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I came back just to hear the debate on this. I’m not impressed folks
Toi: What *would* impress you?
zionism says that we are defined by a land language etc. we are only defined by the mitsvos. would you become a member of the churge to get money??
Both Rav Berel Povarsky an accepted godol beyisroel and Rav Yosef Efrati who was Rav Elyashiv ztl’s main gabai for many years and a big talmid chochom in his own right testified that they confirmed with Rav Chaim Kanievsky ztl that he supported voting for Eretz Hakodesh in spite of fully understanding the question with all of the potential reasons not to do so including his holy shver Rav Elyashiv ztl’s previous psak to which he responded it’s a different shayla. Whether one should or should not vote is dependent on one’s personal posek but as far as there being various gedolim supporting Eretz Hakodesh that is just factually true. When one has a halachik shayla or any question which is dependent on havana and yedios hatorah one obviously needs daas torah to know how to view the situation but when one is talking about what factually happened it has nothing to do with daas torah. If theoretically I ask my wife a question and she answers no and a big talmid chochom says she said yes to me I don’t throw away the truth that she told me no just because a much bigger lamdan and Talmid Chacham said she said yes because even gedolim have a right to their halachik opinion but not to change actual facts. If one can confirm that Rav Chaim Kanievsky supported Eretz Hakodesh fully aware of all the factors with the testimony of gedolim and talmidei chachomim with no personal negia just because Rav Aharon Feldman says Rav Chaim Kanievsky never supported them not because he claimed to check but just because he didn’t believe it made sense for Rav Chaim to do so Rav Aharon Feldman is wrong on the facts based on reliable testimony. That’s not an eilu ve eilu regarding that point.
What you BMG boys don’t get is that millions of Jews actually are living in Israel and Zionism of 120 years ago was just a concept. There is a way to be religious and participate in Israeli society. There are reservists who had to give up work and leave their families just so others can learn.
Chesky, if we trust your testimony, then what are we to of R Landau’s position that R Chaim did not hear the right question (or of posters who say that video is AI-produced?). Was now he mislead?
It seems that you hold that we can rely on gedolim to produce correct thinking subject to input they get. There are probably some gedolim who agree with that. for example, R Eliyashiv admitted that “I am not a navi” with confronted with information that was withheld from him.
I think the simplest resolution would be for someone to respectfully deliver this additional info to R Landau and R Feldman and to see how they respond. If it is not possible to get this information to a Rav, that would also be useful info. Any takers here close any of them?
Of course, you can simply point to the kol koreh that publicly admitted that there are Talmidei Chachamim who have an opposite opinion, although they did not quote them the way Beis Hillel would.
Here’s the deal, and it’s worth hearing: @hakattan and @BMG are making a ton of noise, but it’s all just hot air and nonsense! Saying that a group of Gedolim could be “misinformed” is straight-up disrespectful. It’s an insult to them and to everyone who looks up to them for guidance. And even if they were somehow off (which is hard to imagine), that’d still be part of Hashem’s plan playing out. Our job? Simple: we follow the Gedolim with trust, not throw around wild, made-up ideas like they’ve lost their greatness or aren’t real Gedolim anymore just because they disagree with others present (the past Gedolim don’t count for obvious reasons). That’s not just silly—it’s way out of line.So, who are @hakattan and @BMG? Probably either trolls hiding online or super intense young Buchrim who think yelling loudly makes them right (hint: it doesn’t). Either way, there’s not much difference—both are just talking big with nothing solid to back up their claims of all the Gedolim are against voting. They act like using harsh words and fake claims will scare people into agreeing with them. But here’s the reality: it’s not working! Everyone can see the truth laid out plain and simple—Gedolim are on both sides of this debate. Plus, if these two ever peeked at a psychology book, they’d know screaming and trying to freak people out doesn’t convince anyone—it just makes them look desperate. Whether you end up voting or not, both choices can be right depending on what you follow. The Jewish community isn’t fooled by their racket; it just pushes us to think harder and stick to what we believe. So, let’s tune out their empty shouting, respect the Gedolim, and focus on what really matters!
Alright, let’s get real here: I totally spaced out on mentioning @somejewiknow and @ujm in my last comment, so now we’ve got FOUR people—add @hakattan and @BMG—kicking up a storm of nonsense! These four are out here blowing smoke like it’s their job, but how about they step it up with some guts like Mr. Sokol did and put their real names out there? Unless, of course, all that yelling and screaming is just a cover for some troll or an over-the-top Buchor who’s learned how to act all zealous without the spine to own it. From what I’m seeing in these comments, it’s pretty clear: these four are the only ones dead-set against voting, while also trashing the Gedolim who say it’s okay to vote. They’re acting like those Gedolim are either messed up because they got “bad info,” not big enough to disagree with the other side, or—get this—aren’t even real Gedolim anymore just because they’re pro-voting. Wild, right?Seriously, it’s ridiculous! To say Gedolim could be wrong or not legit because of this is a total slap in the face to them and everyone who follows them. And if these four think shouting crazy claims is going to scare people into agreeing, they’re so off-base. People can see the truth: Gedolim are on both sides of this voting thing. Whether you vote or skip it, both can make sense depending on who you follow. So, instead of hiding behind big talk and no names, these four need to chill with the noise. The rest of us? We’re sticking with the Gedolim and tuning out the nonsense!
I seem to recall a story where the Brisker Rov zt’l said that a certain godol (I forget the details of which and regarding what issue) was being misinformed about the nature of a certain topic, and that the people surrounding him weren’t allowing anyone to approach him to tell him what the real story is.
> Brisker Rov zt’l said that a certain godol
So, why don’t you drive to R Feldman or to BMG and deliver to relevant authorities all this research about previous gedolim allowing voting – and confirm whether they will keep their view or change it? It will be of interest to many here and all over the world. Same for someone in Israel for R Landau.
Classic satmar propaganda.
Or its sheker
Or he is not a godol
Or he is misinformed.They reuse the same tactics by every argument.
No honest debate about the issues themselves and no willingness to consider their merits.
.
>>>Chesky, if we trust your testimony, then what are we to of R Landau’s position that R Chaim did not hear the right question (or of posters who say that video is AI-produced?). Was now he mislead?
If you’re going with that logic (1) You are in general calling everything RCK said into question (2) why stop by him? The anti-WZO voting crowd loves quoting alleged comments of Gedolim who are dead for100 years with very little evidence they actually said those things. But even if they did (I assume they did) why not just say they were also fed misinformation and didn’t understand the situation?
@yankel-berel
as mentioned over and over by me, the Torah and its mesorah stand on its own and it is THE authority over us. There is no such thing of a “Gadol” going against the clear Torah, the Torah that THEY claim to follow. None of this is “Satmar propaganda”, rather it is simple: If a “Gadol b’Yisroel” does or teaches something against the Torah, that is a kasha on that “Gadol b’Yisroel” NOT a kasha on the Torah.There wasn’t and never will be a legitamat “shita” in Torah that supports any moshiach sheker like Zionism.
smerel, exactly. So, according to this shita (that we seem to understand R Landau supports but maybe we are wrong) – daas Torah is not working unless you agree to the decision l’hathila. This is a problem, so I am surprised nobody asked R Landau about this.
@somejew
===========================somejew to yb:
as mentioned over and over by me, the Torah and its mesorah stand on its own and it is THE authority over us. There is no such thing of a “Gadol” going against the clear Torah, the Torah that THEY claim to follow. None of this is “Satmar propaganda”, rather it is simple: If a “Gadol b’Yisroel” does or teaches something against the Torah, that is a kasha on that “Gadol b’Yisroel” NOT a kasha on the Torah.
There wasn’t and never will be a legitamat “shita” in Torah that supports any moshiach sheker like Zionism.
=========================The Torah and its mesorah stand on its own and it is THE authority over us.
AND “THE TORAH AND MESORAH” ITSELF IS COMPRISED OF ……..
…… GDOLEI YISRAEL WHO EXPLAINED WHAT WE RECEIVED AND PUT THAT INTO CONTEXT WITH THE REALITY ON THE GROUND.
Like the Or Sameach . Like the Avnei Nezer. Like the Emrei Emet. Like Rav Aaron Kotler. Like the Chazon Ish.
They all are part of the mesorah.
And clearly disagreed with that extreme daat yachid , named satmar rav.
—
Zionism does not have to be a mashiach sheker perse.
The fact that it was used in the past as mashiach sheker, does not mean that it has to stay that way forever.Rambam [another part of our mesorah] writes clearly :
A RASHA could build a palace with the intent from Heaven that years later a TSADDIQ will shelter in its shade.
Yachin rasha vatsadiq yilbash.
—–ZIONISM IS NOT KFIRAH PERSE. [Steipler – another part of our mesorah]
MEDINAH IS NOT KFIRAH PERSE. [Steipler – another part of our mesorah]
It is merely a useful tool in the hands of the kofrim.
Until we grab it out of their hands , that is.That is the hashkafa of the mainstream and majority be’echut uve’kamut of gdolei yisrael .
—–
I know that somejew and hakatan will protest with all their might.
But when pressed for proof, they will fall far short and because of lack of alternative, revert to classic satmar propaganda tools.“Or its sheker
Or he is not a godol
Or he is misinformed.”They reuse the same tactics by every argument.
No honest debate about the issues themselves and no willingness at all to consider their merits.
.My response to always ask questions is until told otherwise my assumption is Rav Landau assumes Rav Chaim Kanievsky was asked the wrong questions the same way Rav Aharon Feldman does since he never claims to have clarified the issue with Rav Chaim Kanievsky. The reason for my assumption is Rav Berel Po Povarsky wrote a letter which my Rosh Yeshiva read intently which makes it clear that he personally was mevarer the issue with Rav Chaim Kanievsky personally with all the pertinent details including all the potential reasons not to be permitted to vote in the w.z.o. elections and he still supported voting for Eretz Hakodesh. Rav Yosef Efrati did the same thing as well. The son of my Rav just spoke to Rav Yosef Efrati’s son Rav Moshe Efrati and he confirmed his father being mevarer with Rav Chaim Kanievsky as well. This is in spite being Rav Elyashivs main gabai (since Rav Elyashiv had stated in 2010 that it was forbidden for Shas to do similarly. Rav Chaim Kanievsky told Rav Efrati he wasn’t arguing on his severe but rather it was a different shayla. Another important point someone else said Rav Aharon Feldman said that he checked with Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky twice and was told by him that he’s against voting. 1st of all that wasn’t Rav Aharon Feldman’s claim. What he actually said was he checked with his gabai twice not Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky himself but more importantly my brother spoke to Rav Shmuels oldest son in Eretz Yisroel and Rav Shmuel’s gabai who both said Rav Shmiel very much supported for Eretz Hakodesh 5 years ago and never retracted from his opinion and now does not have the koach to deal with the issue. My brother then actually was able to reach Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky himself last week who told him to follow his personal posek. Bottom line it’s true that Rav Shmuel does not have the strength to personally deal with the issue now but he certainly supported Eretz Hakodesh in the past and contrary to what some have stated never fell off his original position.
I have never pushed any daas yuchid in CR, rather I have turned to the consistent guidance of the Torah as taught unanimously by the Gedolim, including “Like the Or Sameach . Like the Avnei Nezer. Like the Emrei Emet. Like Rav Aaron Kotler. Like the Chazon Ish.”
I started a whole thread here, one you were part of, that asked the simple question: “does anyone have any Torah Mesorah that these gedolim taught that challenges the Satmar Rebbe”. You did NOT have any published seforim to point to by ANY of these gedolim. Yet, I leave the question on the table for you to answer: “What part of the psak in Vayoel Moshe did any Gadol challenge as not correct Torah Mesorah?”
I am confidant you will have nothing to answer as you are defending heresy.
Chesky, thanks for the info. Could you ask your Rav to publicize that letter from R Chaim, or at least to send it to those gedolim who are not aware of it and are making decisions based on seemingly incomplete information.
I did.
You must have missed it.
I quoted osef mihtavim of emrey emet zatsal where he writes on zhuyot gained by tsionim from the british and the league of nations in e’y as “huchlat lo lehitnaged lezhuyot ha’elu, ki YAVO HATOV MIKOL MAKOM … ”
Not like Satmar Rav.
—-I quoted rav yy kaniefski zatsal in karyane de’igrata that belief that the medina is athalta dege’oula is not kfira. It is a mistake , but not kfira,
Not like Satmar Rav.
—-I quoted tshuvot avnei nezer zatsal in taf nun dalet ,helek yore de’a, where he says that 3 shavuot are not mehayev yehudim lema’aseh .
Not like Satmar Rav.
—–
Even satmar rav himself is not like satmar rav.satmar rav himself will not invalidate a fully frum zionist ed for a get, and subsequent chilldren will not be mamzerim.
Not like Satmar Rav ……….
do you not yet understand that this is another lie from the Samech”Mem? There is no such letter. If there was such a letter, certainly it would be known to Rav Landau shlit”a.
All of this is obvious if you have Torah. Rav Chaim ztz”l was not a kofer. Rav Povarsky shlit”a is not a kofer. All this is the same old tricks of the tziyonim, maskilim, etc. etc. back to Erev Rav at the Egel.
Again, to be absolutely clear: the Torah is what we Jews keep and if any Gadol b”Torah would, chas v’shulem, veer from it and tell Jews to endorse Z or J or Sh”tz or any other moshiach sheker, HE would be problem and we Jews would reject him and his Zionist-like teachings.
somejew, first we already found here that Ohr Sameach was not an extremist towards religious Zionists. Same with Netziv. Then, there are gedolim that you refuse to acknowledge as gedolim without an explanation, despite those gedolim being accepted by other gedolim.
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