- This topic has 116 replies, 32 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
By Yitzchok Adlerstein, on January 25th, 2013
[Editor’s note: An earlier post provided the video link to Yair
Lapid’s presentation to the haredi law track at Kiryat Ono College.
Realizing that many readers were eager to evaluate the message without
investing a half-hour’s worth of time to watch the video, I obtained
an English- language transcript of the speech, through MakomIsrael.org
which created the English subtitles for the video. Our thanks to
Robbie Gringras of Makom for making the transcript available.]
You won.
There was a competition in Israel for Israeli-ness that lasted over a
century, since the second wave of immigration, and in the end you won.
We lost and you won.
For decades it was a Mexican standoff, where each one waits for the
other guy to give in,about which Avi Ravitsky, a religious man, wrote:
place where they have a rare species, almost extinct, that has to be
protected so we can take our grandkids there and show them and tell
Let me remind you, when Ben Gurion agreed to exempt yeshiva students
from military service the original number was 700. That was supposed
to be the entire yeshiva population, 700, and today in the Mir Yeshiva
alone there are over 3,500 men.
By the way, the idea that Jews once looked this way is a fallacy. It
comes from the fact that the secular Jews bought the story that the
Haredim represent a Judaism that had existed for thousands of years,
but in historical terms the Haredi movement is relatively new. It can
be traced back to the 18th century when the Hatam Sofer established
breakthrough of the Haredi movement came in the 19th century when the
rabbis were frightened when a new concept penetrated the Jewish world,
the concept of secularism. Secular Jews came in two forms, one was the
enlightenment movement and the other was the Zionist movement, and
against these two movements arose a counter-movement of religious
Jews. This counter-movement created you, the Haredim.
believe me, check it out for yourselves. Look at history honestly and
response to Haredi-ism, but Haredi-ism is a response to secularism.
And from the very first, these two movements were in constant conflict
until they reached the point of confrontation, and you won that
confrontation.
You won, not only in terms of numbers, but also in the Haredi presence
in politics and the settlement movement and as a consumer force and in
the streets and the culture and the educational system, you won in all
these places. And looking at you here, having heard the statistics, I
expect you to win in the job market as well.
There are two reasons for your victory: The first reason is
demographic, of course. When the State of Israel was founded the
founders had a certain vision, a clear perception of what it should be
like. It should be a socialist, secular, European state. That was the
mainstream vision, and it held out for 50 years, but different tribes
gradually formed around the mainstream.
The Haredi-Ashkenazi tribe and the Haredi-Sephardi tribe and the
came here from North Africa that turned into the tribes of the
the Ethiopian tribe, and each tribe had its needs and demanded
something from the mainstream.
Some of them had religious needs, like your tribe, the Haredi tribe,
and others had political needs like the national-religious tribe,
which instituted the settlement effort after 1967, or there were
economic needs such as those of the tribes of the periphery or the
Russian and Ethiopian tribes. Each tribe wanted something and each ate
away at the mainstream and the tribes gradually infiltrated all the
traditional mainstream axes of power, at first in the IDF, then in
academia, then in business.
And when the mainstream of Israeli-ness tried to defend itself,
because every group instinctually defends its own interests, the other
accept that. And they were right, because the mainstream really did
have had to tolerate that.
And something else happened besides, the mainstream was no longer the
themselves traditional or religious than secular. And Jerusalem is a
much bigger city than Tel Aviv, and since 1977 the capitalist right
wing has been in power most of the time, 34 out of 40 years, and a
survey from 1994 showed that 56 percent of the public believes that
the Torah was given at Mt. Sinai.
It became clear that the balance between the tribes and the mainstream
has been upset. The mainstream is no longer the majority. Neither
numerically, nor economically, nor politically, nor ideologically.
happened: the mainstream got fed up. The mainstream looked to the left
things of me, if they want me to lead the country, let them lead it
too.
And the mainstream turned into a tribe.
business, I can get married in Cyprus in a civil ceremony, and I have
to defend democracy because the other tribes, instinctively, are
oppressed them.
years.
become a country of nothing but tribes.
survive like this. Not only Israel but no country in the world can
survive without a common center, without a broad base on which every
can agree.
And that leads me to the second reason why we lost and you won: the
spiritual reason. When the Zionist fathers came to Israel they said
they wanted to build a melting pot for the Jews, and they truly looked
for a broad base of agreement between the different sectors. They
ignored the fact that the Jewish people already had such a base.
Because the Jewish people had a Father. They wanted to build a
secular, socialist melting pot and ignored the fact that the Jews had
an ancient Father who had maintained and protected them for 2,000
years, and this ancient Father of course is the God of Israel.
and cultural foundation of the Israeli ethos?
The founding fathers tried to skip from the Bible straight to modern
times. They wanted to establish a Biblical ethos, not a Talmudic one.
Because the Bible took place here. Because King Saul went to find his
They planned to base the bond between the Israeli people and the Land
of Israel on the Bible because almost all of them were yeshiva
scholars who took off their kippot and to them, the Talmudic tradition
belonged to the exile, to the home they had decided to leave.
So in order to establish this Biblical ethos they decided to skip over
the Mishnah and the Midrash and the Talmud and the Golden Age of Spain
and the Ramhal and the Hatam Sofer, as well as Bashevis Singer and
Shalom Aleichem and Rabbi Nachman of Breslav. And instead of a
multi-dimensional, multi-sectoral vision that could include all the
different types of Jews, they created an ethos that suited secular
Ashkenazi socialists and they wanted all the other tribes to submit to
ourselves.
So we tried to rely only on ourselves, but our attempt failed. If
socialist to withdraw even more into his tribe, especially when he
realized that the vision he was being offered had no room for what was
our being here. Because if we take our ancient Father out of the
picture, what are we doing here? Why would a secular person choose to
live in the worst neighborhood in the world, among a billion Muslems
that makes it worth living here. We realized that this was a problem
in 1967, just after the Six-Day War.
Because although the war was run by secular people, the reaction to
the war was utterly religious. Following the conquest of regions of
but there was a tremendous outburst of religious sentiment that led to
the founding of the settlement movement, but even more so, it led to a
sense of the miraculous. It was felt by widespread sectors of the
understand, that may not oblige us to keep all 613 commandments, but
already here. And the initial significance of this victory is that we,
the secular Jews, have to admit that our vision, the vision of a state
partners,
started by a Haredi from Bnei Brak.
the country will be, or the relationship between the citizen and the
Israel. And if another huge fire breaks out on Mt. Carmel
responsibility as much as mine.
You won, and that means the time has past when you could stand on the
winners, which means I can say to you: You have to consider my needs,
your life possible in this country, you also have to find a way
to make my life possible in this country.
Because victory has its costs. Losing has no cost. Losing is always
its own cost. But victory has its cost because it imposes
influence the Israeli way of life just as much as me, so you have to
ask yourselves the question: What responsibility does this impose on
Can you still tell yourselves that only secular Jews should join the
that the only poor people you care about are poor Haredim, and you
look at the problems that concern Israel, first and foremost the
allow yourselves to remain silent when a group of Haredi extremists
tries to force the State to endanger human lives and move the
Emergency Ward at Barzilai Hospital in Ashkelon?
Israeli as them, and that makes you responsible for their children
help them.
they were good parents and they loved you and tried to give you the
skills that children need who belong to a privileged minority living
among an indifferent or hostile majority. Your parents taught you to
protect yourselves and your friends and relatives and your lifestyle.
not necessary because Talmud study sharpens the mind and Haredi
students can easily make up for them later. This claim has two parts,
one true and one untrue. The true part is that Talmud study sharpens
whoever studies it becomes both a better person and better trained
intellectually.
English they have no trouble making up for it. They do, because the
human mind simply takes in languages and sciences
much more easily at an early age. A few months ago there was a big
conference at the Technion on employment in the Haredi sector. Shimon
Technology, the oldest academic institution for training Haredim, and
Shimon Weiss revealed the incredible statistic that more than 50
percent of Haredi men who are accepted to the college prep program in
the technological fields drop out before they graduate. More than
half. Among Haredi women who do study math and English the dropout
rate is between 5 and 7 percent.
familiar with this. I realize you want your children to study Torah
too,
rabbis, give them a chance. 6 hours a week. 4 hours a week. Something.
After all, you want to give your children the skills of winners.
They should know not only math and English but also what financial
what their rights and obligations are, and they should understand
technology because they live in a technological world which will be
much more technological when they grow up.
And they should know something else, they should know their neighbors
across the street, they should know us.
Haredi-secular relations in Israel, which is the Yom Kippur Law.
Israel has the hametz Law, but still, all over Israel people eat
hametz on Passover and buy and sell leaven on Passover. And Israel has
the Pork Law, but still, all over Israel people eat pork and buy and
sell pork. And the only law that they keep scrupulously is the Yom
Kippur Law.
On Yom Kippur, not one secular Jew in Israel drives out of his
driveway. And not one secular Jew in Israel would even dream of eating
in public on Yom Kippur. Do you know why secular Jews keep the Yom
Kippur Law so stringently? Because there is no such law. The Yom
responsibility towards you to do our best to enable you to live your
lives in your way and based on your beliefs.
his own tribe acts, someone who sees himself as part of a broader
society, as part of a nation. It obliges you to act with the kind of
generosity and courtesy that oppressed minorities may not be able to
afford, but you can afford.
tremendous advantages, this campus is a good example of that, because
thanks to this victory the next generation of Haredim, or at least
intolerable in a modern society.
And thanks to this victory you can speak to us about public space in
Israel which will eventually break down the Haredi ghettos. I realize
guests or foreigners in this country which is just as much yours as
mine,
have to be such a reaction against secularity and you can ask
culture and poverty and how extremists rule every aspect of your
lives.
either, yet secular parents circumcise their sons.
And we can hold midnight study sessions on Shavuot with thousands of
secular participants dressed in white who come to study Talmud and
you can take your future in your hands and decide what your
relationship to us will be. This victory enables you to be first class
citizens
work quite a lot for their country. First class citizens take
responsibility for its security, for the welfare of its people, for
equality, for its international relations, and more than anything else
Thank you very much.
This Lapid sounds worse than his father. And that is aside from his historical revisionism about Chareidim. Of course Chareidim are practicing the same default Judaism that Klal Yisroel has been practicing since Har Sinai.
I know. We rejected the teachings of Rabbi Dr. Rashi and Herr Rabbiner Joseph Qairo, and the university of higher education for advanced Tosafists. Then, from Russia, Poland, Israel, Iraq, and Teiman we joined the Chasam Sofer’s brand new invention, the Torah — oh, I mean, Chareidologyismness.
In my study of psuedo-history, I’m trying to figure out (i.e. re-arrange) who’s who. So, did Rebbe Akiva Eiger join his son-in-law’s new movement? Was he against it? What about the Beis Meir, for example? (Beis who? Beis Yehudy did you say?)
Oh, great Lapid, please teach me some more words of divine wisdom.
Of course – default Judaism. Of course we were wearing shtraamele and bekeshe at Maamad Har Sinai.
Of course, there was no one in the field to leave leket and peah which are mitzvos deoraiso because everyone was in beis medresh learning.
Of course, the same default Judaism – oblivious of the fact, for example, of the takonos of Rabeinu Gershom. No multiple wives – Excellent takonoh – NOT from maamad Har Sinai.
Th truth is, this Lapid may indeed be “worse” than his father, because his father was consumed by his distaste for chareidm and all frum Jews, whereas this Lapid isn’t so easy to pigeonhole as a hatemonger, because he isn’t. He is more interested in effective solutions to what he sees as problems than he is in simply making public mockery like his father did. That makes him more dangerous to the status quo than his father ever was.
If you really want to put your head in the sand, I suppose you could ignore him. But he isn’t going away anytime soon. In his speech, I saw many things where reasonable compromise could work without compromising halocho. maybe that’s a starting point.
A few short years ago they also said Tommy Lapid wasn’t going away anytime soon.
And see where he is now.
HaLeivi:
Head on! – had a great laugh
Is Lapid serious?
The Chilonim keep Yom Kippur as a compromise to the Chareidim?
Who is he kidding?
The Chilonim circumcise their sons because out of respect for the Chareidim?
He really is hallucinating.
Of course – default Judaism. Of course we were wearing shtraamele and bekeshe at Maamad Har Sinai.
Sure, if you define things superficially, you’ll find very significant differences.
Of course, there was no one in the field to leave leket and peah which are mitzvos deoraiso because everyone was in beis medresh learning.
Now you’re talking about a difference of substance. However, this is a new adaptation, well after the Chasam Sofer, so his point is muddled, at best. This is an adaptation to emerging realities (not the least of which is the army/work issue), and if anything, undermines his point that, according to charedim, “chodosh assur min haTorah” is an absolute dogma.
He is more interested in effective solutions to what he sees as problems than he is in simply making public mockery like his father did. That makes him more dangerous to the status quo than his father ever was.
He does claim so. It’s also very possible that his motivation in taking a less confrontational stance is to be more effective than his father, but that he shares the same goal.
A beautiful and politically savvy speech the kind that could only come from the likes of the Nachash Hakadmoni. Connive the enemy by chanifah. “Hashem only doesnt want you to eat from the tree because then you will be as great as him and hes afraid of that”. At leat we know he has some bible education.
Lapid is articulate and egotistical in equal parts.
That is a very well done speech.
Truthfully, I think of him differently after I heard that speech.
He sounded honest and intellectual, and he right about many of his points. The problem is that there is no such dialogue between Charedim and seculars when it actually comes down to business.
Adolph Hitler, too, was a great orator. Did you ever see a video him speaking — and how he would get the crowd roaring? He too was very telegenic.
It would make sense. He believes, as does much of the Israeli ruling class, that after three years in the army, most Hareidim will come out as normal Israelis. They might not make it all the way to hiloni, but at least they’ll be good dati leumi. From his perspective, it means they’ll have “won” by having become “real” Israelis. The demographic threat of Israel turning into a Jewish state, rather than a zionist one, would have been averted. Remember the problem isn’t that the army lack manpower, but that the growing hareidi population is threatening the character of the medinah.
He’s probably wrong. Traditionally, Jews are like iron. Fire turns them into steel. I would suggest a more likely scenario is we’ll end up with, for better or worse, an Islamic Palestine replacing Israel due both to the army being seriously weakened from within, and the Hareidi community switching from passive acceptance of zionism to active resistance.
A wise man once said, He who controls the kings treasure, controls the king.
As long as Money is accepted, there isnt much the Charedim can do, The money can be cut off. When you take somones money, there is always strings attached.
So if the draft (or national service) is refused, Aid will be cut off and a decision will need to be made either accept some sort of draft/national service or endure even more poverty than exists now even starvation
The Chareidim will stop paying Israeli income tax and their stores wont send in VAT/sales tax and wont pay any other taxes or fees, and the government wont have to send our yeshivas money.
They dont pay us and we dont pay them. Fair enough.
The Chareidim will stop paying Israeli income tax
They dont work as they are learning in Kollels. You need to work to pay income taxes.
VATS are automatically added to all purchases, its impossible to avoid paying it
I said ALL chareidim will stop paying any and all taxes. Working and non-working. Then they don’t have to fund our institutions and stuff.
Fair enough.
I said ALL chareidim will stop paying any and all taxes. Working and non-working. Then they don’t have to fund our institutions and stuff.
Fair enough.
make sure you dont use any taxpayer paid items like the roads or use the buses. Dont fly as the airports also are run on taxes. Also make sure that they surrender their Israeli passports and only use a foreign passport (If they can get one)
We didn’t ask the government to pave over the original pre-48 roads, etc.. We were happy using them. We can continue using the roads, etc. as we always had before.
For your information, Zdad, one of the largest roads in EY was built by a charedi entrepreneur. I don’t remember if it is still a toll road and if his firm still collects the tolls, as it was probably a Build-Operate-Transfer project.
And for Lapid’s information, the Haredi charities help more seculars than they do haredim. If national service includes real work for these organizations, then so be it. This will bring about a wave of tshuva, when people see that the haredim who they hated are better at organizing things they need than the medine is. They already see it when they run to the local Beis Chabad instead of to the consulate or embassy of the medine when they’re in trouble abroad.
As for foreign passports, it is the seculars who will need and get them soon. Why do you think Belgium suddenly apologized for its treachery during the Churban? Very simple – it wants to separate Jews from Zionists. It also wants to take in refugees when the medine collapses or becomes so miserable because, instead of fighting Iran (a battle it could win), the medine is busy fighting Charedim (a battle it will lose).
The only type of leader who will save EY is a Jewish Erdogan – a non-isolationist charedi who will make it clear that EY must be Jewish. That means you can do what you want at home, but in the public sphere, there are no avoidable halachic violations. Pork – sure – 500% VAT outside of a zone in Natzeret where no one can buy with an ID card that says Jewish. Treyfe wine or liquor – 1000% VAT because EY produces plenty of good kosher stuff. Operate your factory on Shabbos with no pikuach nefesh reason to do so – sure – only in a zone somewhere in the Galil that is mainly Druze and only with non-Jewish workers – and with a license that is quite costly. Drive on Shabbos – sure – with a permit that costs at least 1000 NIS per month. Weekend – begins Thursday night and ends Sunday morning etc, etc, etc. Toeva – parades are banned, clubs are closed, do what you want in private. Meanwhile, we’ll see what causes this illness and use taxpayer funds to find a cure so we can be laor goyim and put an end to toeva once and for all. Non-Jews posing ss Jews – a sum that is enough to start a new life back where they came from and a one-way ticket for all who want to leave.
Foreign relations – we have a nuke and if that’s what it takes you to understand that Hashem and not the UN gave us this land, that’s what you’re getting.
This leader’s name is probably Moshiach ben Dovid.
Avhaben, stop saying ridiculous things! The Israeli Chareidim pay those taxes from the money they get from the government. If the latter stops paying, there will not be anything to pay the taxes from or buy bread either.Get back from the la-la land.
Avhaben, get it through your head — it is the Medinah who pays the Chareidi bills, not vise-versa. If both were to say:”We are not paying anymore!”, the Chareidim would lose big time. They won’t have money to buy food (c^v).
Not paying VAT would require open rebellion. Not paying income tax would be easier since its widely ignored. Since the Israelis consider students and teachers to be “unemployed” (since from a zionist perspective, learning Torah is not productive work), they don’t collect income tax on their salaries. The biggest contribution of the Hareidim to the Israeli economy is the large amount of money (including money spent by foreign students) spent on financing Torah studies that comes from other countries; this will dry up since many of the foreign students are being sent by parents who won’t send them if they see escalating conflict in Israeli yeshivos.
In reality, the only “weapon” of the hareidi community would be to follow the Neturei karta option and ally with the Muslims against the zionists (this was last tried by what is now the Eidah hareidus, but it was then Agudah Yisrael, in the 1920s, and the zionists replied by shooting the frum community’s representative and warned that anyone who tried to make peace with the Arabs would be next). It would take extreme provocation to get the bulk of the Hareidim to prefer a Palestinian state, albeit with Jewish autonomy, over a zionist state (even one that persecutes Jews).
Lapid, if we won, then you lost. Start by shutting down your theaters and circuses. Tear down your stadiums. Cancel your culture budgets. Replace your malls with batei medresh and your parking lots with yeshiva dormitories. Restore the kollel stipends. Not willing? Then you don’t really believe that we won. Go back and enjoy your life for a few more years until demography catches up and then you’ll see who won.
Forget the draft. Israel doesn’t need another Kent State on its hands.
Here is Moshe Feiglin’s plan:
Draft and Equality: A Volunteer Army
Israel’s population in the sixties and seventies was half of what it is today. Organized armies sat on our borders, waiting for the command to destroy us. Nevertheless, army service was two and a half years and women did not serve in combat units. Today, the only regular army that is a threat to Israel is the Egyptian army (thanks to our peace treaty with Egypt) at the opposite end of the demilitarized Sinai. War has transformed into a high-tech, guerilla conflict. Nevertheless, soldiers are now drafted for three years, because the IDF is considered the “People’s Army.”
akuperma: even if what you are saying is farfetched for chareidim, remember that these “share the burden” geniuses ALSO want to draft Arabs. Yeah, I can just see the people who voted for Zoabi peacefully going along with that one. And those that do go along may very well end up like Major Nidal Hasan in Fort Hood, Texas.
zahavasdad – enough of your ignorant hatred.
Many people who learn in kollel support themselves quite well without the paltry stipend from the government (approximately 700 nis/month – less than $200!) and pay taxes as well.
I can give you endless examples of people like this. I’ll start with myself.
My husband has been learning in kollel for about 13 years. I work as a computer programmer (as do many of my friends). We have rental income – which many do as well. we pay income tax, property tax, bituach leumi, mas briut and vat.
Most of us live much more simply than those who aspire to higher incomes. We don’t have a car or go on vacations or buy luxury items. We have everything we need b’h. It will not be the gov’t which will break us – we rely on hash-m for our parnassah.
Lapid is a sly character who is trying to charm the chareidim and he will never succeed with the majority.
The only type of leader who will save EY is a Jewish Erdogan – a non-isolationist charedi who will make it clear that EY must be Jewish. That means you can do what you want at home, but in the public sphere, there are no avoidable halachic violations. Pork – sure – 500% VAT outside of a zone in Natzeret where no one can buy with an ID card that says Jewish. Treyfe wine or liquor – 1000% VAT because EY produces plenty of good kosher stuff. Operate your factory on Shabbos with no pikuach nefesh reason to do so – sure – only in a zone somewhere in the Galil that is mainly Druze and only with non-Jewish workers – and with a license that is quite costly. Drive on Shabbos – sure – with a permit that costs at least 1000 NIS per month. Weekend – begins Thursday night and ends Sunday morning etc, etc, etc. Toeva – parades are banned, clubs are closed, do what you want in private. Meanwhile, we’ll see what causes this illness and use taxpayer funds to find a cure so we can be laor goyim and put an end to toeva once and for all. Non-Jews posing ss Jews – a sum that is enough to start a new life back where they came from and a one-way ticket for all who want to leave.
I actually mostly agree with this (but do not suggest threatening Nuclear war). Selective taxing of “unwanted” products does a good job of raising money in the US, and since religion is in your ID in Israel, misrepresenting that should be similar to a felony in the US. There are “Blue Laws” that are based on religious ideas, even in the US.
I think that this should be part of the “compromise” offered. The State becomes much more Jewish, and in return the Charaidim buy into the state.
Too bad that it will never happen until Moshiach.
We haven’t won yet. We’ll have won when the army is chareidi, and we let the chilonim be irreligious objectors.
Most of my relatives are “Programmers” and and not the computer kind either.
Daas Yochid, you may be right; he may be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. But I don’t see it. You want to call him misguided, or well intentioned but missing the point in a dangerous way, well I don’t agree but it’s a logical understanding of his approach. If he was as full of hate as his father, he would never put two Rabbis in his slate (including his #2), even if they are Rabbis who you may not regard highly. If he was into giving a shtoch, those Rabbis would be conservative and reform “Rabbis”, but they are not, they are dati tzioni and chardal.
If you look at his historical analysis, It seems clear to me that he took the rhetorical approach of a socio-historical dialectic in his speech, and not a simple historical approach. Not surprised he’s drawing the conclusions he does within the context of the point he’s trying to make. Happens a lot when politicians play with history.
And unfortunately, the definition of “chodosh” is entirely arbitrary and entirely in the hands of those who asser it for themselves, so it undermines his argument less than it does the consistency of those who define themselves by the Chasam Sofer’s perspective.
Yael, how many Israeli Chareidi women do you know who work as computer programmers full-time and support the family?
Or is it just that Joe now appears under female screen names also?
I simply don’t understand everyone problem with what Lapid is saying. It’s true, believe it or not, that to a certain extent the Israeli Chareidi mindset is a result of the Chasam Sofer. When the Endarkenment started, the Chasam Sofer and Rav Hirsch were the biggest fighters against it. They used vastly different approaches, though. The Chasam Sofer famously said “Chodosh Assur Min HaTorah” and assured any connection with the outside world. Rav Hirsch endorsed a way to connect the outside world to Torah. Elu V’Elu. The idea that a Yid cannot be a Yid if he has a job that involves contact with the secular world (lo aleinu!) is ridiculous and never existed in Frum society.
Israeli Chareidi society is a combination of an outgrowth of the Chasam Sofer-niks and the stark opposition to the Zionist state which sought to destroy Torah. Well now they are admitting defeat. Torah is l’neitzach netzachim and the secular Zionists are just beginning to understand that and changing their world accordingly.
Now we are in a very unique situation that we don’t need to cut everything off from the outside world nor fit new lenses to view it. We can literally mold the outside world ourselves. We can create Chareidi colleges, Chareidi banks and Chareidi law firms. Why isn’t this happening? Because many insist that to continue to be “Chareidi” one mustn’t leave the Yeshivas. Well we don’t have to leave Yeshivas, we can bring the Yeshivas with us! Frum society cannot support a community that lives off of a Kollel stipend and secular society is opposed to the idea.
The secular parties in Israel have offered numerous compromises, like the Tal Law, but none have been accepted by the Chareidim. It’s time that the Chareidim understand that you don’t have to compromise Torah in order to change the lifestyle that has been the norm for the past 60 years.
The concept of never leaving the Daled Koselos Bais Medrash has passed. It’s time that Chareidim start working and going to college. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Yserbius123,
You and Yair Lapid must be a talmidim of Obama. He thinks he knows better what’s in Israel’s best interest than do the Israelis, and you thinkyou know what’s best for charedim. No thanks, we’ll stick to the opinion of R’ Aron Leib, not yours and Lapid’s.
If Lapid was so interested in accommodating the charedim, he wouldn’t insist that females join the army or S.L.
@DaasYochid
Just because I agree with a single speech that Lapid gave does not mean that I agree with every thing he’s ever said, much of which I’m certain is pure k’fira.
R’ Aron Leib Shteinman famously said that Yeshiva Bachurim who are not learning properly should join the Nachal Chareidi, which is why you see disgusting and slanderous loshon hora graffiti about him all over Geula and Meah Shearim.
All I’m saying is that being a Chareidi and sitting in Yeshiva because (and don’t even try to argue this one) it’s easier than working in a secular environment do not necessarily go hand in hand. They have been artificially made that way and the system must change.
I spent 3 years in one of the top Israeli Chareidi Yeshivas in Eretz Yisroel so don’t try to tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. Some ten percent of the bachurim barely showed up to sedorim on time, and many weren’t seen in the Bais Medrash for months. This was considered low for a Chareidi Yeshiva. Most of them would be modeh to me, the outsider, that the system is messed up and must be changed, it’s just that everyone was afraid to do anything for fear of some sort of mass secularization of Yeshivalite.
This speech was NOT given after the election, it was given at Ono College in late 2011.
Y123,
Of course you don’t agree with everything he’s ever said, but my point was that this speech is phony.
Please don’t tell me what I can or cannot debate. I have my own experiences to draw from. Your experience cannot define the whole issue. That would be quite narrow.
My argument was never against nachal charedi for those who are wasting their time.
I’m not Israeli, but I’m definitely chareidi and both of my parents work full time as computer programmers. My father didn’t really learn English in school, so he was given books to learn from at home. He taught himself programming without going to college. Yes, it’s possible. My mother didn’t go to college either, just a few courses.
DaasYochid
It’s just that it’s an issue that’s simply not up for debate. You can attempt to justify it, but the facts on the ground are that a huge percentage of Chareidi society exists due to the welfare trap. Why should a person subject themselves to long work hours, secular college courses and less learning for a meager income when they can easily sit in Kollel and have the government pay for everything.
It’s funny, you know? The Zionist government is the biggest supporter of limud haTorah in the world ever.
Lapid isn’t interested in accommodating the Chareidim, he’s interesting in eliminating the Chareidim. It doesn’t make his speech any less relevant or true. He understands that Chareidim aren’t going anywhere, so he compromises on his end and asks for them to meet him somewhere in the middle. The problem is that the Chareidim don’t seem to want to move from the far right. Even the “girls in the army” non-issue could have been up for debate, had they actually bothered debating it instead of throwing away the entire plan.
Of course it’s not up for debate. The Torah world will never allow the secular government to determine who gets to stay in the beis midrash and who doesn’t.
Daas Yochid, it is important for you and the Israeli Chareidim to get back to Earth from their la-la land. They are not some independant entity that has it’s own economy and army. What if the frei stop the money-flow? They could be in for a rude awakening.
Wondering where all of you people get your info.
Your completely false statements are in the CR and in the media in general.
I am a kollel wife of 18+ years living in E’Y.
I work (yes, in computers). I pay all of my taxes. Income taxes and city taxes.
What $ are we and all of the other kollel men getting from the frei? I live in a chareidi community. I would estimate that 99% of the wives work. All Israeli BY girls are trained from birth that they will work to support their husbands in learning.
The only ones that don’t are the chutznikim who have parents who support them.
No, I don’t have my own economy. I live and work as a contributing member of the Israeli society. My husband learns all day and is not out drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes, and I sacrifice so that he can do that.
How dare you go making statements putting down an entire community based on totally inaccurate information?
Anyone who wants to come and check my bank accounts, is welcome to. I have nothing to hide.
But find out the facts before you talk. I have to be honest, your attitudes are offensive and just plain ignorant.
Just an important side point to those of you who don’t live in E”Y – The chareidi world here is very different than the chareidi world outside of E”Y. So much so that I know a lot of people who were chareidi in the US but came here to find out that they were not chareidi. I know way too many more people who won’t move here because of this divide – they are chareidi in the US but know in advance that they won’t fit into the chareidi thing here. How sad is that!?!?
This is partially to do with how people define themselves – the word chareidi is just a word and the concept behind it is a moving target.
mdd: quite a few actually – have you heard of matrix?
Personally I don’t work there, but it is a system set up completely for chareidi women to work in hi-tech and it has several branches. The salary there is not competitive with the hi-tech sector, but for families who live simply, it is enough.
Mine was just meant to be a case in point that kollel families can be self-supporting.
Maybe you didn’t see part of my post: the gov’t stipend is approximately 700 nis/month – less than $200! Why do you think that this is the kollel system’s lifeline?
There are many poor who benefit from gov’t programs in israel, and I wouldn’t be certain that the lomdei torah are the majority in that group. Have you done a statistical study on this?
“Mine was just meant to be a case in point that kollel families can be self-supporting”. Yael.e, exactly! It was an example of what could be, but that is not the general matzav of the Chareidim there. You live in R.B.S also, probably?
The fact that the Israeli kollel system exists on the government money is well known. It seems that it is you who need to do some research.
Plonis, Israeli Chareidi women do not get full-time well paying jobs which bring in enough to support a family. The kollel system there exists only because the frei shell out a lot of money for it. I know you do not have a lot of extra time, but, maybe, do some research. You are not the whole Chareidi world over there!
mdd: Your argument is absurd. The wives don’t need a high paying job. They get even a lower paying job and it is enough for a simple life. And the money the government pays kollel families is almost nothing! It certainly isnt enough to live on and isnt what keeps the kollel families financially solevant.
DaasYochid: You misunderstood what I said. I’m not advocating for the government to force people to leave Yeshivas. I’m simply saying that a reason why Yeshivas are so packed has more to do with welfare traps than limud lismah. It’s not the Zionist governments responsibility to fund Yeshivas and I have no issue with them cutting the funds and do not see it as “forcing” people to leave Yeshivas.
plonis3141: Do you have any children? Do you remember paying for the hospital bills or insurance costs when you gave birth? No. Because “the frei” payed for that. Does you husband get a kollel check? Where does your husbands kollel get the money from to perform maintenance? Do you have enough money set aside to pay for your childrens chasunas (I’YH)? Why are 99% of meshulachim that come to my house from Eretz Yisroel? Why are 70% of them collecting for their own families? Why do statistics show that some 90% of B’nei Brak lives below the poverty line?
The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Chareidim don’t make nearly enough money to support themselves without government help, forget about there being enough to support community chessed and mosdos.
Ok people, you really don’t know your information.
Yes, bli ayin hara, I have kids. Several. And no, I do not live in RBS.
I have no idea what you are saying about insurance costs – I had my first kid in the US – it cost a lot there. Here, medicine is socialized and EVERYONE pays small monthly fees for kupat cholim. Me inlcluded. All chareidim included. Why is it that the frei are paying for that?
Yes, by law, money is taken out of my paycheck every month to put away money for later. And the company contributes as well. No, it is not enough money to buy a dirah for each of my daughters, but that is another topic about how things work here.
That is true for any working peron in E”Y.
Yes, my hubby gets a kollel check from the mir for around 700 shekels once very few months, when they are able to pay. I am paying for that as much as the frei are.
Any israeli woman working in computers is making enough money to support her family. (Except if she works for matrix which they only do for the first few years until they have some experience.) Same is true for accounting, bookkeeping, school psychology, the various therapies and many other jobs.
Those in teaching do not make enough money to support a family well, but families here make do with a lot less. Don’t forget there is no tuition. Most of my neighbors teach in more than one school, to keep the family afloat. Nobody around me is loafing around, sucking the frei of their hard-earned money. Where do you people get your information? From the facts on the ground or from what you are assuming?
Why is our situation any different than a frei family where the husband works and the mother is home with her kids? Because I am moser nefesh for my husband to learn? Why am I not paying for her births?
I am not arguing that there aren’t those who need government help, but let’s not make generalizations about the charedim in E”Y who have to wake up to reality. The people around me are all working very hard.
Daas Yochid, it is important for you and the Israeli Chareidim to get back to Earth from their la-la land. They are not some independant entity that has it’s own economy and army. What if the frei stop the money-flow? They could be in for a rude awakening.
Klal Yisroel as a whole, and toshvei E.Y. bifrat, are in for a rude awakening if ch”v the support of Torah is halted.
Don’t forget, this entire situation which we find ourselves in was caused by secular Jews who wanted to redefine Yiddishkeit to exclude Torah. Lapid’s speech was very clear on this point. Why should the Torah faithful community have to bear the brunt of their error?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.