WZO elections 2025

Toi: What *would* impress you?

Both Rav Berel Povarsky an accepted godol beyisroel and Rav Yosef Efrati who was Rav Elyashiv ztl’s main gabai for many years and a big talmid chochom in his own right testified that they confirmed with Rav Chaim Kanievsky ztl that he supported voting for Eretz Hakodesh in spite of fully understanding the question with all of the potential reasons not to do so including his holy shver Rav Elyashiv ztl’s previous psak to which he responded it’s a different shayla. Whether one should or should not vote is dependent on one’s personal posek but as far as there being various gedolim supporting Eretz Hakodesh that is just factually true. When one has a halachik shayla or any question which is dependent on havana and yedios hatorah one obviously needs daas torah to know how to view the situation but when one is talking about what factually happened it has nothing to do with daas torah. If theoretically I ask my wife a question and she answers no and a big talmid chochom says she said yes to me I don’t throw away the truth that she told me no just because a much bigger lamdan and Talmid Chacham said she said yes because even gedolim have a right to their halachik opinion but not to change actual facts. If one can confirm that Rav Chaim Kanievsky supported Eretz Hakodesh fully aware of all the factors with the testimony of gedolim and talmidei chachomim with no personal negia just because Rav Aharon Feldman says Rav Chaim Kanievsky never supported them not because he claimed to check but just because he didn’t believe it made sense for Rav Chaim to do so Rav Aharon Feldman is wrong on the facts based on reliable testimony. That’s not an eilu ve eilu regarding that point.

What you BMG boys don’t get is that millions of Jews actually are living in Israel and Zionism of 120 years ago was just a concept. There is a way to be religious and participate in Israeli society. There are reservists who had to give up work and leave their families just so others can learn.

Here’s the deal, and it’s worth hearing: @hakattan and @BMG are making a ton of noise, but it’s all just hot air and nonsense! Saying that a group of Gedolim could be “misinformed” is straight-up disrespectful. It’s an insult to them and to everyone who looks up to them for guidance. And even if they were somehow off (which is hard to imagine), that’d still be part of Hashem’s plan playing out. Our job? Simple: we follow the Gedolim with trust, not throw around wild, made-up ideas like they’ve lost their greatness or aren’t real Gedolim anymore just because they disagree with others present (the past Gedolim don’t count for obvious reasons). That’s not just silly—it’s way out of line.So, who are @hakattan and @BMG? Probably either trolls hiding online or super intense young Buchrim who think yelling loudly makes them right (hint: it doesn’t). Either way, there’s not much difference—both are just talking big with nothing solid to back up their claims of all the Gedolim are against voting. They act like using harsh words and fake claims will scare people into agreeing with them. But here’s the reality: it’s not working! Everyone can see the truth laid out plain and simple—Gedolim are on both sides of this debate. Plus, if these two ever peeked at a psychology book, they’d know screaming and trying to freak people out doesn’t convince anyone—it just makes them look desperate. Whether you end up voting or not, both choices can be right depending on what you follow. The Jewish community isn’t fooled by their racket; it just pushes us to think harder and stick to what we believe. So, let’s tune out their empty shouting, respect the Gedolim, and focus on what really matters!

I seem to recall a story where the Brisker Rov zt’l said that a certain godol (I forget the details of which and regarding what issue) was being misinformed about the nature of a certain topic, and that the people surrounding him weren’t allowing anyone to approach him to tell him what the real story is.

Classic satmar propaganda.

Or its sheker
Or he is not a godol
Or he is misinformed.

They reuse the same tactics by every argument.

No honest debate about the issues themselves and no willingness to consider their merits.

.

@yankel-berel
as mentioned over and over by me, the Torah and its mesorah stand on its own and it is THE authority over us. There is no such thing of a “Gadol” going against the clear Torah, the Torah that THEY claim to follow. None of this is “Satmar propaganda”, rather it is simple: If a “Gadol b’Yisroel” does or teaches something against the Torah, that is a kasha on that “Gadol b’Yisroel” NOT a kasha on the Torah.

There wasn’t and never will be a legitamat “shita” in Torah that supports any moshiach sheker like Zionism.

@somejew
===========================

 somejew to yb:

as mentioned over and over by me, the Torah and its mesorah stand on its own and it is THE authority over us. There is no such thing of a “Gadol” going against the clear Torah, the Torah that THEY claim to follow. None of this is “Satmar propaganda”, rather it is simple: If a “Gadol b’Yisroel” does or teaches something against the Torah, that is a kasha on that “Gadol b’Yisroel” NOT a kasha on the Torah.

There wasn’t and never will be a legitamat “shita” in Torah that supports any moshiach sheker like Zionism.
=========================

The Torah and its mesorah stand on its own and it is THE authority over us.

AND “THE TORAH AND MESORAH” ITSELF IS COMPRISED OF ……..

…… GDOLEI YISRAEL WHO EXPLAINED WHAT WE RECEIVED AND PUT THAT INTO CONTEXT WITH THE REALITY ON THE GROUND.

Like the Or Sameach . Like the Avnei Nezer. Like the Emrei Emet. Like Rav Aaron Kotler. Like the Chazon Ish.

They all are part of the mesorah.

And clearly disagreed with that extreme daat yachid , named satmar rav.

—

Zionism does not have to be a mashiach sheker perse.
The fact that it was used in the past as mashiach sheker, does not mean that it has to stay that way forever.

Rambam [another part of our mesorah] writes clearly :

A RASHA could build a palace with the intent from Heaven that years later a TSADDIQ will shelter in its shade.

Yachin rasha vatsadiq yilbash.
—–

ZIONISM IS NOT KFIRAH PERSE. [Steipler – another part of our mesorah]

MEDINAH IS NOT KFIRAH PERSE. [Steipler – another part of our mesorah]

It is merely a useful tool in the hands of the kofrim.
Until we grab it out of their hands , that is.

That is the hashkafa of the mainstream and majority be’echut uve’kamut of gdolei yisrael .

—–
I know that somejew and hakatan will protest with all their might.
But when pressed for proof, they will fall far short and because of lack of alternative, revert to classic satmar propaganda tools.

“Or its sheker
Or he is not a godol
Or he is misinformed.”

They reuse the same tactics by every argument.

No honest debate about the issues themselves and no willingness at all to consider their merits.
.

I have never pushed any daas yuchid in CR, rather I have turned to the consistent guidance of the Torah as taught unanimously by the Gedolim, including “Like the Or Sameach . Like the Avnei Nezer. Like the Emrei Emet. Like Rav Aaron Kotler. Like the Chazon Ish.”

I started a whole thread here, one you were part of, that asked the simple question: “does anyone have any Torah Mesorah that these gedolim taught that challenges the Satmar Rebbe”. You did NOT have any published seforim to point to by ANY of these gedolim. Yet, I leave the question on the table for you to answer: “What part of the psak in Vayoel Moshe did any Gadol challenge as not correct Torah Mesorah?”

I am confidant you will have nothing to answer as you are defending heresy.

@somejew

I did.

You must have missed it.

I quoted osef mihtavim of emrey emet zatsal where he writes on zhuyot gained by tsionim from the british and the league of nations in e’y as “huchlat lo lehitnaged lezhuyot ha’elu, ki YAVO HATOV MIKOL MAKOM … ”

Not like Satmar Rav.
—-

I quoted rav yy kaniefski zatsal in karyane de’igrata that belief that the medina is athalta dege’oula is not kfira. It is a mistake , but not kfira,

Not like Satmar Rav.
—-

I quoted tshuvot avnei nezer zatsal in taf nun dalet ,helek yore de’a, where he says that 3 shavuot are not mehayev yehudim lema’aseh .

Not like Satmar Rav.

—–
Even satmar rav himself is not like satmar rav.

satmar rav himself will not invalidate a fully frum zionist ed for a get, and subsequent chilldren will not be mamzerim.

Not like Satmar Rav ……….

somejew, first we already found here that Ohr Sameach was not an extremist towards religious Zionists. Same with Netziv. Then, there are gedolim that you refuse to acknowledge as gedolim without an explanation, despite those gedolim being accepted by other gedolim.

This is a translation of the full letter from the Imrei Emes as printed in Osef Mictavim as found on HebrewBooks.

Collection of Letters
Letter #60

Letter from aboard the ship upon his return from Eretz Yisrael in 5681 [1921]

With the Help of Heaven (B’ezras Hashem Yisborach), 7 Iyar – Aboard the ship.

To my sons and sons-in-law and Yotzei Chalatzai [close associates/descendants], may Hashem be upon them.

Now, I hereby inform you of my perspective regarding matters of Eretz HaKodesh (the Holy Land). Behold, my heart feared and expanded, and I delighted in the radiance of its glory. I visited its institutions, and also the Yeshivos and Talmud Torahs under the supervision of the Chareidim, and I found them all to be good. However, they require assistance and help from abroad, and according to the help [received], so will they be able to expand.

I am very satisfied seeing that it is also possible to come to tranquility and conduct oneself there in the ways of Judaism as our fathers and forefathers instructed us. And whoever Hashem Yisborach has graced with wealth (hon) can, without any doubt, find his livelihood (parnaso) there in complete tranquility and observe Judaism properly without hindrance. However, even those who are unable or do not wish to settle permanently in Eretz HaKodesh, my opinion is – in order to help their brethren, the Chareidi Bnei Yisrael, to settle there – each one should set aside from his wealth a specific sum and acquire there a portion of inheritance (chevel nachala). And this bears fruit even in this world (Olam HaZeh).

And perhaps regarding this Chazal hinted “a third in land” – the intention is regarding the land of Eretz HaKodesh. For in Maseches Arachin, Daf 29, it is explained in the Gemara that lands outside the Land (chutz la’aretz) are like movable property (metaltelin) of Eretz Yisrael. (And by way of jest [al derech halatzah], one can explain with this what Chazal said: “In the future, the houses of Israel in chutz la’aretz are destined to be uprooted and transported to Eretz Yisrael.” Therefore, money has no security except in land, for through this, the remainder of the wealth in chutz la’aretz will also be preserved, as it is written, “May Hashem bless you from Zion,” etc.).

And to adorn myself beforehand, I immediately made – with the group I came with and some of the notables of Yerushalayim – a partnership based on a stock company (Aktsien Gezelshaft [Yiddish/German]), and we purchased in the city of Yaffo a plot of land of about twenty thousand amos [cubits] to build thereon buildings and shops, and within a year the buildings will be completed.

Therefore, I hope and request that from me they shall see and do likewise, for the time has arrived to do tangible things in actuality. And greater than this, I have brought several important matters and proposals for Agudas Shlumei Emunei Yisrael [Agudas Yisrael] which I must bring to fruition. And it is proper that there should be an assembly of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah (Council of Torah Sages) and also the general assembly of the Agudah (Konferenz [Yiddish/German]) in order to increase the work of settlement (yishuv) in Eretz HaKodesh with practical actions.

I visited the [High] Commissioner Sir Herbert Samuel [Note: Name slightly misspelled in Hebrew text as Eliezer Sa’amiel] and he promised that he would assist the Chareidim who come there to settle, that they should have all the rights that were given to other organizations, and he permitted me to announce this in his name. However, he added a condition that they should be at peace with the non-Jewish inhabitants. I said that I am assured of this, and I saw his face lit up (tzahavu panav). To his question regarding the number of members of our Agudah, I answered that it reaches the thousands (although I know it reaches the tens of thousands, may Hashem add upon them, etc. [Reference to Deut. 1:11]).

I also requested some special considerations (hanahos) for the immigrants (olim) who are settling, and he promised to consult on this with the administrator of judicial affairs in the country, and as much as he is able, he will fulfill the request.

And when I walked in the streets of Yerushalayim, in the place where the Arab inhabitants and their camels circulated, almost everywhere an Eivri [Jew] passed, they cleared the way with fearful respect (yir’as hakavod). Would that (halevai) we merit that there be a fraction of this in all countries among the inhabitants of the land. My view is that we can establish the relationship with them and dwell there in quiet and security (b’hashket u’vetach).

Surely you already know that in Vienna, at the assembly of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, they decided that the Agudah should engage in practical work in all professions in the settlement of Eretz Yisrael, without regard to the changing political conditions that come and go. And this is truly my opinion, that the mitzvah of settling Eretz Yisrael that we were commanded in our Holy Torah is not something dependent on time, only on the ability (yecholes) and possibility (efsharut). Therefore, even now, we must use the current possibility and work with all strength (b’chol oz). For with the increase of Chareidi immigrants to Eretz Yisrael, their influence there will grow, and this will cause the guarding of the holiness of the Land (kedushas ha’aretz).

Several times I visited and was at the Kosel HaMaaravi (Western Wall), about which Chazal said that it never moved, etc. And I understood that this is the hint in what Chazal said, “Ears to the Wall” (Oznayim la’Kosel). And I poured out my prayer (siach) before the One Who examines hearts (Bochen Levavos) for our brethren in the Diaspora (Golah), generally and specifically, and for our associates (Anash) and our family, that we be saved in all matters.

And regarding the matter of keriah (rending garments [upon seeing the Temple Mount]), as far as is fixed in my memory, one needs to tear until one reveals his heart. However, elderly Rabbis testify that they tore only one garment. And I said, if this is so, the explanation “until one reveals his heart” is that the tearing should be with the feeling of the heart (hargashas halev), as it is written, “Rend your hearts and not your garments” [Joel 2:13], and as it is written, “My heart, my heart for their slain,” etc. [Cf. Jeremiah 4:19].

And behold, my joy was mixed with the saddening news from Yaffo, may Hashem avenge their blood (Hashem yinkom damam), as it is written, “For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed, for Hashem dwells in Zion” [Joel 4:21]. And likewise the unfortunate news (l”t – lo tovah) of the passing (histalkus) of Rav Moshe Eliyahu Halpern a”h (alav hashalom). Surely they will endeavor to establish the boundary [inheritance] of his widow and orphans (yo”ch – yosmei chelko).

In other cities and settlements (moshavos), I was not, except in Chevron. Because the first time I was in the Holy Land (Eretz HaKodesh), I did not desire to be more than four weeks, so that it should not become routine (regilus) for me, as explained in Chazal, that anything more than thirty [days] is called routine. From Chevron I returned with human pain (ke’ev enosh), for disgrace broke my heart (cherpah shavrah libi) seeing how a maidservant inherits her mistress [Cf. Proverbs 30:23]. For at the site of the Me’aras HaMachpelah (Cave of the Patriarchs), where we are permitted to walk, we are only able to walk just a few steps on the stairs. And from there onwards, the mischievous Arab youths jump about and do not allow our brethren, the Children of Israel (Achb”i – Acheinu Bnei Yisrael) to approach further. In Chevron, they requested of me – the Rav and other people from the Chareidim who remain few in number after the war years – that I should endeavor that Achb”i from the Chareidim should settle there. And according to their words, this city is a place of livelihood (parnasah) in various professions.

And I repeat my words, regarding Agudas Shlumei Emunei Yisrael, to arouse all the Chareidim that they should endeavor to increase the settlement (yishuv) in Eretz HaKodesh, both by collecting much money for the benefit of the Keren Eretz Yisrael [Eretz Yisrael Fund] of the Agudah, and also to generally arouse the Chareidim that they should rest [invest] a portion of their wealth in Eretz HaKodesh, each one individually or through associations (chavuros), in various ways and professions. However, it is very necessary that everything be concentrated in one place, and each of the associations or individuals should turn to the center of the Agudah, so that all the work of the Chareidim will be concentrated and unified. And through this, the influence of Chareidi Judaism will grow, and the settlement of Eretz HaKodesh will be founded in the spirit of the Holy Torah (Toraseinu HaKedoshah), written and traditional (ha’ketuvah v’hamesorah). Besides this, there will be great good from this, for when everything is concentrated in one place, such that without it [central coordination] no one will act according to his own reckoning (al cheshbon da’as atzmo), the collection of information and strengths will not go to waste (l’avaddon), and this will be a great cause [benefit] for the entire matter.

And behold, when I wanted to endeavor regarding the strengthening of the Agudah, I realized that the prevention of the concentration and expansion of Agudas Shlumei Emunei Yisrael in Yerushalayim, is: because the leaders of the Agudah, in name, were mostly drawn into the machlokes (dispute) of the Rabbanim. And consequently, people who do not wish to enter the machlokes cannot be counted among the members of the Agudah, and all the more so (u’machshav) those people who support HaRav HaGaon R’ Avraham Kook Shlit”a. And although some of the latter proposed to me that they should form a separate Agudas Yisrael (bifnei atzmo) – nevertheless (af kol zeh), I could not give my consent (haskama) to this, for there to be multiple factions (agudos agudos) within Yerushalayim among the Chareidim. For I hope that it is necessary (and possible) for peace (shalom) to prevail in the city whose name is Shalom (Peace).

And according to the ways I found appropriate there, I began to strive that there should be at least (al kol panim) a partial peace (shalom katu’a) initially.

And behold, abroad (b’chutz la’aretz) there was a different concept (musag) and picture (tziyur) than what it truly is. For according to the reports (yedi’os), HaRav HaGaon HaRA”K [Rav Avraham Kook] Shlit”a was considered as if he were an enlightened Rav (Rav ne’or) and pursued money (rodef shlemonim), and they came out against him with bans (charamos) and curses (gidufim). And also the publications ‘HaYod’ and ‘HaDerech’ sometimes brought these reports that came from one side. However, this is not the way, to hear only from one side, whoever it may be.

And HaRav HaGaon R’ Avraham Kook Shlit”a is a multifaceted man (ish ha’eshkolos) in Torah and lofty middos (character traits). Also, many say that he despises monetary gain (sonei betza). However, his love for Zion crosses every boundary, and he declares the impure (tamei) to be pure (tahor) and shows it a [welcoming] face, like that which Chazal said in the first Perek of Eiruvin about one whose like was not in his generation, and for this reason, the Halacha was not established like him. And from this, came the strange matters (devarim hazarim) in his writings (chiburav). And I argued (hitvakachti) with him much, that although his intention is desirable (ratzui), his actions etc. (are not desirable), that he gives a hand to poshei’im (transgressors), as long as they stand in their rebellion and desecrate all that is holy (mechallelim kol kodesh). And that which he says: that in this he cleaves to His [G-d’s] attributes, as it is written “You give a hand to poshei’im” etc. – I say that for this we confess (misvadim), “for the hand that was sent against Your Sanctuary” [from Vidui prayer]. And the building of youths is destruction (binyan ne’arim stirah), even in the building of the Beis HaMikdash (Beis Hamikdash), as Rashi writes.

True, it was also decided in Vienna not to cause harm to the guarantee of rights given to us in Eretz Yisrael. And even, Heaven forbid (chas v’shalom), to others, for the good will come from anywhere. But to magnify the activities (hit’amlus) of poshei’im and to flatter them (l’hachnifam) in an alarming manner (b’ofen nivhal), to call them ‘Shalom Aleichem Malachei HaShareis’ etc. ‘Malachei Elyon’ (Angels of the Most High). This enrages the Chareidim in a way that is impossible (ee efshar) to describe. Also, his methodology (shitah) regarding the elevation of the sparks (ha’alaas hanitzotzos) is a dangerous path (derech mesukan); as long as they do not repent from sin (shavim mi’pesha), then the sparks have no substance (ein bahem mamash). And brings thereby danger (sakanah) to pure and clean souls (nefashos tehoros u’nekiyos), that they should connect (yischabru) through this to poshei’im by the power of the beauty of Yefes [allusion to Gen. 9:27]. Also a danger to the one involved (ha’osek) in this, as our Rabbis ZT”L instructed us. And behold, the wisest of all men [King Solomon] engaged in this, as the Midrash expounds “to endear them to their Father in Heaven,” these are those sparks, about which it is said “Can a man take fire in his bosom etc.” [Proverbs 6:27]. And therefore Chazal instructed us “Sages, be careful with your words etc.” and about the wisest of all men they said they sought to hide (lignoz) the Book of Koheles, although they later said “Shlomo spoke well,” yet why (v’lama) did they inform us that they sought to hide it? …to hide it? It is all to teach understanding (daas) even regarding a man distinguished among tens of thousands (dagul mei’revava).

Lengthy discussion (arichus devarim) is difficult to put to writing, therefore I will be brief (ekatzer). For I began with peace (shalom) and I prevailed upon (pa’alti etzel) HaRav HaGaon RA”K Shlit”a and he gave me in writing and signed with his hand (chasum b’chasav yado), saying: That although his intention was for the sake of Heaven (L’Shem Shamayim), nevertheless (af kol zeh), when he heard that there was, Heaven forbid (chas v’shalom), a Chillul Hashem (Desecration of the Name) and a diminution of Kevod Shamayim (Honor of Heaven) through the expressions (leshonos) in his sefarim, and therefore, for the sake of Kevod Shamayim, he nullifies (mevatel) these expressions and matters (leshonos v’devarim).

Afterwards, I met (nisra’eisi) with the elder Rabbis, HaRav HaGaon R’ Chaim Sonnenfeld and HaRav HaGaon R’ Yerucham Diskin Shlit”a, that they should nullify (yevatlu) the [Kol Shofar] and the ban (cherem) and the curses (gidufim), and they are ready and prepared (muchanim u’mezumanim) to sign on this, just as HaRav HaGaon R’ Avraham Kook Shlit”a wrote as mentioned above (ka’nil). However, they add, that they only wrote letters to Rabbis to deliberate (ladun) on these expressions, if they are fit to enter the congregation (kasherim lavo ba’kahal), but around them, it became very stormy (nis’arah me’od) and without their knowledge (u’vilti yedi’asam), the Kol Shofar and the cherem were printed around their letter. However, they also were unwilling (lo chafetzu) to protest (limchos) against these [publications], as long as the strange and bitter expressions (leshonos hazarim v’hamarim) were not nullified.

And behold, even among these Kana’im (Zealots) there are many whose intention is for the sake of Heaven (kavanasam l’shem shamayim), and among them are many with whom I made a covenant of love (karati imahem bris ahavah), for their company is pleasant (ki chevrasam ne’imah). However, it is explained in Akeidas Yitzchak Parshas Pinchas based on “Not in the earthquake is Hashem etc.” [I Kings 19:11] that such a path is not possible (lo yitachen derech kazeh). And had they approached HaRav HaGaon RA”K Shlit”a calmly (b’nachas) in the beginning (ba’rishonah), they could also have achieved good (b’tov) with him to nullify these expressions, and there would have been no need (v’lo hutzrach lihiyos) for the disgrace of a Talmid Chacham (bizayon Talmid Chacham) and the flame of the fire of machlokes (v’lehavas esh ha’machlokes). And for all sides, it is now necessary that Chareidim come there to settle, it is understood (muvan) that the unification (hisachdus) of all God-fearing people (yirei Hashem) there is necessary, so that the olim (immigrants) there can concentrate properly (l’hitrakez k’ra’uy) and guard Judaism (lishmor ha’yahadus) so as not to mix (l’vilti lehisarev) with the different ones (shonim [likely referring to non-observant or secular]).

Therefore, the approach of peace (hitkarvus hashalom) is extremely necessary (nechutza b’yoser), and although I have not yet completed it (lo gimartiv od), I have made a beginning (hatchalah asisi). And when Rabbis and Tzaddikim come there in the course of time – as was promised at the assembly (ha’aseifah) in Warsaw – they will be able to finish also in the further details (b’yeser ha’pratim). For I heard from HaRav HaGaon R’ Avraham Kook Shlit”a that he is neither a Zionist (Tzioni) nor Mizrachi. However, as a general Rav (Rav klali), he is obligated to draw near with the right hand (l’karev b’yamin). And he knows that one Chareidi man who comes there is worth more (oleh yoser) than the settlement of a thousand freethinkers (chofshi’im).

Also, as long as the peace (shalom) is not completely finished (b’shleimus), nevertheless (af kol zeh), when the disparagements (zilzulim) from both sides cease. Behold, HaRav HaGaon R’ Avraham Kook recognizes (makir) the Beis Din (Rabbinical Court) of HaRav HaGaon R’ Chaim Sonnenfeld Shlit”a and R’ Yerucham Diskin Shlit”a – and even considers (choshev) this a beneficial thing (davar mo’il). Because (yaan) he has contact and dealings (maga u’masa) also with the chofshi’im, as a general Rav. Therefore, it is good that there be someone who can arouse (l’orer) him regarding some matter and respond (v’la’anos) to the Rav. Understandably (muvan), without insults (cherufos) and curses (gidufim), only in the way of peace (b’derech hashalom).

And behold, from the words of HaRav HaGaon R’ Avraham Kook Shlit”a mentioned above (ha’nil), you will recognize his middos – for although most of the people of the Holy City (Ir HaKodesh) and many of the Rabbis stand on his side, nevertheless (af kol zeh), he gives honor (cholek kavod) to the elder Rabbis (ha’rabbanim ha’zekeinim).

I was called to the assembly of Agudas Yisrael, and there too I requested that they engage in the matters of the Agudah and not in machlokes. For I proclaim about the Agudah, an assembly (knesiyah) that is for the sake of Heaven (l’shem shamayim), whose end is to endure (she’sofah l’hiskayem). And although we also learned (shaninu gam ken) “a machlokes for the sake of Heaven, its end is to endure,” however, there regarding a machlokes l’shem shamayim, the Tanna asks: Which machlokes is for the sake of Heaven? And he answers, for example: the machlokes of Hillel and Shammai. To teach us understanding (daas), that to conduct a machlokes l’shem shamayim, requires that there be great people like them. However, regarding an assembly for the sake of Heaven (knesiyah shel’shem shamayim), the Tanna does not ask: Which assembly, etc.

And I added in explanation of the language of the Toras Kohanim [Sifra] Parshas Shemini, which I heard from the holy mouth (mi’peh kodesh) of my father, my teacher Z”L (Adoni Mori v’Rabi Zichrono Livracha) in the name of my grandfather, the holy Chiddushei HaRim Z”L, on this expression: That one must be accustomed to the language of the Chassidim and fulfill it in their hearts. In the Parsha: “This is the thing which Hashem commanded you shall do, and the glory of Hashem shall appear…” [Lev. 9:6] That Yetzer HaRa (evil inclination), remove it from your hearts, and you shall all be in one fear (yir’ah achas) and one counsel (b’eitzah achas) to serve before the Omnipresent (lifnei HaMakom), just as He is unique (yachid) in the world, so shall your service (avodah) be unique before Him, as it is said, “And you shall circumcise [the foreskin of your heart]…” [Deut. 10:16]. Why [is this relevant]? etc. You did so, and the glory of Hashem appeared. And the Parsha does not explain explicitly what this thing is that Bnei Yisrael should do. And the Toras Kohanim also hints: “That Yetzer HaRa,” and does not specify what it is. However, it is brought earlier in the Toras Kohanim: Why did Israel offer more [sacrifices] than Aharon? Because they also had upon them the sin of the sale of Yosef, see there (ayen sham).

And behold, that known Yetzer HaRa, is the one still dancing (meraked) among us, and it is the sin of baseless hatred (avon sinas chinam), as brought in the Gemara. And Moshe Rabbeinu a”h prepared then, at the beginning of the resting of the Shechinah upon all the Holy Temples that would exist until the final day. Therefore, now in the footsteps of the Mashiach (b’ikvesa d’meshicha), we must hasten to lessen the machlokes and the baseless hatred (sinas chinam).

And so I heard the Midrash explained: “Woe unto us from the Day of Judgment…” etc. The brothers of Yosef could not withstand his rebuke (tochechah) when he said, “I am Yosef,” etc. [Gen. 45:3]. The hint is that Yosef rebuked them with this language. He said: Behold, it is true, I am Yosef, standing in my righteousness (b’tzidkasi) and I was not changed by the machlokes. However, I ask, “Is my father still alive?” – this is Knesses Yisrael! For the Ruach HaKodesh (Divine Spirit) departed from my father, and this caused the destruction (churban) of all the Holy Temples, etc. And then they could not answer him because they were dismayed (nivhalu), etc.

And behold, also in the rest of the details (b’yeser ha’pratim), it is possible to come to a common ground (l’emek hashaveh). And then, with the unification of all the Chareidim for the word of Hashem in Eretz HaKodesh, they will be able to achieve much to strengthen Judaism (l’chizuk ha’yahadus).

And from the aforementioned matters, the Chareidim in our country can also learn to cease the baseless hatred (l’hafsik ha’sinas chinam) and unite (l’hisached) in the Agudah.

I considered traveling via Munkacs to meet with the holy Rebbe of Belz Shlit”a, because I heard he opposes the Agudah. However, in Vienna, I heard from R’ Dovid Schreiber N”Y his reason and justification (ta’amo v’nimuko). And I refrained from the journey, because I grant him justification (tzedek) in his response, that he does not oppose it because it [the Agudah] is not good – because then he would have raised an outcry against me, as is his custom (k’minhago). Ever since the time when he would see something that, in his opinion, could bring, Heaven forbid (chas v’shalom), some harm (nezek) to the religion (la’das), he would go out with noise (b’ra’ash) and write against it to all the dispersions of Israel. However, he does not enter the Agudah, for the reason that it is necessary that there be those who stand from afar and critique (l’vaker), perhaps something will be done which is not good. Because the way of the people within it is to cover up (l’chapos al zeh), and when he [the Belzer Rebbe] is not within it, he can respond to the multitude (la’anot al rav) and the like (v’chahanei la’eil).

And behold, the answer is correct (nechonah). Although we lack that tzaddik in our Agudah, nevertheless (al kol panim), it is good that the hidden reason (ta’am ha’kamus) has been revealed to us. And with this I think, that those Tzaddikim will now enter our Agudah, who did not enter because they hung themselves on a great tree (talu atzmam b’ilan gadol). But when his reason is revealed, they can enter the Agudah and rely on the critique (bikores) of that tzaddik.

I heard regarding the scandal (sha’aruriyah) that they made from laborious letters (michtavei amal) to turn the bowl on its mouth [twist things], to write what was spoken at the Vienna assembly – and kal vachomer (a fortiori) what I spoke openly. The freethinking newspapers (mikhtavei eis ha’chofshi’im) in Yerushalayim twisted it, until I was forced (ne’elatzti) to issue a denial (hakchashah) via the mission of the two Rabbis who signed with my name. Understandably, they could twist what was spoken in the inner chambers (b’chadrei chadarim) – True, Chazal said: “Any matter that is destined to be revealed, people do not lie about” (Kol milsa d’avidah l’igalui, lo meshakrei inshi). But haters of the Chareidim – [this hatred] has removed them from the category of human (migeder ha’enoshi). And for the sake of peace (mipnei darkei shalom), they permitted altering [the truth]. And behold, they lie (meshakrim), in order to bring about machlokes.

Regarding matters of the Chief Rabbinate (Beis Din HaRashis), I did not involve myself at all.

I hereby conclude (mesayem) my letter with a reflection of the opening: That from the ten levels of holiness (kedushos) in Eretz Yisrael mentioned in the Mishnah, one can benefit even now as from goodness (k’tovah), both in the World to Come (b’Olam Haba) and [in this world? – text unclear] both Perushim [non-Chassidic Mitnagdim], Chassidim, those of [high] spiritual levels (ba’alei madreigah), etc. However, not to travel in haste (b’chipazon) (especially after it became known that they have closed the borders for the time being), but with settlement of mind (b’yishuv hada’as) and organization (b’histadrus), and to know beforehand how one will make a livelihood (yisparnes) there and how much money is required – all in detail (b’pratus), for I wrote only generally (b’klal) according to what I heard and saw.

These are the words of your father, who seeks your welfare and your good (ha’doresh shlomchem v’tovaschem).

Avraham Mordechai Alter

Just stating the obvious, the question of Zionism is not a matter of Halacha in which one needs to write a Sefer to defend. It’s an hashkafa to which when there is mesora and the tzadik repeatedly supports it that’s enough. I don’t mean just one random story. But when it’s a story done in front on 100s of people in public over and over again that’s enough to say it has a place. And the tzadik need not provide the support for a pro Zionist stand. Just declaring it is enough.
That brings me to my point that the rizyna Reba’s all openly supported Zionism . It therefore has a place in Judaism. These were multiple Reba’s and holy people all openly declaring support such as openly celebrating Yom hatzmut.
Now to the next point R Kook zl. All we need to establish was that he was a gadol. And we know that because R Areya Levin and R isser zalman all held him in high esteem in addition to so many other older gedolim like R Chaim ozer and the chafetz Chaim. We also know that he was R Elyshav zl rebbe and mesadar kiddushin. R Elyashiv never let anyone bashmutz him and held of him in public. Does that mean that they held of his Zionist ideals ? Probably not . Although R elyshav worked for Zionists all the years . If Zionism is like the conservative movement you can’t be a rabbi for JTS and frum. That was accepted. And so by the fact that R elyshav worked for them, and held R Kook in such high esteem, it’s clear that Zionism isn’t outright kefira.
To be crystal clear Zionism is hashkafa that need not be defended by Torah sources. You could look at actions and statements by gedolim such as the rizyna Reba’s and R elishyav and that’s enough to say it’s part of Judaism and each one follow what they hold is best.
Lastly, the Zionist issue is different than the secular issue. A lot of the opposition to R Kook wasn’t about Zionism rather it was about that he cooperated and tolerated too many secular people who are against our Torah . This was the opposition of the imeri emes etc. That’s true with wzo too. And so it’s a hard call

@Always_Ask_Questions
Its a very confusing subject. is advocating to live in EY the same thing as advocating for a statehood? The Chovevi tzion definitely was very for moving to EY too, Its hard to know although it would seem that they’d be pro. I think its fair to say that anyone who advocated to move to EY after 1917 when the baflor declaration was approved knew that by advoctaing to move there you are by default supporting zionsim.

The other concept that somejew keeps on mixing up is what the oppostion was. The Imeri emes for example clearly wasn’t happy with R kook Zl giving heterim and being so open to welcome the not frum He doesn’t wite anything about the idea of shlosh shevous or taking back land. . Its not zionsim that he is against but rather its seculrism. There always two distinct issues that get confused. The Stamar hungarain camp was against ziosnism as were the briskers but the poylisahs and others were against secularism.

The following is an Excerpt from emrei emets letter :

…. True, it was also decided in Vienna not to cause harm to the guarantee of rights given to us in Eretz Yisrael. And even, Heaven forbid (chas v’shalom), to others, for the good will come from anywhere …..

=======
Rights given in EY.
Meaning Political rights by the British Mandate [and /or League of Nations] .

Even to others, meaning non-religious Zionists.

We will not cause harm to rights obtained by the non religious Zionists on behalf of the Jews.
Why not ?

Because the good, the above mentioned political rights in EY will come from anywhere , even from the non religious Zionists.

This is the essence of Imrei Emets words in plain English.

This is as far as possible from satmar ravs position.

According to satmar rav, political rights for Jews in EY brought about by Zionists is nothing more than ma’aseh satan, is stopping the ge’oula and has to be dismantled in order that mashiach be able to come. All this is pashut to anyone learning vayoel moshe.

Now , does imrai emet agree to vayoel moshe ?
What satmar calls ma’aseh satan , Imrei emet calls ‘good’ ……

Where is somejew’s basic logic and understanding ?
.

“I think its fair to say that anyone who advocated to move to EY after 1917 when the baflor declaration was approved knew that by advoctaing to move there you are by default supporting zionsim.”

This is a false assumption.

lol
satmar rav writes kook shem reshai’m irkav [if my memory serves me right] and somejew is joining his rebbi
emrai emet writes harav hagaon ish ha’eashkoliyot r avraham kook shlita,

—
and somejew is still trying to argue on the same thread of his quoting the above emrai emet, that there is no real difference between the gedolim and everyone agrees and that really deep down emrei emet holds of satmar shitah …

Am surprised why somejew has not been diagnosed with severe headaches as seemingly his braincells must be undergoing some real stress ….

.

I wonder what are we thinking about “observant” people that Rebbe is mentioning that (1) sent out false rumors about R Kook (2) sent out false letters in the name of the Rabonim of Yishuv. Are such people considered part of Torah and just sinned because of their zealotry or they are simply liars and worse than honest people who may not be shomer shabbos? Here I am getting dangerously towards R Kook’s position and not comfortable with that!

I’ll transcribe the content from the PDF for you. Here’s the text:

# KOL KOREI REGARDING THE ELECTIONS FOR THE WZO

The Zionist Movement was founded 125 years ago with the purpose of uprooting the foundations of Judaism and redefining the Jewish people from “a kingdom of servants of Hashem and a holy people” into a nation like all nations who are defined by a common language, culture and land. Since, in the words of Rav Saadiah Gaon, “our nation is a nation by virtue of its Torah,” the gedolim of that time did battle with this movement and ruled that anyone who considers himself a Jew may not support it in any manner whatsoever. It was for this reason that they founded Agudath Israel—to prevent those who keep Torah and mitzvos from joining the Zionist Movement.

Accordingly, the geonim the Chofetz Chaim, the Gerrer Rebbe, Rav Chaim of Brisk, the Chazon Ish, Rav Aharon Kotler, the Steipler, Rav Elazar Menachem Man Shach, and Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, zichronam livracha, forbade joining the World Zionist Organization (WZO). The Chofetz Chaim ruled that it is forbidden to join it even if this means a third of the yeshivos will have to close. Similarly, recently, a ruling forbidding this was issued by Maran Hagaon Rav Dov Landau shlit”a.

About five years ago, a party of Chareidim was formed with the declared intention of joining the WZO. It claimed that thereby they would rescue the holy sites of Israel from control by the Reform and that they would thereby direct monies of the WZO to the yeshivos. Now that at this time there are elections for the WZO, this party and others similar to it have embarked on a massive advertising campaign to convince those committed to Judaism to vote for them to become delegates to the WZO.

In order to vote, the voter must sign a declaration that he accepts upon himself the Zionist ideology, which does not recognize that the Jewish people is bound by the Torah. He also declares that he encourages participation in the IDF and that those who are exempt must serve in Sherut Leumi (national service for both yeshiva students and Chareidi girls). The elected delegates become full partners in the activities of the WZO, including those that negate the Torah. We therefore believe that it is forbidden to vote in these elections.

We do not intend to impugn the honor of those distinguished rabbis who ruled that it is permitted. However, our opinion is that there are many issurim (prohibitions) involved here, both for the voters and for the delegates. 1) There is a massive chillul Hashem in declaring acceptance of the heretical ideas of the WZO. 2) It is forbidden to agree to matters that the Torah leadership of Klal Yisroel says are forbidden. 3) For elected delegates, it is forbidden to join a group of sinners (hischabrus l’resha’im). 4) The voters are mesayei’a lidei aveirah (assisting in the commission of aveiros). It is obvious that the money hoped to be received from the WZO does not justify these serious issurim.

We have therefore agreed to publicize our opinion that it is forbidden to vote for any party in the election for the WZO. We firmly believe that Hashem has ways to preserve Torah amongst the Jewish people without resorting to violating these issurim.

We wish a pleasant life replete with the blessings promised to those who sanctify the Name of Hashem and who abstain from joining with those who uproot Judaism. May Hashem grant that we merit speedily that the entire Jewish people return to their Father in Heaven and accept upon themselves the yoke of Torah. May all of us together become a kingdom of servants of Hashem and a holy people.

For this we have gathered and agreed upon on Thursday, the 20th of Adar, 5785.

Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of America

A couple of questions from the recent disclosures of conservative movement pretending to be anti-Z chareidim:

1) it seems that non-O will benefit from O Jews abstaining from voting. So, your abstention will not just follow psak of some of the TCh, and go against others – but also assist non-O movements in their activities in EY …

2) While the disclosure talks about distributing genuine psak, we need to consider an effect of this supposed “mass movement” on the leaders who feel assured by some many people holding those positions. Imagine if a rav would know that majority of people are for voting?

3) As someone said on the front page. could some of our anti-Z posters be paid by the C- movement?