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Why would it be difficult to obtain a Heter Meah Rabbonim? It doesnt say anywhere it has to be big rabbonim. You can get a 100 kollel guys with smicha. Nothing would make it halachicly any less valid as a result. (And it is only needed as a result of a cheirim/takana/minhag that even not all sectors of klal yisroel was mekabel in the first place that would necessitate the Heter altogether.) Why would you think otherwise?
Getting a true heter meah rabbanim is not so glatt, nor is it typically halachically done except in the rarest of instances (though I am sure there are somewhat shady deals that occur in rare cases, too). A woman must accept a Get as well as be given one. If she refuses, it creates a problem for the man in getting the divorce. But on the whole, there are significantly more agunos than agunim.
All issues, be it financial or child custody can be negotiated or litigated in a beis din. The mediated agreement or psak of beis din then needs to be approved and accepted by the secular courts for the civil divorce.
However, if a man cares about halacha, he will not rely on a shady one, and getting a real one is about impossible
I was going to say some Avak Loshon Hara. I will not do so.
Poppa, in the scenario presented, does it sound to you like this man cares about Halacha????????
If I’m not mistaken a Heter Meah Rabbonim is if the woman is UNABLE to accept a get due to a physical or mental incapacity.
Chavalman- I hope you would trust all of your important shailos to 100 kollel guys with smicha. Having smicha hardly makes one qualified to pasken on this or many other issues. Would you marry a woman who was divorced through a Heter Meah Rabbonim from 100 of your kollel guy friends with smicha, considering that your children from this marriage could be considered mamzerim?
Woman divorced through a Heter Meah Rabbonim?? Wuzzat?
If I’m not mistaken a Heter Meah Rabbonim is if the woman is UNABLE to accept a get due to a physical or mental incapacity.
Not really.
As far as your second point, HMR does not Mattir the wife.
A Heter Meah Rabbonim only dissolves the marriage for the husband but not the wife? If the marriage is dissolved shouldn’t it be for both?
I understand that a woman can not seek a divorce via a heter meah rabbonim, but if the husband was granted one shouldn’t it patur the wife as well?
Would you marry a woman who was divorced through a Heter Meah Rabbonim from 100 of your kollel guy friends with smicha, considering that your children from this marriage “
Ain’t no such animal, as far as I know. Women cannot get such a heter. Only a man can, and as was pointed out, typically if the wife is physically and/or mentally unable to accept a GET.In that case, if the wife recovers, SHE still needs a Get from him, I believe, even if he has remarried, because his heter is to take another wife, not to be considered as divorced from the former one. A woman therefore, is truly bound until freed either through divorce or death (preferably HIS).
I remember a close friend of mine who was an Agunah for over ten years. Her rabbonim finally made it known to the husband that on such and such a date they were going to convene the entire Kehillah to say Tehillim and daven for the wife to be kosher to marry a Kohein (, i.e., that he should drop dead). She had her Get within a week’s time.
A Heter Meah Rabbanim is not a divorce. It does not dissolve the marriage. It is part of the Cheirem of Rabbeinu Gershom against marrying a second wife. You need a HMR to marry a second wife.
And Oomis: A woman does not have to accept the Get. It can be given Ba’al Korchah. She has several ways to avoid him being able to give it to her, but if he gives it to her they’re divorced.
HMR does not dissolve the marriage; all it does is allows the husband to marry a “second wife” (which, ?????????, he was allowed to do in the first place). The marriage is still 100% intact.
Out of curiosity I just spoke to someone who is well versed and involved in these matters.
In general when a HMR is granted to the husband, he (the husband) deposits a get in escrow to beis din. When the woman is able (for example, she wakes up from a coma etc..) the beis din will give her the get.
As with every other complex issue a competent Rov should be consulted.
I believe R’ Moshe ZTL wrote several Teshuvos regarding giving women the ability to remarry after World War 2 when it could not be verified if the husbands survived the camps or not. I think there was a reference to a mechanism allowing remarriage when the husband could not give a GET.
To sam2,
on your second point, you seem to be saying that if a man wishes to violate the cherem by giving an unwanted get, it is possible for him to do so.
might be theoretically possible, but how?
he would need to find someone to be m’sader the get (probably can’t do it himself) and eidim and a sofer all willing to violate the cherem. Might also need shluchim, one or two shtarei harshaah.
and the delivery will not be as simple either, halachically, as you make it sound.
Sam, if a man can give his wife a get against her will, why then would a HMR ever be needed?
Also, how does he force her to accept the get? He just puts it into her mailbox, if she refuses to take it from him?
OOMIS – “..or death (preferably HIS)..”
WOW, you pikin’ sides? (Someone’s bothering you?)
Sam 2. That is news to me (not being sarcastic). I was always taught (apparently erroneously)that a woman can refuse to accept a Get, that she cannot be divorced agaisnt her will, unless there is halachic cause i.e, she committed adultery.
to oomis…
sam2 is trying to distinguish between may not and can not.
he believes that it is only may not.
practically though it really is cannot.
oomis1105- A Get can be given against her will. However, there is a cherem from Rabbeinu Gershom against someone who does.
cantgetit- He can force it by placing the Get in a piece of property that she owns.
Any rov can be one of the 100 rabbonim that sign a HMR?
TO yungerman:
where does he acquire this GET? how does he evidence it has been duly served? how does he avoid problems of dates and places as written in the get?
In practice almost impossible.
the recent demonstration that someone mentioned several posts back is a terrifying example of men being victimized by the “natural” assumption that the woman is always the victim.
i know no details of the case (not even the names of the ppl/families involved), nor which rabbanim are involved and telling ppl to demonstrate on the MIL’s front lawn, but i do KNOW that the husband in this case is acting on daas torah (he’s not in NY state). does his mother deserve ppl with “stop domestic violence” sings on her front lawn? have the rabbanim here in NY who allowed this contacted the husband or the beis din in his city? or does everyone pity the “poor stranded single mother” regardless?
i think its high time that men were treated fairly in abuse and agunah accusations.
Even IF he was wrong, and it sure sounds he wasn’t, they have no right to embarrass his mother or father. They are not responsible. So all the demonstrators are sinners.
essy8~ +1
I mentioned in that other thread, before it was closed, that I know of a young man who not only had undeserved demonstrations at his & his parents’ house, but also @ his elderly grandfather’s house. the grandfather’s health was very affected by this… w/ dire consequences 🙁
as i posted earlier, my cousin went thru the same story…he had full support of the yeshiva and beis din of where he was living, but all the batai din in NY saw, or tried to see, was a nebach single mother…
Rav Schachter always points out that the Ran says that there is an Issur D’Oraisa of divorcing a woman against her will. There is an additional Cherem of Rabbeinu Gershom against doing it. However, if someone does it then it works. The most effective way would probably be to throw it at her and have it land within her 4 Amos (although shoving it in her hand or her pocket would work too-I think pocket works, hand definitely does). And a person can write it himself. We have rules and Chumros by writing Gittin (most of which I’m not familiar with, I’ve never studied Lema’aseh, only the Gemara and what I heard from Rav Schachter’s Shiurim from a few years back, those are still online though). But Mid’oraisa it works if he writes it properly, has Kavanah, and then just has two Frum friends there when he gives it to her.
However, he may as well just remarry without that, since that is just a cheirem, while you note that the Ran holds divorcing against her will is d’oraisoh.
But he probably wouldn’t be able to get a Mesader Kiddushin with the Cheirem in effect.
PBA: Yeah, but in New York you go to jail for polygamy if you don’t give the Get first.
Dash: A Mesader Kiddushin is not M’akev a marriage. And a guy who divorces his wife Ba’al Korchah probably won’t get a reupatable Rav to be Mesader his next marriage anyway.
nitpicker- Stop nitpicking.
Two Witnesses.
Also, I believe the Get does not say where it was given, and the date refers to when it was written, not necessarily given.
Sam, NY state law only considers it polygamy if he is *civilally* married to two people. (If you had been correct, then a woman who got a civil divorce but not a get and civilally remarried without a get would be guilty of polygamy in NY. But she is not.)
to yungerman1.
you arent paying attention.
a get is usually given then and there where and when it is to be given. when that is not the case there are many considerations as to exactly what to write.
without the consent of both parties
no one reputable will write or take part in the get.
my last comment in thread
as to my login in name, I regret having chosen it, but cant change it.
Cantgetit: New York has a state law that you can’t get a civil divorce without a religious one.
Nitpicker: No one says you need reputable people involved to have a Kosher Get. You just need 2 slightly-disreputable friends who aren’t Passul L’edus (yet).
A civil divorce in NY state will stipulate that there is no impediment to either party remarrying. Obviously withholding a GET is an impediment to the woman remarrying.
Sam, I dont know if you are correct about that last point you just made to me, but it is a different issue and irrelevant to your earlier point regarding NY’s (and any States) anti-polygamy laws. My previous point still stands.
argghhh!!!!
(I allowed myself that since it just expresses my frustation,
and isnt really a specific comment.)
nitpicker- “a get is usually given then and there where and when it is to be given” HUH?? If you meant to write a get is usually written etc… I respond that a Get is kosher when sent with a shliach too.
I believe I addressed that last 2 questions you asked.
Regarding the first question, he can write it himself. If he wants the exact loshon he can google it. Its kosher b’dieved either way without many of the details.
What I don’t understand is if a Bais Din requires a man to give a Get and he doesn’t – the community is allowed to pressure him into giving one. Where in halacha does someone have the right to publicly embarrass his relatives – which is akin to murder?
I saw this guy with a hat and beard protesting and I asked him where in Halacha does it state that one can publicly embarrass the family of a man who refuses to give a Get? His answer scared me. “A Gadol said it was allowed”.
Hashem YiRachem
there was a case in E”Y several weeks (months?) ago where a very young chassidish man was married off to a “shawl” girl (those who have started wearing the muslim-like chador).
after the wedding she refused to be toivel without her chador, and moved back to her mother’s house without accepting the get.
the boy remarried within a few months, causing an uproar about polygamy…but she did accept the get. 🙂
Great_Idea: If a legitimate Seruv is issued and the relatives are supporting him Shelo K’din afterwards, it is just as Muttar to pressure them as it would be to pressure him.
Great_Idea:
its unbelievable to anyone who knows even minimal details of the case how rabbanim supported ppl and encouraged them to show up on the MIL’s front lawn to rally. an earlier post (first page, this thread) names a rav who’s apparently chashuv told many to go.
cases like this, as well as all the stuff going on in E”Y scare me– i feel like benai yisrael are like flock without a shephard, so to speak. where are our leaders?!!?
the natural answer that pops into my mind is that we’ve disregarded them so many times, they’ve been so disrespected, and unfortunately recently they’ve been taken advantage of and misled by their middlemen… that we really have no one now to guide us. there’s only so many times even the most loving parent will warn a child before stepping back and letting him learn his lesson.
(just my thought…feel free to disagree, but can this pls not turn into a gadol-bashing thread?)
even if he really is in seruv now, can one keep going to beis din till one gets the seruv he (she) is after??
the origonal din torah from the city they lived in was in favor of the husband not giving the get. as was the second beis din they went to, in the city that the girl was originally from. just because they strung together a third beis din from their rabbinic friends and put a seruv, the original p’sak is not disregarded.
besides, i believe that it is a halacha of bais din that the prosecuting party must file the case in the bais din of the city where the other person (defendant) lives. in a marriage or business partnership, the case must be filed where the marriage or business was.
so it could very well be that he wasn’t halachically required to show up at any bais din outside of where they lived (and where he continues to live). i know such was the case with a family member of mine.
Sam2: Please enlighten everyone where in Shulchan Aurach it states that!
You cannot embarass family members (parents, etc.) even if the spouse is doing something wrong. Certainly not without the parent or other family member being taken first to beis din and having an opportunity to deny, and the beis din ruling. This has never happened in any of the cases where these reshoyim protest and embarass family members not party to any beis din case or seruv.
Great_Idea: I assumed it was a Davar Pashut. If he is in Nidui for violating what Beis Din did and others still support him, then they will be ignoring Beis Din as well. Umm, I’ll look for a specific Makor, I guess. If the case under discussion here is the one I’m thinking of, by the way, from what I know (which is pretty much everything about the case) the man and his family are very much in the wrong here and the Seruv was signed by some very, very prominent Rabbonim who investigated the case fully.
Handwaving and cherry picking the facts cannot alter the central fact that now the bais din where they live, and gedolim are supporting the wife not the husband. Any prominant support which may have ever existed for the husband is now gone. Furthermore, the bais din that issued the seruv is composed of rabbonim, some of whom originally supported the husband, but now support the wife. These facts are easily found via Google.
Great_Idea: I think you misunderstood me, but your response was a little uncalled for regardless. I meant it’s a Davar Pashut that as part of the Nidui that comes with a Seruv is the fact that those who ignore the Nidui also open themselves up to the same Nidui.
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