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Sam, what do you mean by nidui? And how can a third-party that was never part of the case in beis din or the seruv open him/herself to nidui without a beis din first declaring the third-party (ie parents) to be in contempt of beis din for violating the seruv? They were never part of the original case or seruv and anyone can’t just decide on their own that they violated the seruv and thus publicly embarass them. Hence there was no justification at all for the protesters to embarass the parents and grandparents and other family members, as none of them were formally found by beis din of nidui. It was illegitimately decided by the protesters on their own to be mvayish them b’rabim .
Doswin: That’s not true. If we’re talking about the same case (I assume we are, how many high-profile cases like this currently exist?) they had the backing of a very strong Posek for protesting the relatives.
Doswin you see the problem is not matter what facts you present about how wrong something may be people like Sam have the same answer “but a big posek said it was ok”. Sam if a posek told you to spit on a girl would you do that as well?
Sam: How can a a rabbi allow publicly embarassing relatives who *beis din* never declared in violation of any seruv?
If someone is supporting him – financially and emotionally (i.e. – persuading him not to give the get) – they they are part of the problem as were the people they were protesting against.
Great_Idea: If a Posek (an actual big Posek, not some random person, Rabbi or not, who I want to be a Posek) told me that in a certain situation to spit on a girl, and no other Posek disagreed, and I didn’t have a Ra’aya B’rurah from Shas and Poskim that he was wrong, of course I would. It is not up to me to determine what the Halacha is in each case. We listen to those who are more knowledgeable than us (i.e. the Poskim). Unless I had a Ra’aya B’rurah that it was wrong or knew that it was an unresolved Machlokes and that he was just Paskening one way, I wouldn’t go against a major Posek on anything, regardless of what he told me. That’s what a Rav Muvhak is.
Doswin: I don’t know. If I were a Rabbi on that level maybe I would. I do plan on looking into this now though.
Sam: Please post what you find out. Because it makes no sense, and is seemingly assur.
I was informed that it’s considered part of the Seruv that anyone who impedes the process or could help force the husband to give a Get but does not is “fair game” for the same protests and coercion as the husband is.
On what halachic basis? To publicly embarrass someone?
You’re still repeating yourself. There’s a seruv against the husband, let’s say in our hypothetical situation. He has been declared by beis din to be in contempt. So action against him is authorized by beis din. Okay. Now you or some rabbi has the right to simply declare other people not party to the case to be impeding the process or even simply unhelpful in forcing him? Simply on the say-so of one person, and not a beis din where the third-party would at least have the right to deny or defend himself from such accusations?
There is no halachic basis ( you haven’t even attempted to justify it halachicly) and is simply an absurd assertion.
I was personally told by someone who asked Rav Schachter who told me verbatim what he said. Rav Schachter said that anyone who encourages and/or assists the M’sarev in continuing his course of action is “fair game” to be coerced the same way he is. Talk to Rav Schachter if you have an issue with this. I’m just quoting him.
Does Rabbi Schachter have a basis in Shulchan Aruch to decide unilaterally without a duly constituted beit din that someone is encouraging or assisting a m’sarev?
I don’t think I (or anyone else) has to defend Rav Schachter. He knows Halachah. If anyone has specific questions I’m sure he wouldn’t turn anyone away who goes to ask him. I don’t know every detail.
1. To withhold a get in such a situation where the children are being held back from the father, is not only mutar, it is advised, its mandatory, how can a father give up his children like that based on false claims?
3. Even after giving a so called peaceful get his wife treats him like a peace of garbage, does whatever she would like, if he would have held off the get for a while he might have taught her a lesson or two, which is what the rabbanim were suggesting.
4. A few tips: Once you see your spouse is under the influence of her parents, friends, and is lying, you cannot depend on the marriage counselors or rabbanim, because she can be directed to take action against you behind your back. (My friend was tricked by her to leave the house for a few days until a proper separation is set up, the rabbanim took resbonsibilty that it will stay status quo!)
6. We must organize a processes where only rabbanim that have the proper experience and guidance can state opinions in a divorce situation, any rav that gets involved without meeting both sides is automatically not relevant.
The woman’s side:
For over three years now, one painful question has been occupying my mind. AM I AN AGUNAH?
I understand an AGUNAH is a women whose husband refuses to give her a get. An AGUNAH is a woman who has fled the evil and manipulative spider spinning her marriage but is still caught in the web. She is a woman struggling to free herself of her marriage and to eventually, start living
AM I AN AGUNAH?
An AGUNAH is the wife of a man beis din has demanded three times to set free. Her husband refuses to obey the jewish court and she is given the honorary title of AGUNAH. She is then assisted by various rabbanim and batei din until eventually, she is free to live her life as she wishes and not as her husband demands.
AM I AN AGUNAH?
The rabbanim I went to for advice while I was still living with my abusive husband refused to help me. I asked numerous rabbanim for assistance and for strength to leave my angry and abusive husband. They refused. I then asked them to help me be able to live with him. They refused. The therapist I was seeing every week, alone-my husband said that since I have a problem of not being able to live with him I should go for counseling- said I must, for my physical and emotional health and for my son’s safety, leave him. I called rabbanim nightly, crying and pleading for help, and was criticized, lied to and betrayed. One rav said that as a neighbbor of my father-in-law, he can’t help me. Another said that my husband needs someone to vent on. I asked if I’m his punching bag and was told that I “have the zechus to be there for him so he doesn’t vent on others”. Another rav misquoted gemorah and wrongly explained to me that I “will be getting a great mitzvah if I stay with my husband”. Another said “he needs a woman so how can you abandon him?” after these rabbanim asked what I was doing to anger him, to make him lose his self control and temper and then physically and verbally abuse me, I realized they would never help me. I would have to leave my house with my infant son, in any weather and any time and stay out for hours, praying that he would be asleep before I returned. With the love of my families, I was eventually able to leave him and try to build a safe and calm environment for my son and myself.
I begged other rabbanim for assistance after I fled and lived in fear and hiding (I still live in fear and the rabbanim gave him my addresss). The rabbis now can not and I feel will not help me. They say calling my husband to beis din to grant me a get will not accomplish anything since he will not obey them. I am told there is nothing I can do but wait patiently and calmly for him to decide that I “deserve” (his words) the get. My husband curses me, threatens me, attempts to intimidate me and use my two year old son as spawn in his selfish and evil threats. He uses the get as another pawn, especially when he demands that I respect him and “take the gamble of getting the get this year or in twenty years!” he even chased me when I walked to my apartment and did so with his hand lifted as if to hit me, reminding me of my disastrous and horrifying marriage to him, an emotionally, verbally and physically (though according to beis din, since he never slapped me on the face I wasn’t physically abused!) abusive person. Beis din wanted to know what I did to him when he chased me and when I was married to him! They won’t allow me to obtain an order of protection or go to secular courts for help and they will not help me because in their words, I am “not an AGUNAH”
AM I NOT AN AGUNAH?!
I always hear of and read about the man’s side but most studies and most real life situations involve those of abusive men who continue to abuse by withholding the get or using it to avoid giving child support and use to blackmail and torture their wives and children.
I wrote this personal journey entry years ago and finally received the get after he came through my son’s bedroom window and was arrested and I ceased following beis din orders. I pressed charges, got an order of protection and showed him and bais din that I will do for my child and for me,whether or not I ever receive my get. It was then, when they had no more power over me, that they ordered him to give the get and me to pay for the get and forgo child support for several years.
Hatzlocha to anyone in similar abusive situations.
bh18, that has to be one of the saddest things I have ever read. I wish you a yeshuah bekororv.
What the last two posts show is that each situation is unique and needs to be investigated to see who is in the right. The problem is there or organizations such as ORA under the leadership of R’ Schachter that don’t seek to find the truth – rather they push through their feminist agenda that a women alsways deserves a Get when she requests one. There are countless women who have a seruv issued against them – why does R’ Schachter and ORA not demonstrate against them? I would like to hear of the case where ORA found the women to be at fault? Does it make sense that the men are wrong 100% of the time?
Great_Idea: I will try and find the exact case, but ORA has demonstrated against a woman before. And ORA is very Medakdek in trying to find out what is really going on before they demonstrate at all.
The bottom line is that if C”V a married woman remarries, without receiving a Get from the 1st husband, who C”V refuses to give her one;
she’s still an Aishes Ish to the 1st husband, and her children with the 2nd husband are C”V Mamzerim.
So she can’t move on with her life, until she receives the Get.
If a married man remarries, without giving a Get to his 1st wife;
his marriage to the 2nd wife is still Kosher, and his children with the 2nd wife are NOT Mamzerim.
So he CAN move on with his life, even without the Get. It just means that now, according to Judaism, he has 2 wives, instead of one.
So R”L it’s the WOMAN Agunah who has more to lose.
Great_Idea: Like I said before, I don’t need to defend Rav Schachter. If you want to say that he is leading people in “committing some of the worst sins possible”, well, then I guess I don’t have anything else I can say.
(I know the case to which you are referring and I have not yet had the guts to ask anyone who was involved at the time how that was Muttar; I do know that they are more Medakdek now, that’s for sure.)
Sam you don’t need to defend ORA and R’ Schachter because there is no defense!! To shame someone in public against the psak of a bais din is beyond comprehension. And for you to say “I have not yet had the guts to ask anyone who was involved at the time how that was Muttar” and to still defend them is just as unbelievable!! This issue is not about yes bugs or no bugs, this is peoples lives? Are you capable of understanding the gravity of the situation?
Great_Idea: Are you saying that Rav Schachter’s not?
Sam: I’m not sure what you don’t understand. Less then an hour ago you wrote “I know the case to which you are referring and I have not yet had the guts to ask anyone who was involved at the time how that was Muttar”.
R’ Schachter has an organization that tries to shame men into giving Gitten, and by your own admission, against halacha. Which part are you having trouble with??
Great_Idea: I never said against Halachah. Rav Schachter is infinitely better than both you and I combined at determining Halachah. If he said it was okay (I don’t know if he did), then it is. Just because you or I have trouble with something does not mean that Rav Schachter did not understand it more perfectly than both of us; and if he said it was okay, it’s okay.
Sam: There is a guy in Beit Shemesh who spit on a little girl because his rabbi said it was ok. If you want to be in the company with kooks like that then good for you.
Why don’t you get some guts and go find out for the rest of us what infinite wisdom R’ Schachter used in paskining against a bais din. We are all waiting your response.
Great_Idea: There is a tremendous difference between R’ Schachter and whatever nutcase said to spit on girls. Everyone knows that Rav Schachter is entitled to his opinion and that his opinion is always Halachically valid, if not always accepted. Just because some “Rabbi”s want to distort or violate Halachah and Mesorah does not mean that all Rabbis should be ignored. Rav Schachter is widely recognized as a tremendous Gadol and Posek and as such anyone who listens to his P’sak definitely has what to rely upon.
PBA: What does eating Treif have to do with whether or not a child is C”V a Mamzer?
A woman who C”V is an Agunah CANNOT move on with her life. If C”V the woman wants a Get, and the husband refuses to give a Get, she is Chained and considered Married, until he gives a Get (no matter how long it takes, even if C”V for YEARS), or until he dies.
If she has no children, she cannot remarry and have children with a 2nd husband, until she is freed from the 1st husband.
No one is JUSTIFYING that a man should deliberately remarry, until he divorces his 1st wife. But if he does remarry and has children with a 2nd wife, and he has not divorced the 1st wife,
he and the children by the 2nd wife do NOT have the same Halachic problems, as a WOMAN who would do the same thing with a 2nd husband, without C”V being divorced from the 1st husband.
In the woman’s case, C”V the children by the 2nd husband are considered Mamzerim by Halacha, and the woman is still considered married to the 1st husband, so C”V she is considered an Adulterer.
So exactly what is ridiculous?
PBA: There is a tremendous difference between a man remarrying and violating a Cherem of Rabbeinu Gershom (not even an Issur D’Rabannan) and a woman remarrying and being Chayav Misah. You have to realize that. A Frum person could easily choose violating a Cherem over a lifetime of loneliness. We probably wouldn’t even consider him any less Frum for that. But there is no way any woman with even a tiny bit of Yiras Shamayim would violate an Issur Misah, regardless of what the consequences of staying alone are.
Besides, he has the option of trying to give her the Get B’al Korchah. She has no other way to force him.
He could do teshuva after giving her a get bal korcha (or after remarrying against the cheirem or getting a questionable heter meah). Especially if he didn’t plan out to teshuva in advance. And like Sam2 said, he didn’t even violate a d’rabbanan in the first place (just a cheirem).
And non-Ashkenazic men don’t even have the cheirem altogether.
PBA: You’re assuming that any Frum person would treat every Issur, whether it be Minhag or a Chiyuv Missah, equally. I think that’s idealistic and just plain not true. Violating a Cherem won’t make someone a Rasha and won’t impede on his Ne’emanus. He would still be Kasher L’edus. A woman and her new husband would Be Chiyuvei Misah for each of them each time they’re together. The difference is clear.
PBA: It’s a Tosafos in Yevamos, Pashtus a Machlokes between 2 Gemras, there is a Machlokes Rishonim, and much discussion in the Achronim whether or not homosexuality is an Issur Ervah or a separate Issur.
And no, I disagree with you. There are different levels of violations of Halachah for a reason. It is much, much worse for a woman to be stuck in a marriage. That is something no one who cares even a tiny bit about Halachah will violate. A man can still care deeply about Halachah and say, “I can’t live life alone, I’ll violate a Cherem so I can keep all 613 Mitzvos.” Also, if she’s really refusing a Get then he can usually get a valid Heter Me’ah Rabannim. She has no such recourse.
I am NOT saying that either a man OR a woman should violate Jewish law.
But in this case, the effect – the end result – of breaking Jewish law is different for a man than it is for a woman.
OF COURSE, if a man wants to divorce his 1st wife, and she won’t accept a Get, and if he doesn’t get a Kosher Heter Meah Rabbanim, then he’s not allowed to remarry.
But if C”V he ignores Cherem D’Rabbenu Gershom, and he remarries anyway,
Hashem does NOT punish him as an Adulterer, and his 2nd marriage is still Kosher, and his children from the 2nd marriage are still Kosher.
If C”V a married woman is intimate with a 2nd man, Hashem punishes the 2nd man for being intimate with a married woman, and He punishes the married woman as an Adulterer. If the woman C”V has children from the 2nd man, Jewish law considers them to be Mamzerim.
The issue is NOT regarding who is more acceptable by society, in their violations.
The issue is regarding who is transgressing Torah law and who will be punished for doing so by Hashem.
It’s a good point. This discussion is mostly relevant only to a segment of klal yisroel rather than to everyone. If someone is not Ashkenazic and his wife refuses to accept a get, he doesn’t need a Heter Meah Rabbonim to be able to remarry. Only an Ashkenazic guy would need the heter.
Hi PBA.
Your thread touches on a good point on an overlooked factor in these situations.
The laws, and for good reason, favor the mother in regards to custody of the children.
But what about the cases where the husband/father is the one who is correct and is the better parent, and who did nothing wrong?
The man knows divorce would mean about a 90% reduction in being in the lives of his children, and for many men, even if they are the “bad”ones, that is a devastating thought and can be an eventual reality that many men do not ever get over.
Someone has to develop a fool proof plan to repair the bond between two people who once looked to seeing each other with great excitement, but now are ripping each others lives apart.
Maybe, there is a way for spouses to check in with someone to report how they feel theirr marriages are going before they sink to the point of no return.
Very sad!
@Sam:
The woman who remarries without a Get would not be ???? ????? because of that ?????; it needs to be ??? ????. She would, however, be ???? on account of her being a woman, unless she managed to overcome that issue (in which case the husband is certainly not at fault for withholding the ??).
@PBA:
There actually <is> a list of states, all below the Mason-Dixon line, from which all children are presumed to be ???????.
If he is Sephardic, he has no problem remarrying even without a HMR.
PBA: I’ll repeat myself once: That’s idealistic but in reality just not true. Halachah has different degrees for a reason.
@Sam:
But in reality, since a frum man will presumably not go against Halacha, he is just as tied down as a woman is.
To use a completely irrelevant example, if someone wants to go to an NFL playoff game but can’t because it’s Shabbos, he is no more prevented from doing so than one who can’t go to a game in Week 5 because it’s Sukkos – even though one is a ???? ???? and one is “only” a ???, someone who follows Halacha will not do either, and is thus at just as much of a “disadvantage”.
Sam: We don’t believe in papal infallacy – thats the other religion.
PBA: What determines if a HMR is “shady”? Either it is halachicly valid or it is not. Specifically what did the cheirum specify that a HMR needs more than to be signed by 100 rabbonim?
Gregaaron, a violator of the issurei arayos is a rashe de’chamas.
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