Would you choose army or kollel?

rabbiofberlin

+1

health- why should the rest of the population be exempt from taxation All I said was that -if you’d stop the money, 90% of avreichim would leave kollel. Check The US- there are plenty of kolellim but the vast majority of chareidim have jobs- thank G-D!

you don’t “obviously” need an army if you have even the slightest of trust in Hashem. You do the mitzvos, avoid the aveyros, constantly work on yourself and learn and there is absolutely no chance that you would actually depend on an army to protect you more than Hashem. The only people who would need an army are those who don’t do what they should be doing.

The Charedim receive more in benefits than they pay in taxes.

I think the poverty rate is 56% for the Charedi population in Israel

ZD: Good point. Perhaps the Israelis would agree to such an agreement as Choppy suggests. I just feel that it will end badly for the Charaidim.

ROB -“health- why should the rest of the population be exempt from taxation All I said was that -if you’d stop the money, 90% of avreichim would leave kollel. Check The US- there are plenty of kolellim but the vast majority of chareidim have jobs- thank G-D!”

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I never posted that.

Perhaps a senior moment?

ROB: I find it very sad to see someone I shared a number of stimulating and respectful debates on various topics in Halacha spewing such hatred and vitriol against the Torah and those who learn it.

I have totally changed my impression of you, and do not feel I could carry on a conversation with you in the future.

Good bye!

ROB: I find it very sad to see someone I shared a number of stimulating and respectful debates on various topics in Halacha spewing such hatred and vitriol against the Torah and those who learn it”

Hello99, perhaps I missed something (I admit I did not read EVERY single post here before replying to yours), but what exactly did ROB say that sounded like he was spewing hatred and vitriol against the Torah and those who learn it? I think he expressed something that many people seem to feel, even if they do not say iot aloud (unless I greatly misunderstood his point, as is quite possible), i.e., that one cannot have it both ways. If the chareidi world (or anyone, for that matter) accepts free funding from the government (whether here or in E”Y), it certainly would seem natural to expect them to give back to that government in some appreciable manner, just as a matter of hakoras hatov. And if the government made their receipt of funding contingent upon giving service of some kind to the country, then perhaps there WOULD be those who would stop accepting the financial help, so as to avoid having to do the service. Quid pro quo.

This is a valid observation, however distasteful it might be. I personally do not want to see chareidim or Kollel men in the army, but to be honest, who exactly do you think DID serve in the Jewish army in the days of Moshe Rabbeinu and our shoftim and neviim? What if THEY would have opted out, citing the desire to learn full time as a get out of the army card? Many people, especially the non-frum Jews in E”Y, feel great resentment of those who have never served. They could not care less that the Yeshivah bochurim unquestionably provide a great spiritual shemira for klal Yisroel. They don’t GET that. All they see is many able-bodied men who do not have to put their physical lives on the line in the same way that is required of THEM. If we are to be intellectually honest, we should be able to understand their frustration, even if we disagree with their objections.

Again, please tell me what did ROB say that so offended you? I clearly missed SOMETHING. I would like to hear what he has to say in response.

oomis 1105- thank you for the good words.

hello99- let me tell you where I come from (you won’t know who I am anyway but you’ll have to trust me on the details)

First of all, I have two sons who are both in kollel and I am very proud of them. I have great hopes for them in the future. So, I have absolutely no axe to grind against people who want to learn and who want to learn for a long time. What I have said consistently -both to all the people who know me and on this website- that to learn in a kollel and to rely upon the Tsibbur- is a unique situation (my sons never took money from the tsibbur)

and should be reserved to a few. What has been happening in our time is that every moshe, jehuda and shlomo wants to learn- regardless of his merits. Now- that is fine with me and with many people but-please- don’t burden the tsibbur with this! there are enough mosdos who need help and our money is precious. If you have private money, you can do what you want with it, but the tsibuur has to be more selective!

By the way, have you ever thought what this approach- to learn indefinitely- has done to shidduchim? there are hundreds- maybe thousands- of good girls who cannot get a shidduch because the boys want to be supported ad infinitum- and the parents cannot go into debt for all their lives!

It has always been the custom in klal yisroel that a select few people learned and were supported by the tsibbur for a limited -mark it, limited- amount of time. (I’ll give examples in a moment) but never, never has this happened that whole cities are living on someone else’s chesbon.

The Gateshead kollel -surely one of the best in the world- always had a very strict admittance policy- not every person was accepted.Even then, the avreichim were supposed to find a job after a few years. I know first hand that in slobodka of the old world, the avreichim were supported for a maximum of five years but then they had to go out and find a job.

This is what is the right way. The best- metzuyonim- should be supported for a limited amount of time and then find a position. This would free the money of the tsibbur for the new arrivals and it would also mean that the avreichim give back to the klal what they received.

Today- though- unfortunately, in Eretz Ysroel especially, it has become the way of life for tens of thousands of avreichim.

“lo zu hi haderech’. It puts tremendous burden on the tsibbur and on the wives. It perpetuates a lifestyle of not giving back to the tsibbur and it keeps idle a tremendous amount of potential in every sphere of life.

Not every person is cut out to be a rov or as rosh yeshiva-some of these avreichim would be fantastic in secular pursuits. I know firsthand tremendous attorneys and accountants who are bnai torah and contribute much more to klal ysroel now than if they were kollel yungeleit. This is how a society thrives- there are people of all kinds and all professions and together they can built a real Torah world.

On to the question of army duty. It is interesting that not one chassidische rebbe has joined all these protests. Their silence is deafening and for a good reason- they understand that not everyone should learn forever and that most of their chassidim must make a living. They are quite prepared to compromise and this was my whole comment on this situation.

Clearly, to me, the present situation is untenable- and has been for a long time. You can see from the discussions that the other side is prepared to compromise too- hence it is totally counter productive to issue wild accusations of “shaas hashmad’ ‘ they want to destroy torah’ etc…nothing is further from the truth. A large part of the chiloni world wants to live in harmony but there are limits to every endeavor. keep in mind the rambam’s “shvil hazohov”.

hope you change your mind about me, hello99.

gavra: As I said, cease all taxation of Chareidim, and we are in business. We have a workable solution. And if the zionists force someone to utilize some service (by making it virtually impractical or impossible to refuse it), you can’t hold it against that they are using it under duration. I have no doubts Chareidim would be better off not giving a penny to the Israeli government (taxes, etc.) and not taking a penny.

berlin: Again with your obscuring. First, you are mixing paying kollel guys with forcing Torah learners into the Army. You are wrong about paying kollel guys, but I won’t even address it here since it is a seperate topic. Paying kollel guys has nothing to do with taking them out of kollel and forcing them into the Army. Even you admit you support them staying in kollel if they don’t take the tzibur’s gelt.

Second, you are additionally wrong about the Chasidishe Gedolim and Rebbes. Among many others, the following are protesting drafting the current attempts to draft the Yeshiva guys:

Belzer Rebbe Shlita, Satmar Rebbe Shlita, Ravaad HaGaon HaRav Moshe Sternbuch Shlita, HaGaon HaRav Shmuel Halevy Wosner Shlita, Chernobyl Rebbe Shlita, Rachmistrivka Rebbe Shlita.

(See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=131299 for one of many stories documenting this.)

And, btw, who paid your two sons income when they were in kollel?

Oomis,

I personally do not want to see chareidim or Kollel men in the army, but to be honest, who exactly do you think DID serve in the Jewish army in the days of Moshe Rabbeinu and our shoftim and neviim?

There’s not much of a comparison – those were accomplished talmidei chachamim, who were not in any spiritual danger from joining the army, and whose primary occupation, even during wartime, was learning (consider the encounter between the malach and Yehoshua).

Contrast that with the present situation, that developing Torah scholars are being threatened with losing the ability to learn and develop, and be put in a spiritually toxic environment.

Many people, especially the non-frum Jews in E”Y, feel great resentment of those who have never served. They could not care less that the Yeshivah bochurim unquestionably provide a great spiritual shemira for klal Yisroel. They don’t GET that. All they see is many able-bodied men who do not have to put their physical lives on the line in the same way that is required of THEM. If we are to be intellectually honest, we should be able to understand their frustration, even if we disagree with their objections.

I think most chareidim do understand their perspective, but don’t give it much appreciation because it’s based on a non-Torah and in many cases anti-Torah perspective.

Do they understand our perspective, as you put it, “that the Yeshivah bochurim unquestionably provide a great spiritual shemira for klal Yisroel”?

Maybe some do, but for the most part, the anti chareidi venom which I’ve seen spewed in the media not only doesn’t get this point, but doesn’t even grant the chareidi tzibbur the benefit of assuming that it sincerely believes in the power of shemira which learning Torah provides.

gavra: As I said, cease all taxation of Chareidim, and we are in business. We have a workable solution. And if the zionists force someone to utilize some service (by making it virtually impractical or impossible to refuse it), you can’t hold it against that they are using it under duration. I have no doubts Chareidim would be better off not giving a penny to the Israeli government (taxes, etc.) and not taking a penny.

Practical services (such as police, water, etc) are provided by the government. If you want those services, then you will have to pay taxes (or usage fees). I agree with the “impossible”, but not “impractical”. People say not working on Shabbos or not staeling is “impractical” as well. If need be, those who opt out of the state can get well water & set up their own health care system.

Oomis: I wrote a very long response, but decided to post only a fraction of it:

I apologize if I was too vague in making my point.

My point was that there is no legitimate and practical motive for conscripting Chareidim into the army; they are neither needed nor wanted. Secondly, take it from someone living here over 20 years and in regular contact with secular Israelis; the motive of the politicians and the masses they seek to woo has nothing to do with the noble quest for equality. Instead, political considerations have led them to declare was against us and our lifestyle.

I don’t want to see Charedim be forced into the army or chalilah into combat (for that matter, I don’t like seeing ANY Yid forced to fight, but it is tragically necessary), but I would like to see them give SOME form of service to the country that does its utmost to protect their rights. That is not siding with the enemy by any stretch of the imagination. There has to be a compromise of SOME type here, that will mollify both sides.

I wrote a response to choppy and daas yochid but I see the moderators in their wisdom did not post it, so let me try agasin,

choppy- i do believe that everyone shoudl contribute to tghe welfare of Eretz Ysroel, each according to his/her possibilities. This can include army, national service and even learning Torah. What I said was that it is impossible to have systme where tens of thousands of people rely upon the tsibbur. It carries the seeds of destruction sit- just look at what is happening to the welfare states in Europe and what will happen to the US- regardless of the merits of the people- one must be able to contribute. And I wrote that if you don’t want to serve in the army, so be it- but don’t expect the tsibbur to finance whole cities, this is just untenable.I was not obscring anything.

to daas jochid- From the eearliest days, there were always people in our history who learned but the vast majority worked. From the gemoro- see berochos 35- to the rishonim -see what the Rambam writes about people using Torah to earn a livin- to our acharonim- the chaey adam, the mateh efraim were business people, even the chofezt chaim earned a lving in some way-are you tellign me that all of these people did not give the primacy to the Torah??? preposterous. the klal has many people and everyone is part of a klal,even if they work !

there were always people in our history who learned but the vast majority worked.

Exactly as today. The non-Chareidim are the majority of the Israeli population. Even if EVERY Chareidi was learning full time, most people would still be working. But don’t try to take away ANY Chareidim from learning. Chareidi full time Torah learners are a minority of the overall Jewish population.

see what the Rambam writes about people using Torah to earn a livin-

The Ramah and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah says that nowadays you’re allowed to live off tzedakah to learn Torah.

daas jochid- where do you get the idea that , in the days of the tenach, the warrior’s ‘primary occupation’ was learning?? And I gave you my choice- be free to learn and avoid the army but dispense with the financing.

oomis: first of all, do you really feel that at the present the Chareidi community does not “give SOME form of service to the country”? Besides paying full taxes, have you ever heard of Hatzala, Zaka, Yad Eliezer etc. We actually have a much higher voluteer rate than the general population. The difference is that we chose who will serve and in which way, rather than having it dictated to us by outsiders.

“There has to be a compromise of SOME type here”

We are very open to compromise. The problem is that the other side refuses any form of compromise. They have declared war against the Torah community (including the National Religious); war brokers no compromises. Don’t support them in their war against us!!!

ROB,

I gave you my choice- be free to learn and avoid the army but dispense with the financing.

That choice is not currently available. The chareidi yeshiva bochur/yungerman is, for all intents and purpose, barred from anything else other than full time enrollment in yeshiva because the army is spiritually toxic, and he can’t work without having served.

What you are essentially saying is, “I won’t allow you to earn money, and I won’t support you”. You can’t have it both ways.

You also are in stark disagreement with the gedolei Yisroel who consider the large number of yeshivaleit learning today to be a great z’chus which protects the whole tzibbur, and that learning is certainly worthy of financial support either way.

ROB: eagerly awaiting your return from Ma’ariv and the Levaya

and to choppy- the Remo and the Sahch that you are referring to is in hilchos talmud torah siman 246, se-if 21. As a matter of fact , if yo ulearn the Remlo properly and the shach,yo uwill see that they totally support my ivew on this. It is a long Remo and a long Shach and you’ll need some patience to learn through all of this.

first of all, do you really feel that at the present the Chareidi community does not “give SOME form of service to the country”

What I should have said is some form of service to the country that even those who unfortunately are NOT machshiv Torah learning, will recognize as such. Like it or not, people who put their lives on the line to defend their country, do not generally see the value of a talmid chochom, as we do. Let’s say for example a bunch of guys sat by the river dam every day, sitting against the walls of the dam. They do nothing all day but sit against the walls, day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year. Meanwhile, everyone else is busy BUILDING new walls, in order to fortify the dam. They only see that those other guys are sitting and (to their mind and way of thinking) doing nothing at all. They don’t get that by sitting against the wall, they are actually fortifying the dam, and they resent these guys for letting them build the walls while they “do nothing” but sit.

That’s how the chareidi kollel guys are often viewed. It doesn’t matter to the ones who lay their lives on the line in the army that the yeshiva guys’ learning is spiritually holding back the flood of our enemies. All they can see is a bunch of guys with comfortable seats, doing nothing. If you could for just one tiny second see this through the eyes of someone who is not a dedicated frum yid, maybe you would better understand the frustration of those chilonim, and even some frum Jews, as well, who are themselves prepared to defend E”Y. This is not a glatt issue with a simple answer.

You are correct about Zaka, Hatzalah et al. They are major chassadim and services.

oomis: I’m having a difficut time understanding your point.

“What I should have said is some form of service to the country that even those who unfortunately are NOT machshiv Torah learning, will recognize as such” and “You are correct about Zaka, Hatzalah et al. They are major chassadim and services”

So Chareidim certainly DO many services that even others should be able to recognize.

“Like it or not, people who put their lives on the line to defend their country, do not generally see the value of a talmid chochom, as we do”

You are correct, but so what? Should we change our entire lifestyle to accommodate the 6% of secular Israelis who put their lives on the line, because they are ignorant regarding the value of our contribution? And what about the 94% of secular Israelis who either don’t serve at all or serve in non-combat roles? They don’t put their lives on the line either.

The arguments seem to boil down to this: we’re too high and holy to dirty our hands with those vacuous Tsiyonim, we’re supporting them by learning, we’re doing these traitors a favor by learning (just see what’ll happen if we stop!), “they” don’t need “us,” the ____ (fill in midrash, Rambam, admor, etc.) says we don’t have to serve, and all this entitles “us” to a class exemption from military service. Is this ugly, or what?

one last word to daasyochid:

What i said was that- if you object to serving in the army- then the klal will not support you. You will be free of the army service and will be able to go out to the work force, if wanted.

This approach, btw, has been proposed by some Israeli politicians because they believe the present situation is financially destructive and a great amount of potential energy and contribution is now being squandered by not having the chareidim in the work force. So- be free of army servyce but you are on your own. Would you accept this?