach was a big Sheigetz, but in reality he looked just as Frum as Moshe Rabbeynu.

gavra: Like I said. The ONLY money that we “get” is 750 NIS a month as a kollel stipend. That is it. Would I like them not to give it? Of course not, everyone appreciates a little extra cash. Is this money the make it or break it for me? Certainly not.

Would you like me to refuse any money at all, even the money that the chilonim get, such as for kitzvad yeladim, just because I am not a chiloni? Why should I? I work, and pay taxes, just like they do.

Am I taking welfare? No.

Not sure the point of your question. Again, I, like MOST women in chareidi Israeli society, work. I pay taxes. How exactly am I, and most chareidi families mooching?

I am not disputing the fact that SOME PEOPLE take adavantage and do not even try to put in proper hishtadlus.

I am disputing the facts as stated here. The VAST PERCENTAGE of chareidi women are working (quite hard) and paying their lawful dues to the government. What dream world are we living in? Why don’t we deserve the same social benefits that others get? How am I living off of the “frei’s” money?

zahavasdad – did you hear anyone ask to replace the welfare payments with funds from the US? I didn’t.

The point here is that the statements like “it is time for the chareidim in EY to wake up and stop taking a free ride from chilonim” are just false and based on misinformation.

Almost all chareidim’s wive’s work. They deserve the same social benefits as any other family in Israeli society. That is no free ride.

Plonis, get it! You belong to the small minority of Anglos who support themselves! That is not the case with the Israeli Chareidim! Stop the misrepresentation!

Daas Yochid, why did the erliche Jews have to put up with the Roman avodah zorah government? It was not right, right? My point is you have to face the reality.

plonis3141: The reason why these benefits that (supposedly) apply to everyone are so high is because the Charaidi parties are well aware that they will get most of the money. It’s like the Kiryas Yoel School district, where they had to try three times to finally get something in that could apply to a single other jurisdiction. Yes it didn’t say KJ (or “for Charaidim only”), but everyone knows that it who it is meant to benefit.

That is part of the “way of life” support. Lets see what happens in the new administration. Personally I hope they keep them, but I don’t know if that will happen.

Jews the world over will take up the slack for those who truly want to learn. The rest will join the workforce and start a huge wave of kiruv that would completely change the face of the medine.

Bezras Hashem.

First of all, thank you for your respectful reply.

What you are missing is that you were probably dealing with Anglos. I am referring to the vast majority of Israeli chareidi wives.

As opposed to what mdd says, my experience is that more anglos have parental support than Israelis and that most Israelis work. Their kids are in mishpachton or tzaharon, or some other day care until the fahter gets home at lunch and he watches the kids until the wife gets home at 3:30-4.

I never said they had more than enough money for day to day. I said that we are not living off of the frei’s money. The frei are not paying for our kids’ weddings, dirahs, etc. (Don’t ask me who is….no idea, but again, that is not related to the gov’t paying the kollel checks)

If the kollel stipend is more than the 750 shekles, then of course it helps. People here were questioning the “large” kollel stipends that the government is paying for. Obviously some people try to get into higher paying kollels, but as you said, those are supported by US donors – not by the government.

In terms of yeshivas, etc. I know that my 3 sons are in cheder which I have to pay every month. (I pay around $120 a month for each kid.) Noone subsidizes that. The fathers, as you say, are in kollel, or have some postition, either in a yeshiva or other klei kodesh.

The girls’ BY is free, except for fees now and then, until they reach HS, and then it is around 200 shekels a month and then you also have to pay a few hundred shekels a month for transportation.

0mdd: What’s the difference how much she is earning? Their families are satisfied with living on little, with a very basic and simple lifestyle. They dont need to live like Americans. And the $200 a month the government pays kollel families is certainly not what keeps the families financially solevent. $200 doesnt even pay for a full week of just the food for a family with 6 children.

Yichusdik: That isn’t a subsidy. Every country in the world pays for children’s school education. Rich and poor.

mdd: first of all, not sure what doesn’t add up about my numbers, but either way, not sure what the issue is here. I never claimed anything about how Israelis pay for dirahs or chasunahs. The only thing I claimed was that your statements about Israeli chareidim living off of the chilonim is just not the metziyus. It is a convenient, inflammatory statement, but it is just not ture

yichusdik: the way the israeli system works is the education is free. For everyone. B”Y are recognized by the government, and therefore are free. Cheders are not. I am not sure about this, but I think depending on what your cheder teaches, they get some gov’t support. That is why we pay for the boys and not for the girls. Again, my point is just that it is not subsidized by the “frei” working people,a s opposed to the lazy chareidim.

In terms of your questions about the numbers, please remember that Israeli couples, as opposed to Americans, usually own an apartment and do not have to pay a mortgage or tuition, except for the numbers discussed above. Medical care is also socialized, so the costs are much lower than you American are used to thinking about.

That is not to say that people don’t struggle, just giving you an idea.

I do not want to start listing my income, or someone else in computers, and then all of our expenses. My point in getting involved here at all was just to clarify some misconceptions about Isreali chareidim.

plonis:

Actually the vast majority of people I knew were Israelis, not Anglos. I found that amongst Anglos it was a lot more common for the father to have a job, as it’s easier to get out of army duty. I simply find it hard to believe that there are so many jobs in Eretz Yisroel that allow a women to take care of her family, work at home and still support a full family.

That being said, allow me to get back to my original thoughts. I just have a very difficult time understanding the Chareidi lifestyle and why the vast majority of Chareidim put such an emphasis on not changing it one iota.

Let’s understand one thing: Kollel Yungelite keep the world standing. Many of the greatest Rabbonim alive today wouldn’t be who they are without kollel. That being said, I do not believe that a kollel lifestyle is for everyone. My issue with the Chareidi system is that it basically forces <i>everyone</i> to adopt that lifestyle. An American Oleh, farinstance, who knows himself well enough usually decides that Eretz Yisroel is the place to live as it’s a lot cheaper and easier to live there while learning in Kollel. His children, though, don’t have the same choice. They can either sit in Kollel tug unt nacht, or they can join the army (which is not really a choice in most Chareidi families).

What I have difficulty with is how every time the idea is floated to give Chareidim a choice whether to sit in Kollel forever or do something else, it’s always hotly opposed with angry shouts of people claiming that they are dragging Yungerlite away from their learning and mothers from their children. Why can’t Chareidi politicians, Rabonim and askonim petition for some sort of compromise where whomever wants to sit in Kollel may do so and whomever wants to go to work may do so too?

Now, let’s face it. Some 99% of tax revenue comes from the non-Chareid sectors in Israel, yet the much more that 10% the national budget is spent on Chariedim. Why shouldn’t the non-Frum be upset about this?

yserbius: the point of this thread is the chilonim supposedly supporting the chareidim. That is the only point I was addressing.

Your questions are good ones, and you are not the first one to take note of it. In E”Y, by the chareidim, it is basically learn in kollel or you are not considered acceptable mainstream chashuva ben torah. America provides a lot more options to be a chushuva ben torah who is not in kollel all day.

But I think all of that is another topic.

I also think that your percentages on the taxes are way off.

gaw: I don’t believe that is correct. Even Vice PM Yaalon (whose proposal is more liberal than Lapid’s) is only offering to lower the age we can start working from 28 to 26.

gaw: That’s just it. After the 5 year grace period Yesh Atid wants to force us into the army. As yseribus agreed, we cannot agree to army service. (Even if we don’t do Kollel. We could agree to go to work at age 18 or 20 or whatever, with no Kollel and no Kollel stipend/payments.)

gaw: I don’t think yesh atid is proposing the State forgo the current criminal penalties for draft dodging. (If they were, their platform would state repealing the criminal penalties.) They seem to be proposing to add on financial penalties. In which case my point still stands.

Learning supports Jews. Serving in the treif army supports the medina and the chilonim. Working in the medinas economy does much the same. It’s not a matter for personal choice. Generations of gedolim are on record about it. I didn’t join their army and my children and all kosher children won’t either. Those who are tempted by the “adventure” and the promise of being allowed to work are giving into the yetzer r”l.

Confucious -“Yesh Atid is pretty clear they wish to force chareidim into the draft with more than just a threat of loss of benefits. They are talking fines and criminal penalties.”

If this guy is serious – then him and his Zionist “Rabbi” assistants are suicidal. He should have learnt from his father – not to start up with the Charedim. His father was a failure and he’s following in his footsteps.

I don’t know if we are about to have Milchemas Gog Oomagog, but the situation in the Middle East is ripe for a war. I’m not talking about the so-called “Palestinians”, but about Russia, Iran & Syria. If you want to prevent this war -we need even more people sitting and learning. If he starts pulling people now out of Kollel – these Zionists are going to learn the hard way what the Torah says about K’oach V’otzem Yodi!

It’s amazing how the Chilonim have changed since the sixties. Back then most Chilonim realized that the 6-day war was Nissim Geluyim. Look how far even some so-called “religious Zionists” have come since then. They don’t even know what the Torah says about K’oach V’otzem Yodi Osseh Es Hachayil (Pun – Chayil) Hazeh!

Confucious: I don’t see that in the article. I guess we will see what happens. The state knows that the Charaidim will be happy to go to jail for their beliefs, so jail is no deterrent.

Yael.e, you have to count everything. That includes tax credits, havtachat hahnasah, child allowances. And that’s to a lot of people who financialy do not contribute to the budget.

I personally know that the zechus of Talmud Torah is a very great one. Just you have to consider how it looks to the outsiders.

To all the Zionists here:

It seems that because of Lapid’s arrogance, esp. his desire to be PM when he has not even sat one day in the Knesset, the Likud is NOW looking into a coalition between Shas, YH, the Mizrachy Bennett (BY), T. Livny and Kadima. And they are counting on the fact that Bennett will concede on forcing the Charedim into the army. If not, I guess they’ll send him the same way as Lapid.

He didn’t learn from his father who tried to put down the Charedim when he was in the Gov. To all those who think “Koach V’ozem Yodi” and keep trying to force the Charedim out of learning – you’ll learn the hard way what it says in the Torah about thinking that it’s all “Koach V’ozem Yodi”!

GAW, I do not think you are allowed to write Gedolim with “” — -pashtus, bizayon Talmidei Chachomim.

He didn’t turn down his pension.

Even assuming that all army services are non-negotiable, there is still “Sheirut Leumi”. Why can’t the Chareidim come up with a kosher service that doesn’t have the tznius problems with “Sheirut Leumi”? It’s not just a matter of rejecting army duty, the rejected it and refused to propose an alternative.

Also, statistics show that the poverty level amongst the destitute is 100 percent, compared to %7 in the rest of the country. Of course the poor use a disproportionate amount of the tax money and contribute a disproportionately low amount.

We must tax the poor more.