- This topic has 39 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
If you lived in the US in 1941, what would you do if drafted by. Army?
Raise my cholesterol level too high, to get a medical exemption.
I would drop out and apply to Notre Dame.
Raise my cholesterol level too high, to get a medical exemption.
1. I don’t think the army tested for cholesterol levels in 1941.
2. You probably had to do a lot worse than that to be exempted during World War II.
The Wolf
What choice would you have?
Go to Canada.
If there were special privileges for Jews and we would be allowed to keep Halacha and Torah and mitzvos, then it would make things easier if we had no choice. Of course, none of us actually want to go to the army, unless we are forced to do so. Maybe I would move to Israel (if the Tal Law is reinstated).
Avhaben, Rav Hutner sent future Lt. Berenbaum to the army.
Id go to the army to defend my country and save the Jews being persecuted in Germany
Lt. Berenbaum was drafted and had no choice but to join.
Lt. Berenbaum was drafted and had no choice but to join.
Well, isn’t that the premise of the question at hand?
The Wolf
Avhaben, we are talking about a draft situation!
Evading the draft isn’t easy. You can’t blame someone for not trying.
1. The United States always exempted yeshiva students. Respect for religion is ingrained in American culture. Even our current president has to pretend to be religious. It’s one the “exceptional” things that distinguishes us from Europeans or Israelis.
2. If someone was “yeshivish” frum, but not in yeshiva, the army would decide they were not suitable for the military. If he insisted on serving, they’ld find a “jobnik” (Israeli term) position for him. If you were willing to improvise and rely on heterim given for Jews serving in armies that executed people for refusing orders on religious grounds, it would be possible to serve in the military – a big factor is that America has never been as anti-religious as secular Israel.
3. The person who said “1941” doesn’t realize that while there was a limited draft in 1941, the US didn’t start serious conscription until 1942 (and in all fairness, probably could have relied on volunteers).
4. The person who said Canada didn’t read the “1941” – Canada entered the war in 1939, and had a policy of not sending conscripts overseas.
Rav Hutner told him not to evade!
Lt. Berenbaum was drafted and had no choice
I think they called him Mike.
Because evading was impossible for him.
Avhaben, baloney stories. Look in his book.
Akuperma, baloney. They would have drafted them.
1941 European jewry was in the grips of a nightmare of a grotesque hellish nature, and here we have in 2012 seemingly religious men talking of evading the draft as their fellow jews were butchered!!! Wow now we see the nature of those deemed too frum to serve, if they would not fight Nazi Germany why would they fight Hamas and Hizbollah?
Those jews who lived in the USA were blessed indeed during the 1940s, saved from the shoah, at least could their descendants could show some kavod and not mockingly discuss evading the draft.
David Hamelech could write the most beautiful tehillim and when necessary he could fight for his people too.
We’ve had this conversation before, but its worth having again.
If drafted to fight in a war against a threat to our safety (or those of other yidden) I would serve. And I think most of us would, in the capacity they could.
But if the war was one of conquest? I’d dodge it.
I’m sure we are all aware how eagerly our Zeidas ran to enlist in the Russian Army as soon as they received a draft notice from His Majesty the Czar, the great and magnificent leader of the Russian people. It was with such utter joy that Yidden would become proud Russian soldiers.
Surely no Jew dodged the draft. Why, that would be most unpatriotic and against dina d’malchusa.
Of course we must not forget our brethren who proudly served the Kaiser in the Great War. When the Nazis took power in Germany, these fine Yidden would proudly display their Iron Cross earned for great valor and service to the motherland. The arriving SS Officer, undoubtedly, would sob and reminisce with the German Jewish war hero and give him a friendly pat on the back before moving on.
If you were drafted in 1942 you could have easily been shipped to the Pacific Theater and fight the Japanese as the European Theater to fight the Nazis.
The number of “Hareidi” (or “yeshivish”) type people in the United States in 1942 was probably negligible, and almost all of them were unlikely to be drafted since they were in yeshivah (they had seminary deferments), had clergy exemptions (since in Christian tradition, clergy weren’t allowed to bear arms) or had a family (they tried to avoid drafting fathers). The world in which you find large communities of people who are strictly Shomer Shabbos, strictly kosher even outside the home, and who go around “looking frum” (or even wearing a yarmulke in public, not to mention a beard and pe’os)- was a world that resulted from the arrived of the Holocaust survivors after the war. In 1942, most Shomer Shabbos Americans were public school graduates who wore yarmulkes at home (or only in shul), and has no problem relying on checking ingredient lists rather than demanding a hecksher. Barukh Ha-Shem, that the fanatics of 1942 would now be considered “modern orthodox” at best- America has come a long way in 70 years.
Throughout history Jews have always fought for their countries. I heard from a history teacher of mine that during the Byzantine/Persian wars (in the days of the amoraim) they did not do battle on Saturday or Sunday; on Sunday because of the Christian soldiers and on Saturday because of the Jewish ones, who were on both sides. Also, I believe there are quite a few responsa about the very complex problem of what to do as a soldier on the battlefield being perfectly aware that your enemy might be a fellow Jew. It was not uncommon.
Personally I think if I was drafted I would choose to serve my country.
You still must register for the Draft (Selective Service)
I think they can throw you in Jail if you dont register
tahini-VERY WELL SAID
I would go and kill nazis
“Lt. Berenbaum was drafted and had no choice
I think they called him Mike.”
Wrong book.
derszoger: Yes, many Jews fought on both sides in WWI and were proud of it. The Nazi government and the Kaiser’s government were not the same thing. (An awesome novel about it is From The Four Winds by Haim Sabato.)
I would not have been drafted, but considering that my great-grandfather was shot to death by the Nazis in 1939, if I had heard of it in 1941 (or 42 or whatever) I would have been on the next boat out to fight.
Derszoger, enough already! There is a difference between the Russian czar and other matzovim.
yitay: Not willingly. They were drafted against their choice. And the responsa has very unkind words for volunteer mercenaries.
Btw, I make note of your hesitation (“I think”) in stating whether you’d serve if drafted. This is despite that if drafted you legally have no choice. I don’t fault you for hesitating.
Derszoger: “Of course we must not forget our brethren who proudly served the Kaiser in the Great War. When the Nazis took power in Germany, these fine Yidden would proudly display their Iron Cross earned for great valor and service to the motherland. The arriving SS Officer, undoubtedly, would sob and reminisce with the German Jewish war hero and give him a friendly pat on the back before moving on.”
A very good friend of mine has a great-grandfather who died fighting for the Germans in WW1 and the family received the Iron Cross. When his son (my friends grandfather) was sent to Buchenwald his mother (the widow) presented the Iron Cross to the SS and he was released.
Avhaben would you tell the US government to go jump in the lake, the way the Israeli Chareidim do it to the Israeli government?
mikehall12382
thanks
For the US, UK or other Western military of whatever country I find myself living in, I would do it, absolutely, without a doubt. For that matter, all Western (NATO) forces are equal – it doesn’t make any difference whether one would serve in the French, Spanish, Swedish, Hungarian or Canadian military. Everyone participates in the major events nowadays.
In any case, I doubt such a situation would ever arise again. The only country that is a conceivable threat to world safety is China. Iran is an annoyance, but not more than that. China is a different story; however, at the same time, the Chinese military lacks any serious long-distance operating capability. They don’t even have enough amphibious ships and transport aircraft to invade *Taiwan*. They could, however, be a risk to regional (though not global) stability still, especially with their ongoing provocations in the South China Sea where a clash with the Philippines is just waiting to happen.
Even though China has a giant army in terms of manpower, and some decent (though not good) equipment for some units, most of their military is 20-30 years behind the Western world at best. The only country they could conceivable threaten are the countries adjacent to them, including first and foremost Russia.
Almost forgot North Korea: another minor annoyance, but again, not a major danger.
What other country in the world would suddenly begin a war? The Arab world? Highly unlikely given their internal struggles. Russia? Pretty much out of the question. India? Their economy depends on the West. African countries? Not in their best dreams. European countries? Dream on, 1941 is gone.
It is interesting to see how Germany is once again Europe’s foremost leader, with the largest population, strongest and largest economy, and basically the leader and decision-maker of the EU. It is Germany, for example, that decides the EU’s actions regarding Greece. Is this newly re-established position of leadership a danger? In my opinion, it is not. Germany nowadays is not Germany 70 years ago. It is a normal country like any other, with the same sort of political parties found in all other countries. It has Neo-Nazi groups, sure, but so do – famously – Greece, the US, and to some extent even Israel, not to mention the UK.
Now, to conclude, it should be obvious for all to understand that any country can nowadays be brought to its knees by means of economic sanctions if only they are sufficiently strong. No country could survive a complete embargo on all trade, and being cut off from the world financially. Solely the threat of blocking any and all export from China would likely be sufficient to stop it from any sort of agressive war; millions of Chinese would immediately lose their jobs and their entire economy would collapse, leading, likely, to a massive uprising against their government.
So, really, this question is solely theoretical. It is rather unlikely to ever become practically relevant.
Now, I think I have just proven that I am bored…..
lesschumras:
I totally appreciate the mesiras nefesh of those who managed to stay frum in America in the pre-WWII period. But there weren’t all that many of them. For a typical pre-war frum Baal ha-Bayis, the army was possible following the same level of heterim they relied on to survive in pre-war America. The handful of yeshivish type people were in yeshivos and were exempt – but they too were only a handful. The pre-war frum generation built a foundation, that the Holocaust survivors were able to build upon (with no small contribution from the huge number of Baalei Tsuva in the late 20th century).
Sure I’d be a navy seal.
Draftees do not get to pick which service they are assigned to.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.