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Polls open! Let the debate begin!
Who can come up with a bigger list of gedolim for or against?Treif, apikorsus.
Rocky
Just this week I read a 40+ page pamphlet put out by a UK organization making a compelling case against.
I am certainly waiting for the counter argument pamphlet. (it gives me something to read on shabbos)Joseph,
If that’s your final psak, I’m definitely voting!
R’ Shmuel Kamenetsky Shlit”a went to R’ Chaim Kanievsky ZT”L, who told him that it was a good idea to participate. There are other Gedolim on both sides, but this is more than sufficient to back up the backers, and to refrain from bashing them.
R’ Shmuel Kaminetsky Shlit”a went to R’ Chaim Kanievsky Zt”l, who supported the initiative. Thought there are other Gedolim on both sides of the debate, this is more than enough to back the backers, and to refrain from bashing them.
R’ Shmuel Kaminetsky Shlit”a asked R’ Chaim Kanievsky Zt”l about it, and he was supportive of the intiative. There are certainly great Gedolim on both sides of the debate, but this is more than sufficient to back the backers, and to refrain from bashing them.
mobico:
Would you swear on your life that is the case? You are risking your olam haBa, if you are wrong (which you are).
There are zero gedolim who have supported this abomination, and Rav Aharon Feldman wrote a letter 5 years ago addressing why the alleged heter from Rav Chaim was nonsense.I have an extremely authoratative source that what I am saying is correct. An Adam Gadol who heard it from R’ Shmuel (or maybe his son).
I do not take Shevuos.Rocky
I personally understand both sides.
I voted last time. I will not be voting this time unless I see real names signing in favor. If you go to their website you will see pictures of them with gedolim. But I do not see any signatures agreeing we should vote. Anyone can take a picture with a gadol.Rocky:
Go ahead and name those “plenty of gedolim” who hold to vote. You can’t, because it’s not true. Joining the WZO has been forbidden across the board ever since Herzl SR”Y started that heretical organization.It is also simply sheker to imply that it’s “only” Rav Aharon Feldman and Rav Malkiel Kotler who said not to vote. That remains the universally-held position of Klal Yisrael’s gedolim.
SB613:
There is no “pro-vote” counter-argument. It’s simply lies, lies and more lies, and some additional deception thrown in for good measure.Not sure why my posts seem not to go through (until they all do at once), but at the risk of repeating myself:
I heard from an Adam Gadol who is in position to know that R’ Shmuel understood from R’ Chaim that this is the correct thing to do.
I do not take Shevuos under any circumstances, however.rocky> Using language like ” risking your olam haBa”
This is a variation of Pascal’s wager: it is better to be religious than not because you may lose eternal reward in one case, and almost nothing in the other.
Of course, in this case you are probably not risking your olam haba if you make your decision after carefully studying arguments of both sides and end up following one of the decisions. But you are probably at risk, if you make your decision based on biased and hateful ideas.
I spoke to R’ Shmuel Furst from chicago today, who is one of the biggest poskim in america. He told me that I should definitely vote, and that it is important that I tell others that they should vote as well. So I am doing so. If you don’t believe me, call him yourself, he is very accessible.
In addition, during the last WZO election in 2020, YWN posted a audio clip of rav shmuel kamentzky telling a bochur to vote for eretz hakodesh. They also posted that he sent a letter asking R’ Chaim Kanievsky his thoughts and R’ Chaim said to vote.
yeshivaman613:
Rabbi Fuerst cannot rule against the poskim and gedolim from prior generations, including Rav Elyashiv and all the rest, going back over a century.During the last WZO election, Rav Aharon Feldman wrote a letter explaining that Rav Chaim never permitted voting in the WZO. Even that fake permit last time was listed as “horaas shaah”. So Rav Chaim never allowed anybody to vote in this election, even if you fool yourself into believing that he allowed it last time.
AAQ:
Ohn be peles was a pretty earnest guy. But he would have died with the rest of Korach’s people had his wife not saved him. Don’t be so sure that you can “carefully study…both sides” and be sure that you can then decide what you want.Unlike in “Modern Orthodoxy, where rabbis are consulted only for what the laymen consider to be “halakhic” questions, in actual Judaism, we have a concept called mesorah. We also have an obligation to “make for yourself a rav” who follows that mesorah. So, when in doubt, particularly when dealing with severe prohibitions like this, one is obligated to ask a competent Rav.
yeshivaman, thanks! did the Dayan tell you how to vote (like R Shmuel does) or left it for you to decide? (or is it self-understood within the community that you need to vote for as certain party only)
“The proof is on video.”
1)The Agudah writes against EH and gedolim in America say assur to vote because rav Chaim’s support is a farce. rav chaims support was fabricated.
2)EH has a few years to video rav chaim explaining that they are and wrong and he looked into the shayla and is aware of the pratim and is still machria to do it (a few years and their parnasa and millions of dollars on the line) and all they can get is a video that their embarrassed to present to the public because it proves the gedolim were correct!
Checkmate
“The proof is on video.”
1)The Agudah writes against EH and gedolim in America and rav Feldman writes to the whole world that it’s assur to vote because rav Chaim’s support is a farce.
2)EH has a few years to video rav chaim explaining that they are and wrong and he looked into the shayla and is aware of the pratim and is still machria to do it (a few years and their parnasa and millions of dollars on the line) and all they can get is a video that their embarrassed to present to the public because it proves the gedolim were correct!
@HaKatan – Please define Mesorah for all of us so-called “ignorant laymen”.
Its the same shaila as voting for israeli elections
We dont hold of the medina and not of the WZO, but Gedoilei Yisroel paskened to vote in order to save klal yisroel from the gezeirois of the medina, so to with the WZO if we dont vote the amounts of money going to the reform and liberal organizations is a real Gezeira,
as I heard from R Avrohom Gurwicz Shlita that the purpose of voting for the WZO is that the money should not reach them and be’etzem we can bury the money, but we might as well use it..Rabbi Yair Hoffman said this on http://www.VINNEWS.com on 2025 March 13:
If American Bnei Torah were to vote, as Rav Chaim Kanievsky
(zichron tzaddik v’kadosh livracha) paskened to do –
the dangerous threat of Reform Judaism, Wokism in Eretz Yisroel,
and all the other apikorsisha “isms” would be severely diminished.The largest slate of the delegates is a Reform Jewish organization
that supports many projects that Orthodox Jews would deem
antithetical and anathema to Torah Judaism.Arza supports the movement to take away the Kotel from Orthodox Jewish administration.
It would be particularly sad if the great talmid chochom,
Rav Shmuel Rabinovitch, the Rav of the Kosel and
a mechaber sefer extraordinaire, were to be replaced with “Rabbi Jill.”Money matters in influencing reality.
The WZO election deals out nearly 2 billion dollars every year.Those that urged frum Jews to vote in the election were
Rav Chaim Kanievsky zatzal – the Sar haTorah, Rav Gershon Edelstein zt”l,
Rav Dovid Feinstein zt”l and lbc”l Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky shlita.
Numerous Poskim have said that there is no issue in voting.The Reform movement are well aware that all that is necessary
for their agenda to be replaced is if the Torah community
would wake up and vote.It is for this reason that the credit card that is used for
the $5 fee to vote is limited to only 3 people per household.
Chareidim have more children and this is their way of limiting the frum vote.To vote – go to eretzhakodesh.org, click on the vote button and follow the instructions there.
The author can be reached at yairhoffman2@gmail.com
===================================FULL DISCLOSURE: I did not write any part of this article.
I only copied it from Rabbi Yair Hoffman and http://www.VINNEWS.com.*Unlike in “Modern Orthodoxy, where rabbis are consulted only for what the laymen consider to be “halakhic” questions, in actual Judaism, we have a concept called mesorah. We also have an obligation to “make for yourself a rav” who follows that mesorah. So, when in doubt, particularly when dealing with severe prohibitions like this, one is obligated to ask a competent Rav.”
Define Mesorah. That word does not mean what you think it does.
AAQ: R’ Fuerst told me to vote for Eretz Hakodesh.
I spoke to R’ Shmuel Kamenetsky’s gabbai about it, as R’ Shmuel is in the hospital. He told me R’ Shmuel never retracted his original position in favor of voting for Eretz Hakodesh.
Regarding what gedolim of previous generations would have held about this exact issue, it is impossible to know without asking todays gedolim, and all the ones I asked told me to vote for eretz hakodesh. Even if “joining” the WZO would have been a shayla when zionism was a real hava amina and nisayon, today I think it’s pretty clear to everyone that not a single person voting for eretz hakodesh believes in “zionism” in any way, shape, or form, including myself.
There’s not one Gadol that endorsed EH this time & a large number of Gedolim signed that it’s Asur to vote. This includes all the Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva, Rav Shlomo Miller of Toronto, Rav Elya Ber, Rav Yitzchok Sorotzkin, Rav Ahron Feldman, among others. Unfortunately, I voted last time but won’t be doing so this time. If Rov Gedolei Yisroel say it’s asur, I stay away.
ZSK:
The gedolim from the time Herzl SR”Y started this very WZO, absolutely forbade joining the WZO. As recently as 2010, even Rav Elyashiv who worked for the Zionists forbade even the Shas party in the government of Israel from joining the WZO.SQUARE_ROOT:
Rabbi Hoffman cannot rule against all the gedolim who absolutely forbade voting. His assertions about gedolim permitting voting are simply false. The .COM site Hareh Betzba has much more information on this.yeshivaman613:
Where is the teshuva from him that we can see? And that original alleged heter from Rav Chaim 5 years ago, upon which lbc”l Rabbi S. Kaminetsky based himself, claimed a “horaas shaah” as Rav Aharon Feldman pointed out.
Regarding your nonsense about not believing in Zionism, first of all, given your stated position, it is very possible that you do even if you don’t realize it.
Regardless, there are numerous problems with joining the WZO/voting in their elections, as all the gedolim have stated, even if you don’t think you believe in any part of Zionism. Oh, and if you look at EH positions and reports from the past five years, they certainly do believe in – and spread – Zionism.Yeshivaman, thanks for the information.
But are you sure you are not a zionist in any form? If you are voting, you presumably care about wzo votes about issues in Israel? Don’t feel bad about this, I know one charedi rav who was asked by some non observant people if he is a zionist. He didn’t have a heart to say no, he said yes, in a sense of mehazir shehinaso ltziyon.I asked you to define Mesorah as a term. Your answer is definitely *not* the definition of Mesorah. Try again.
All you non voters are just trying to justify yourselves, but we all know that you should be voting.
@ ZSK
“I asked you to define Mesorah as a term”
Good luck with that
hakatan- you cant argue with yeshivaman if what hes saying is true, he says spoke to r’ fuerst and r’ shmuel’s gabbai personally, your only argument would to claim hes making it all up. (or be machria between the gedolim, if your ego is big enough)
Rocky:
If you do the research as to what EH has done the past five years, you would know that they obviously lied to Rav Gurwicz, just as they essentially admitted they deceived Rav Chaim. See the .com site harehbetzba, which has a well-written PDF on all this. Rav Aharon Feldman has stated that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky never was happy with the supposed heter from Rav Chaim, especially because they wouldn’t provide it in writing, and reiterated in 2022, two years after the voting abomination five years ago, that he does not support voting.There are zero gedolim supporting violating a century+ of wall-to-wall mesorah absolutely prohibiting joining the WZO even to save lives. See the booklet there.
Questionable:
All the idolaters are trying to justify their genuflecting to their idol. But we all know that it has always been forbidden and always will be until that idol too shall turn to dust.Rocky, so if you have enough backup to vote, you should now look into who to vote for.
don’t understand something, for the average guy who isn’t a talmid of Rav Avrohom shlita why would they vote, allow me to explain. Besides for the fact that Rav Aron Feldman wrote in his famous article that it is very unclear whether rav chaim ztl was matir it and explicitly said that Rav shmuel confirmed to him twice that he retracted his support, but suppose there would be a hilchos shabbas Sheila that the gedolim held was aasur for a hundred years hence in our case the Mishna Berura Rav Moshe Rav Aron Rav Elyashiv…. And some rabbanim would be mechadesh a heter and many rabanim hence in our case Rav Dov The Moetzes in America Rav elya ber… Say the issur is still in place, why and who would be meikel?
There is a clear video of R’ A. Gurewicz to vote for EH.
There is a clear video of R’ A. Gurewicz to vote for EH.
Matter clarified.I don’t think any frum person should vote in the election. This would allow a better opportunity that the money would be distributed to people who believe in yishuv haaretz and not waste it on farkrumpt mosdos.
hakatan-one can always wave off daas torah by saying the gadol was lied to, have an open mind
Observer,
There is clear difference between halakha that is reasonably static over time and a psak that depends on a combination of issues at the time. Thus, r Shach deciding to participate more in Israeli politics is not a rejection of rabbis of previous generation.Anon, are you sure. Wzo has large reform and anti religion factions, so the anti zionist vote in wzo will help to counter those votes.
ard > one can always wave off daas torah by saying the gadol was lied to, have an open mind
I’ve heard gedolim admitting that, such as
– RJBS first was against open demonstrations for Soviet Jews (like other gedolims) but then changed it based on realization that his Israeli contacts provided him biased info (suggesting what was better politically for Israel at the time, not what was better for Soviet Jews themselves)
– R Eliashiv supposedly being told that R N Kamenetsky continues selling the book despite him pausing the sales, and later, supposedly, explaining “how would I know I was lied, I am not a navi”.These admissions raise the question how “daas Torah” operates – is it guaranteed Torah-based inference applied to externally provided facts? Does DT include ability to evaluate sources of information? Every beis din is supposed to be able to interrogate witnesses. What does it mean that an elderly DT is in full control of his Torah-attuned inference but is not able to pick up the phone and call relevant people? Given cases like that, how do you evaluate DS advise for elections? Do you respectfully ask him what his sources are?
@always_ask_questions
I don’t understand most of what you are asking. all these things are dealt with as basics of shulchan aruch. Do we not have a Torah that tells us how to know what to do?
(real) poskim have always labored to explain their reasons so that we will know how to apply the rules to the next situation. one simply cannot paskin if he doesn’t know the sources for what his rebbe taught him from. if you can’t paskin, you depend on what you already have or turn to someone who can paskin. again, all this according the basic klalim of psak well explain in shulchan aruch.Hakatan reminds me of a blind and deaf broken record.
.If you lived in Germany in the 1930s, would you vote in the Nazi party elections, since the Nazis are the party in power and the Nazi primaries determine the German government leadership?
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