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Sam- this in no way minimizes the importance of Talmud Torah, rather it emphasizes and focuses on the neccesity to have a source of stable income as a way to live a healthy, stable life.
Everyone here I humbly suggest when researching a topic like this always turn to the sources, the Rishonim and go from there. Shkoyach on the discussion
Rabban Gamliel said ‘yafeh’, he did not say ‘chayav’. This implies that it is possible to achieve the same result(mashkachas avon) another way. It is entirely possible that in his time there were those who learned ‘full-time’ and for any number of reasons should not have been doing so. Rabban Gamliel the Nasi therefore taught that Talmud Torah with Derech Eretz is Yafeh and it is therefore ok to do both. We know that his father Rabbeinu Hakadosh was zoche to Shtei Shulchanos and was close to the Roman emperor. In his time there were many talmidim learning torah all the time since they had ample support from the Nasi. When his son took over however, he was no longer able to support so many talmidim. He therefore taught that talmud torah im derech eretz is yafeh. This way the talmidim would be willing to leave the bais medrash and support their families. This is similar to the directive of Rava to his talmidim(brachos 35b). However one who is able to learn torah all the time and has a source of parnassa, need not, and indeed should not, get involved with derech eretz. Agav, it is known that the Rambam himself was supported by his brother for a number of years until his brother died at sea on a business trip.(yissachar zevulun). Certainly one should not throw himself upon the community but if someone is willing to support him, kol hakavod, try to become the biggest talmid chacham you can and be moreh horaos b’yisrael. This is what talmidim have done throughout all the generations. Sure, kollel is not for everyone, but neither is torah im derech eretz.
And since I’ve been here the gov. has gotten much stricter with their programs. They (the Feds) even changed the whole HUD/ Section 8 regulations because they didn’t like what some Frum Yidden were doing in Lakewood with those regs that were on the books. To me that is classic Antisemitism!
To most others it would be called a Chillul Hashem. You have your own reasons to call it otherwise (V’hamavin Yovin).
Well, someone is getting to sound a bit arrogant, and the funny thing is that he is wrong.
The Rambam clearly defines “Yofeh TT im derech eretz” as getting a Job. Look it up in Peirush HaMishnayos. The Rambam knows wat hes talking about no?
My brother Toi- 2 things: 1. The Rambam is 100% clear in what he says about ‘Derech Eretz’ meaning getting a job as he writes (and please look it up yourlself) “Rotze Lomar Derech Eretz hene HaOsek BiParnasa etc.- CLEAR AS DAY. Its also pretty clear from RASHI that Derech Eretz means Parnasah. Guess who also interpets it like that RABBEINU YONAH- wow! these 3 Gedolei HaRishonim all telling us to work!
sam4321 my previous post is also intended for you as well. Its a very nice Tosafos Yom Tov but look at what the Rishonim say.
Everyone here I humbly suggest when researching a topic like this always turn to the sources, the Rishonim and go from there. Shkoyach on the discussion
One would think that before condescendingly telling us to read the rishonim, you would have at least read the rishonim which were already quoted on this page. You didn’t even need to look up a citation- I quoted it outright.
The meiri is a rishon. The meiri I quoted above says that there is yesh l’faresh that it means working, and yesh l’faresh that it means middos.
I suggest, (with deserved arrogance) that you don’t know nearly enough to “humbly” suggest anything to us.
Health, the reason the government changed the rules is not antisemitism. It’s because the programs are intended for those who are trying to make ends meet, and can’t. Either they’re looking for work and can’t find it, or they’re working but just not making enough. They’re not intended for those who choose not to work and intend to rely on these programs. They’re supposed to be a b’dieved, not a l’chatchilah. In Lakewood, they’re treated as a l’chatchilah. People should be trying to make ends without help. If you still can’t, and you’re doing everything you can, then you can rely on government programs.
Feif un: Please continue to feif un. In Lakewood there may be some who treat it as lechatchila but most don’t. I’m not from Lakewood but I know plenty of people who are. In just about every other jewish community there may also be some who treat it as lechatchila and then again most don’t. By the way this applies to the general non-jewish population as well. Do you think everyone on welfare couldn’t find a job that would make ends meet if they wanted to? Knocking a whole city like that borders on serious motzi shem ra (leshitascha) and is simply irresponsible.
Feif Un -“They’re supposed to be a b’dieved, not a l’chatchilah. In Lakewood, they’re treated as a l’chatchilah. People should be trying to make ends without help. If you still can’t, and you’re doing everything you can, then you can rely on government programs.”
More Motzay Shem Ra! I take them and by me this is only a B’dieved. I don’t even know whether others are taking them L’chatchilla or B’dieved, but you know? And I have lived here many years. Perhaps you know these facts because of your bias against Charedim?
“Health, the reason the government changed the rules is not antisemitism. It’s because the programs are intended for those who are trying to make ends meet, and can’t. Either they’re looking for work and can’t find it, or they’re working but just not making enough. They’re not intended for those who choose not to work and intend to rely on these programs.”
Of course it’s antisemitism. There are some other groups (not to mention any names) in America that a lot of them have been sitting around all day doing nothing except drinking Booze & taking drugs and yet there has not been any regs directed at removing them from the social programs. As matter of fact, these groups have been doing this long before Lakewood was. Years and years before. And they are still doing it. At least Lakewooders are doing something constructive with their lives -like sitting and learning all day! I know -I know -You don’t consider this anything constructive, but some of us religious Jews do!
GAW -“To most others it would be called a Chillul Hashem. You have your own reasons to call it otherwise”
Chillul Hashem? You obviously don’t know the definition! Because the Gov. Bureau decided they didn’t like how the Frum Jews were implementing it – is Not a Chillul Hashem. They did Not break any regs. at that time! If s/o would lie on their application – that is a Chillul Hashem. Don’t accuse Frum Yeshiva people of doing bad Aveiros because of your bias against them!
Health, do you really take it as a b’dieved? Are you working to support your family? If you’re sitting in kollel all day, then you’re taking it as a l’chatchilah.
Feif Un -“Health, do you really take it as a b’dieved? Are you working to support your family? If you’re sitting in kollel all day, then you’re taking it as a l’chatchilah.”
That’s your opinion because you think Kollel is like sitting on the stoop all day! But actually most Kollel guys get a check for learning. And if all their incomes’ (eg. if their wife works) isn’t enough to cover their expenses -then they take Social programs which they are entitled to. This is called B’dieved. If the Jewish community would give more money to the Kollel fund -maybe they could pay them better and not have to take social programs. I know – “the Jewish community doesn’t have enough for themselves” -so how come I’m seeing all these ads for the Jewish community on all these Jewish websites offering Pesach all over the world in luxurious hotels and don’t tell me they can’t make Pesach. Because even if they can’t -they can stay at the local Hotel. Lots of Jews spend on themselves first and afterwards spend on others! So if this is the way it is -Don’t complain when Jews have to take Gov. programs to survive.
Just putting in an opposing view. As I have said before, I don’t have discussions here with some posters. It is bad for my health (no pun intended).
gaw- im offended. joke.
GAW – Hatred to certain groups like Charedim and/or certain individuals are bad for people’s health too. Not just bad for their health in this world!
There is at least one contemporary gadol who holds that learning torah is sufficient reason to benefit from government programs lechatchila. One reason is: since learning torah and thereby properly living according to the torah is a benefit for society in general it is in society’s best interest to have such people supported by the welfare system and other government programs. This argument has been made regarding the situation in Eretz Yisrael as well where the government programs support(at least partially) many who are learning torah. While I personally take a different view for various reasons, this is a valid halachic opinion and perhaps those who take government programs lechatchila, follow this view. From reading the comments here however, I suspect taking government programs is not the real issue. There are those who do not have the proper chashivus for Limud V’kiyum Hatorah, and it therefore bothers them that there are those who dedicate their lives to Limud V’kiyum Hatorah. Refuah Sheleimah.
Who is he and what exactly does he say? Does it depend on the learner’s level as opposed to what he could do in a profession (I know someone who is at the top of his and very much in demand as a lecturer but when he opens his mouth about Tora absolute nonsense comes out)? In nay case, he would certainly require the learner to learn full-time as if he were at a job with all the work ethics that entails. This alone would weed out a good many (in fact when a budget crunch forced the Lakewood yeshiva to downsize they simply gave out bechinot).
“Social programs which they are entitled to…”
That’s the main problem right there – the belief that social programs are an entitlement. NO ONE is entitled to anything. Those social programs were instituted as a short term stopgap to help people who were temporarily out of work, unable to get a job, disabled/ill and unable to work, or unable to earn enough to live on, even though they were working. It was not meant as a weekly stipend to pay off the bills and buy the groceries of people who were NOT ready, willing, and able to step up to the plate. If the wives are earning the living for them but it is not enough to live on, those guys should be out in the workforce. Period.
My tax dollars and yours are paying for their entitlements. And while I financially support Torah institutions of learning, I do not want to be forced to subsidize someone who is avoiding his fiscal responsibilities to his family. If he is physically or emotionally unable to earn a living, I will be the first one in line to offer money if I have it. Otherwise, hit the road, Jack, and pay your own way through life, as we did. And yes, learn Torah when you are not at work, or get a job that allows for free time for limud Torah.
That’s the main problem right there – the belief that social programs are an entitlement. NO ONE is entitled to anything. Those social programs were instituted as a short term stopgap to help people who were temporarily out of work, unable to get a job, disabled/ill and unable to work, or unable to earn enough to live on, even though they were working. It was not meant as a weekly stipend to pay off the bills and buy the groceries of people who were NOT ready, willing, and able to step up to the plate.
That’s what you say. But, you are not the legislature. And even if that is what the legislature thought, that is not what the people who voted for them think.
The legislature is afraid to cut medicare because the old people will vote them out. They are afraid to cut medicaid because the “poor” people will vote them out. They are afraid to cut corn subsidies because the Iowa people will not caucus for them.
I don’t have to use the interpretation of the law that Oomis uses- I use the interpretation that the people who lobbied for it use. The purpose of food stamps is for me to get free stuff that you produced. If I can.
Health, a kollel check is not nearly enough to support a family, and most guys in kollel could find another job that would pay enough. Therefore, you’re doing it as a l’chatchilah. As for giving money to kollels, I don’t feel the need to. Not when you act like this. I help support people who are learning – on an INDIVIDUAL level, and only those who I think could actually become something big. I refuse to support a large kollel that takes in people who will never become Rabbonim.
Avi K. Sorry, I will not say names. Someone might knock him personally and I don’t want to be the cause of that. It would not depend on his professional ability since his contribution to society as a torah learner/high level observer, far outweighs any other contribution he would make in any other field(I think this is the crucial point that many are not aware of and therefore disagree with). You are right though that his work ethic would have to be on par with those in other areas of work and he would have to be learning ‘full-time’. As I’ve stated elsewhere kollel is not for everyone,and is probably not for most people. Personally I disagree with the whole idea for other reasons but my point here is that benefiting from government programs has a solid basis in halacha and cannot be rejected out of hand(especially when the reason for doing so comes from a lack of respect for limud v’kiyum hatorah).
PBA: What did you do to my reply to Longrekel?
longarekel: The problem is not the programs, but when you live the life of a welfare queen on them (Legally or not), such as collecting WIC while pushing your Bugaboo. That is a Chillul Hashem.
gavra: agreed. A talmid chacham(and I use the term loosely) should certainly not live a fancy lifestyle whether or not he is taking government programs. It is simply not befitting for a talmid chacham to be involved with pleasures of this world. I heard that Rav Aharon Kotler was opposed to yeshiva people having cars. I don’t know if he would say the same nowadays, but the point is clear.
PBA: What did you do to my reply to Longrekel?
Put it under my pillow and hoped for a quarter?
I heard that Rav Aharon Kotler was opposed to yeshiva people having cars. I don’t know if he would say the same nowadays, but the point is clear.
Agreed. As I pointed out in other threads, R’ Aharon would be considered MO in the current system. A Gadol like Rav Lichtenstien for certain, but not Moetzes material. Too many shittos that conflict with the current “da’as Baal Habayis”.
L’maase though, that is what we see in the Yeshiva world. Chillul Hashem on a large scale. That just might be why “Yafeh Torah Em Derech Eretz”.
PBA: I would never be able to physically lift the pillow 🙂
No offense to anybody here, but how in the world does anybody know what R Ahron thought?? Its pure speculation! Agreed that he lived in a totally different world, but who said that if he lived today he wouldnt agree with the current kollel system?? In my opinion its irrelevant what R Ahron WOULD’VE said.
No offense to anybody here, but how in the world does anybody know what R Ahron thought??
R’ Aharon was quoted as saying that Kollel men shouldn’t own cars (as it is in EY, BTW). Do you say that the quote is untrue?
No offense taken.
Btw I am currently in Kollel in BMG and I actually agree with a lot of what has been said here. I think that kollel just isn’t for everyone. The bottom line is that everybody does it (and not just the best guys) because that is what is accepted nowadays. But isn’t it better to follow this trend than another one?? I agree that a lot of guys should not be in Kollel for as long as they are, and I think the expectation for In-Laws/Wife to fully support a family is crazy, what happened to tnai kesuba??? Isnt the husband supposed to give his wife and family the mezonos and not vice versa?? But i still think that IDEALLY Kollel is great- as long as guys would be more responsible and realize that yes believe it or not…. ITS THEIR ACHRAYUS TO MAKE A LIVING and not their in laws or wife’s. And anything that they do get from their parents/in laws should be extra.
Did all the kollel-bashers stop to consider that, lihavdil, a doctor also has to go through years of training before getting his professional degree?
Would you also say that a doctor has no right to fall back on govt. programs while he is in school? I would not. Therefore, I don’t hold Kollel people to a lower standard than doctors. So if they can’t make ends meet while learning towards their Rabbinical degree(s), then let them legally and ethically apply for whatever programs the government offers until they do get that degree and find a position in the Rabbinate.
No i’m sure its %100 true but what does that have to do with this conversation? Just because R Ahron thought that Talmidei Chachamim shouldn’t own cars doesnt show that he thought that everbody who is in kollel is a talmid chochom
Gaw- maybe he meant back then; not every family owned a car and it couldve been deemed a luxury, whereas today its an essential. to prove my point, R’ Boruch Ber was pointedly against people having telephones. you can see that today bnei torah do own them, and theyve mainstreamed. so cars could be the same. And why do you think that R’ aharons grandchildren and sons in law had less of an understanding of what he held then you? they all did and do support kollel.
Well said Hakatan
HaKatan:
In all fairness, Eino Domeh. The doctor will eventually go off programs, and is working towards that goal. If the Kollel boy would eventually become a pulpit Rabbi, then the comparison is good. Most who stay in Klei Kodesh end up as Rabbaim who barely get paid (and never on time) or just remain in Kollel, but never going off the dole.
HaKatan: the difference is that doctors will (usually) ultimately pay much more in taxes than a Rabbi will. They take because at that point they need it (and that’s only if they actually take – most places give them a stipend to live on. At least that’s what I’ve heard from 3 friends of mine who went to medical school).
Most guys in kollel are not using it towards their parnasah. Out of the thousands in BMG, how many become Rabbonim, Rabbeim in yeshivos, etc? Probably not even half.
Popa Bar Abba- I dont understand how am I wrong: I quoted the 3 Rishonim- Rashi, Rambam, and Rabbeinu Yonah- at least 2 are probably the most influential Rishonim- as saying to work- then you quote me one of 2 opinions in the Meiri as saying it means middos. I might be missing something but what comes out as the stronger view? 3 of the Gedolei Rishonim or the 2nd opinion in the Meiri?
Toi:
I will not comment directly. Nothing against you personally, but to protect myself from Avaira of Lashon Hara.
If you have a safek, ask your Rov what you should do. I was there when someone asked a talmid of R’ Aharon what R’ Aharon would have wanted.
Popa Bar Abba- I dont understand how am I wrong: I quoted the 3 Rishonim- Rashi, Rambam, and Rabbeinu Yonah- at least 2 are probably the most influential Rishonim- as saying to work- then you quote me one of 2 opinions in the Meiri as saying it means middos. I might be missing something but what comes out as the stronger view? 3 of the Gedolei Rishonim or the 2nd opinion in the Meiri?
You missed the part where you condescendingly told us to read the rishonim, while you were completely ignorant yourself.
I have no idea what the majority rishonim opinion on this is- and neither do you. Until you read my post, you didn’t even know there were two opinions.
In any event, nobody cares what the majority opinion is. You should follow your rebbeim even if they pasken against the majority of rishonim.
Can you give me a reason for why i should follow my rebbe against the majority of the rishonim? (btw the Shulchan Aruch also paskens people should work)
Also I am sorry I came off arrogant, I was simply surprised that people when offering opinions on this subject don’t look at the tradtional sources. Rambam, Rashi & Rabbeinu Yonah are the 3 major commentaries on Avos one finds when they open up any Avos in a set of Shas so I’m offering advice to people that before offering an opinion on something they should look at the sources.
Additionaly I think if you’d ask any Posek or for that matter any person whos learned in yeshiva for a while- whos opinion holds more weight: the Rambam, Rashis, Rabbeinu Yonahs or the 2nd opinion in the Meiri I have no doubt they’ll answer the former
Can you give me a reason for why i should follow my rebbe against the majority of the rishonim?
Because your rebbe presumably also is aware of the rishonim. We don’t always pasken like a majority of rishonim.
Additionaly I think if you’d ask any Posek or for that matter any person whos learned in yeshiva for a while- whos opinion holds more weight: the Rambam, Rashis, Rabbeinu Yonahs or the 2nd opinion in the Meiri I have no doubt they’ll answer the former
1. Irrelevant. You should just ask them what the hashkafa is in this issue.
2. I didn’t look up the rest of the rishonim. I quoted the meiri because it nicely summed up the machlokes.
If you care to know what most of the rishonim hold, do some research. This maamar is quoted in several places- not only in avos.
Also I am sorry I came off arrogant, I was simply surprised that people when offering opinions on this subject don’t look at the tradtional sources.
Apology accepted.
I don’t think anyone was offering an opinion on this. We were simply noting the machlokes, and relying on our rebbeim as far as psak.
Can you give me a reason for why i should follow my rebbe against the majority of the rishonim? (btw the Shulchan Aruch also paskens people should work)
It is a long Shmooze that has been discussed before here (and somehow never gets discussed in Yeshivos 🙂
Try this link:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kollel-talmud-torah-kneged-kulam/page/3#post-109692
“I don’t think anyone was offering an opinion on this. We were simply noting the machlokes, and relying on our rebbeim as far as psak.”
Just to point out- just because rabbeim might say that the ikkur pshat in the mishna is middos and not working doesn’t mean that the average guy should be in kollel for an extended period of time. Just because we dont have a mishna saying that yafeh talmud torah im “working” dosent take away from the fact that that the gemara says harbei assu v’loi alsa beyadam, and the fact that a husband has chiyuvei kesuba which require him to support his family. And I have never really heard a great answer to that from any of my rabbeim.
HaKatan, no one disputes that a person who has a future in Tora, whether as a ram, rosh yeshiva or rav should learn full-time all his life. The problem is with the vast majority who do not. On the one hand, unless they are independently well-of or their wives have great professions (and even in the secular world their are couples where the wife makes much more then the husband and even “househusbands”) the are subjecting their families to financial and maybe even mental and physical distress unnecessarily and on the other hand they are draining resources (which are becoming more and more limited)that could be put to better use by giving real learners decent stipends.
Feif Un -“Health, a kollel check is not nearly enough to support a family,”
Most definitely Not!
“and most guys in kollel could find another job that would pay enough.”
Most of them could not -No matter what you say.
“Therefore, you’re doing it as a l’chatchilah.”
Therefore e/o is doing it as B’dieved!
“As for giving money to kollels, I don’t feel the need to.”
Not that I thought you would feel the need!
“Not when you act like this.”
In what way do I act? Speaking the truth against Kollel bashers?
“I help support people who are learning – on an INDIVIDUAL level, and only those who I think could actually become something big.”
I’m not really interested where you give your money, but if a lot of “Frum people” don’t support Kollels then don’t complain about Kollel guys taking Gov. programs.
“I refuse to support a large kollel that takes in people who will never become Rabbonim.”
Not e/o agrees. Some hold they are doing the right thing by sitting all day and learning, no matter what anyone says!
Health – “Most [kollel guys] could not [get a job that pays enough] -No matter what you say”
What about what I say? There’s always opening your own yeshiva, hiring magidei shiurim whose shvers pay their salaries (it’s worth the kavod), charging tuition, and then fundraising on top of that. That doesn’t take much (non-political) talent. Also, you could build houses. Wait…you could build your own yeshiva building, buy it from yourself at a profit, sell the naming rights, fundraise for the inflated cost of the building which was covered by the naming rights, use the cash to open a girls’ elementary school, sell the name to that, hire (female) teachers at 6 dollars an hour, and collect your tuition in cash, so that your institutions could remain non-profit and you still qualify for programs.
See – it’s easy to find real honest work. My suggestions should be profitable. Worst comes to worst, you can always turn to laundering tax-deductible donations.
I would say most kollel guys are at least capable of this, wouldn’t you?
Avi K: I was discussing those who are in school for a Master’s or Doctorate-level Rabbinical degree who hope to then use that to earn a living in a chosen profession, whether or not that job is in the religious world. I know plenty of people with semicha who went on to be successful business-people and career workers in the secular world.
My only point, which I still maintain, regardless of any objections posted thus far, is that if you are trying to earn a degree which you hope to earn an honest living from, I respect that whether it’s Torah or lihavdil a secular field.
I don’t believe people become a Rebbi with the goal of also receiving food stamps. If they can’t find a job that pays enough and they have to rely on programs like these to supplement their income to support their respective families, then that is unfortunate, even though it’s perfectly legal to do so, if qualified. But I do not at all believe it is lichatchila for them.
And just because a doctor will pay more taxes after he gets his degree does not give him any more of a right to rely on govt. programs than anyone else who needs them, regardless of future earning potential. The point of these programs is for the here and now, to allow one to live like a normal human being while in difficult straits, regardless of one’s chosen (future or current) profession.
I don’t know the numbers (in BMG or anywhere else), but it can’t be more than yechidim who can learn their whole lives. Someone has to pay the bills, and all the programs just can’t do that unless you pay 0 tuition and before your family grows beyond 1 or 2. So the goal must be to get a job at some point, whether that’s a Rebbi, Rabbi or something else entirely.
Thought I’d add for everyone’s knowledge, the Tur in Orach Chaim- paskens people should go to work after learning in the morning. He quotes this Mishna in Avos as a source. So he also clearly learns Derech Eretz in that context as referring to work. (See the Bach)
good mareh makom srugee
I don’t believe people become a Rebbi with the goal of also receiving food stamps. If they can’t find a job that pays enough and they have to rely on programs like these to supplement their income to support their respective families, then that is unfortunate, even though it’s perfectly legal to do so, if qualified. But I do not at all believe it is lichatchila for them.
Ezehu Chacham HaRoeh Es HaNolad. In Yiddishkeit, there is a concept of Rov (as in the majority).
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