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Now that you are working for parnassa do you feel satisfied with the amount of knowledge you have in learning?
Would you have spent more time learning mesechtos & halacha?
As I enter working life I realize how little I know after all the time I spent in yeshiva & kollel. I learned how to learn but never actually became proficient in most of shas or tanach.
Lomdus is great but it’s not enough.
If your still in yeshiva or killed at least use some of the time to acquire mesechtos cover to cover. You’ll be very glad when the time comes to leave the beis medrash.Read a small booklet from Rabbi Shimon Furst called תנו כבוד לתורה complaining about the current learning methods in yeshivas see – http://www.hebrewbooks.org/22633
It is paskened in Horiyus סיני ועוקר הרים סיני עדיף it is more important to learn בקיות bekiyus than למדות lamdus.
@laskern
In which daf/amud in Horayos is that paskened?Order the book One Minute Masmid by Jonathan Rietti. He often Quotes תנו כבוד לתורה
He is refering to Daf Yud Dalad amud aleph. However, he is incorrect. If you look there, E”Y paskened for a Rosh Yeshiva that sinai is better. But the gemera ends with an argument about which is better (for non-R”Y) .
I feel that people here have forgotten that Torah comes via mesorah.
Its only with a Rebbi one will ever truly be able to konah an understanding of how to learn gemara.
The way I see it is that in Yeshiva/Kolel once has the ability to acquire the mesorah of how to learn.
He has the rest of his life to explore the depth of Torah.
Lets face it, how many people once they step into the working world are stiill learning iyun – they all tend to shift to daf yomi. So at least this way they’ve acquired the skills and mesorah how to learn gemara properly.Please respond accoringly
Truth seeking, you don’t need that many years to learn how to learn. You need to acquire the yadios. Going to a daf yomi shiur is not a proper to acquire them.
TAS, having no yadios is not an option. That opinion in the Gemora meant to endorse am aratzus.He is refering to Daf Yud Dalad amud aleph. …
Thanks, TAS.
My understanding of that Gemara (Horayos 14a) is that the dispute concerns:
(a) Someone who knows and understands all the Mishnayos and Baraisos, and has reasonably good deductive abilities; and
(b) Someone who doesn’t know all the Mishnayos and Baraisos, but who has exceptional deductive abilities.The concept of “learning how to learn” does not really work. If the only real learning means spending 6-8 hours a day for a month to learn one amud of gemarah is real learning then what happens for the rest of your life? There is very little justification for that especially since gedolim all around have decried such learning as not accomplishing. It is indeed a terrible thing if guys walk out of kollel after many years and don’t know more than the first few blatt in six meschtos but claim to “know how to learn”. How can you claim to know how to learn if you didn’t do it?
Sorry, I need to correct the typos. I meant to write that the opinion in the Gemora preferring amkus didn’t mean to endorse am aratzus and having no yadios.
Also I meant to write that going to a daf yomi shiur is not a proper way to acquire yadios.That’s funny. So many people I know who spent years learning and know all sorts of nitnoid details of arcane things don’t seem to actually know the basics. Whether in an hashkafa discussion or even understanding trends of Amoraic thought, they prattle on about things that make no sense and never stop to see the forest for the trees. Sad. Perhaps you need mesorah/shimush with someone competent as well as the capacity to understand and assimilate the knowledge.
I guess it’s better, all things said and done, for rov ahm who really aren’t that good to be peer pressured into unproductive learning time than what their ‘others’ do in a college environment.
But we really should strive for much more.
I went to a yeshiva that focused on teaching talmidim “how to learn,” but it seems most people who go into the working world don’t have the time or the peace of mind to actually learn to that depth after leaving yeshiva. It does shift to a bekiyus type of learning. It’s not a bad thing that you focus on depth in yeshiva, because you still use those critical thinking skills once you leave, you just don’t dwell on the pilpul for so long. I don’t think any yeshiva advocates talmidim should limit themselves to the handful of “yeshivishe masechtas” and neglect tanach and the rest of Shas.
And CT Rebbe, do u really think that all those who are learning iyun and amkus and really touching the depths of a sugya are “not learnin” and wasting their time?
Noone is saying one should learn iyun all day in yeshiva, as one who is able to do that is probably just rifling through rishonim and not truly delving in thought into the sugya with ameilus.
But is it absurd to think that when one is in a place where he maybe exosed to some kind of real mesoros hatorah he should concentrate on just picking up yedios, which one has their whole life for?
I assume not everyone just turns their back on Torah when they leave yeshiva, and are just delving into parnassa to be able to live and continue with the ikur namely avoodas hashem.
I could be wrong…….There are things that I wish were different in the Yeshivos I learned in but the stress on Lomdus is not one of them.
When I go online and see how bungled Torah topics are by those who don’t know how to learn I really appreciate the focus on Lomdus and knowing how to learn. The focus on Lomdus also teaches people not to understand Torah superficially. Those who don’t understand that seem frequently misled about Torah concepts online. Etc.etc.etc.
I havnt leant as much bkiyus, but theres a certain connection to the learning i got from learning iyun style. There was life there, it went through my body. And the enjoyment after working for hours and finally breaking through was amazing. I believe even if later in life i won’t have the chance often to accomplish that, a bond was forged in my heart.
Didnt do so well for my self esteem tho, not covering so much ground. Also, many guys dont have the ability to cover ground on a less deep level and still retain an enjoyment in it. When trying to keep guys invlved in learning this may be a reason to learn iyun style.
Beis Hilel was sinai, Beis Shamai, Aker Harim, Rava sinai, Abaye, aker harim.
iyun is ikar. period.
yedios of shas is needed in order to be a proper lamdan…
vihamaven yavin
See the Sefer Archos Tzadikim Shaar Hatorah.
My yeshiva there were two sedorim, morning and afternoon. The morning was iyun and the afternoon bekiyos.
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