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Rav Hutner was freed by the Jordianians, but Entebee was freed by the IDF
I realize Rav Hutner was a godol, but the fredom at Entebee was just as important as TWA Flight 741
(I dont think any Gedolim was at Entebee)
BTW many in the Charedi wanted to negotiate for the release of Rav Hutner, but Rav Kaminetsky refused to allow it for the same reason the Meharom M’Rottenberg refused to allow himself to be redeemed
I thank zahavasdad for remembering Entebbe !!! Over one hundred jews were saved by the ISRAELI army. And Rav Hutner zz’l and the people of all three planes-that were indeed destroyed- were taken prisoner and ultimately the Jordanian army freed them- by force, when they launched Black september to destroy the Palestinians. There have been many cases of the ISRAELI army storming planes to free Jews (Barak led on of these raids) and the only reason why it was the Jordanians is because it was in Jordan and the Israelis relied upon the Jordanian army.
Lastly- to choppy- please look at the rambam (hilchos melochim, perek 5, mishne 1)and you will see that today’s army is absolutely busy doing a milchemes mitzvah- You show your ignorance by denying this.
Health- So your saying that since the only jews (two) that you know who are in the US armed forces are charedim…so does that mean only chareidim are in the american army? or do you just know more chareidim then MO? For the record, i know several MO and ex chareidim in the Amercian army.
This seems like a no bashing on zionists and MO for no reason
FYI the IDF might have even had some clandestine help in the freedom of Rav Hutner.
Even though the Jordanians fought the Israelis in the 6 day war, they werent exactly enemies . They both had the same enemy (The Palestinians) and the Israelis helped King Hussein defeat Black September when they tried to overthrow King Hussein shortly after the Dawson Field Hijackings . Its likely Military intellegence at the very minimum was shared in the Dawson Field Hijacking to free Rav Hutner and the other Hostages
there isn’t really an issue…
a jew has to fullfil 613 mitzvos to the best of his ability
one of them is “vehigeisa bo yomam velayl”, studying torah constantly.
if one is able, one must do this.
simcha613 -“And if our nation needs soldiers, and it’s an individual’s choice to choose either the army or the Beis Medrash, where will our nation get soldiers?”
I answered this in the other topic. A volunteer with a paid army is more than enough. You don’t need a draft. See the topic there before posting.
oomis1105 -“The only way to make the army more “pure” is for pure people to join it en masse and lead by example.”
This is a nice idea for Utopia. But the reality is that the Halacha forbids a Frum Jew from joining because they force you to listen to Kol Isha. Even many MO Rabbis said this is Ossur.
Do you know better than them?
“Learning unfortunately did not save the boys who were slaughtered a few years ago in their Yeshivah. Had those bochurim all been trained militarily, perhaps the story would have had a happier outcome. At the very least, they would not have been sitting ducks. There is no dishonor in knowing how (and being prepared) to defend oneself and one’s country. Quite the contrary.”
What? You think the only way to defend yourself is “every Jew with a .22”? There are no other ways to have security? How about a locked door? How about a security camera & s/o has to buzz you in? How about hiring armed security guards? But go ahead Politicize a Tragedy!
far east -“This seems like a no bashing on zionists and MO for no reason”
You didn’t answer my other question. Do you or did you join or belong to the US Armed Forces?
health- your views are well known on this website but you acted like Chava imenu in exaggerating an issur and therefore all your views become suspect and invalid. you state that “ther halacha forbis a frum jew from joining because the force you to listen to kol isha”. the facts are very different.First of all, it is not even certain when kol isha is prohibited but even accepting the most radical interpretation- haven’t you followed the news? no one is forced to listen to kol isha and in the few isolated instances , the soldiers were excused.
You cannot use false facts to support your “shitta”
Incorrect, berlin. There are many many recent stories of the Israeli Army forcing religious Jewish soldiers to listen to kol isha singing.
Choppy how do you explain 1900 Yeats of persecution, pogro?
ther halacha forbis a frum jew from joining because the force you to listen to kol isha”.
The need to protect E”Y is one of pikuach nefesh. Kol isha is not 100% clear in all aspects of the issur, and it certainly does not take precedence over human life.
Army- I could go to university after and support my family. Plus it teaches you discipline and maturity. Yeshiva guys are still babied.
OOmis -“The need to protect E”Y is one of pikuach nefesh. Kol isha is not 100% clear in all aspects of the issur, and it certainly does not take precedence over human life.”
Since it’s now their policy to force them to listen -you can’t join. That is exactly what Yeehoreg V’al Yavor means -you can’t be Oiver the Issur even when it’s Pickuach Nefesh! Ladies signing is an Abizrayhu of Arayos.
Rabbiofberlin – I searched the Jerusalem Post’s site and find approximately 10 articles in the last 8 months having to do with kol isha. There was a big hullabaloo around that time of soldiers wanting to be exempt for a function where there was a woman singing. They were denied and it was ruled that they MUST be present at all functions regardless and they were even denied being able to use ear plugs to avoid the prohibition of kol isha. Now what is the point? Does listening to a woman singing have anything to do with fighting a war? Maybe you want to say that it has to do with following orders? Well, can’t they make an order that says a soldier could use ear plugs if kol isha is against his religious beliefs but he has to come to the function because those are his unit’s orders? It’s a very big religious fight over here.
nechoma- 10 articles in eight months means ONE article A MONTH!!Not exactly on the front burner of our concerns. You also did not say what those articles said. I only remember OoNE instance and that is the one you quoted. So, anfter all htis turbulence and all those accusations of “the army wants to make us secualr”, all you have come up with is ONE instance in ONE year ! Talking of trivial pursuiT!
choppy
“The Gemora in Sotah (21a) tells us that the Torah protects us from pain and affliction”
So next time I have a toothache should I simply learn Torah instead of going to the dentist? Of course not! Both Torah and other activities are required everyday in the life of a Jew. Such a blanket statement makes it sound like one can just go to a Beis Medrash and never worry about food, tuition, or health because the Torah will provide it for you.
optimusprime: I already made clear above, 4 and half days ago on this thread. The chilonim are 100% completely neglecting on Limud Torah to protect Klal Yisroel. So the chilonim can do the Army service and the frum will do the Limud Torah service to protect klal yisroel. A very fair tradeoff for the chilonim, with the frum (with their Limud Torah) doing much more than them.
berlin: Yeah, more than once a month the Army is trying to force frum men to sit and listen to kol isha.
And they wonder why we consider it a shaas shmad. That’s only the tip of the iceberg.
choppy- do you know how many soldiers there are in IDF? Do you realize that what you said- once a month- is an infinitesimal time in the large scheme of an army of hundreds of thousands of people.Even you admit this is but ‘ the tip of the iceberg” . well- to make sure we don’t founder upon this iceberg , how about makings sure that the ones who lead the army respect the chareidim as they enlist in the army? It is scarcely “shaas hashmad’ …
health- No i did not join the American Army. Thank God there are hundreds of thousands of brave men and women who volounteer to serve. However, if there was a draft would i dodge it? Of course not. If its something i have to do, i will do it. IN case your a little uninformed on the relative population sizes of America and Israel theres a huge difference. Percentage wise Israel needs a much higher percentage of soldiers, thus they have a draft.
And now please answer my question. Whats with the MO and tzioni bashing?
actually the gamarah in sanhedrin somewhere in the nuns i think says- chosh birosho or bimocho- yaasoik batorah. quite frankly, the ability of so many people in here to discount the torah as the mekor hachaim and disregard the words of the gedolim who see whats happening in a way the layman clearly cant comprehend is appalling.
The Army managed fine without Chareidim for 65 years. Even the Zionists admit they don’t need the Chareidim. They even say it will be a mess integrating Frum Jews who must be separated from women, have special kosher dietary requirements (more strict than Daati) as well as other religious needs. They say they want it, not because they need Chareidim in their Army, but because it is “only fair.”
Well, it isn’t fair the entire burden of Limud HaTorah falls entirely upon Chareidim’s shoulders. In “fairness”, protecting klal yisroel via Limud HaTorah should also be “shared” by Chilonim. Yet, they won’t do so. So, they are getting the better bargain. We Frum Jews are doing ALL the Limud Torah, while the Chilonim are doing zilch. So we’ll protect the klal with Torah and they’ll do their Army duty.
Their Army’s been managing without us for 65 years, and we’ve been managing without them for 100+ years. We need both? Great: They’ll do the Army service and we’ll do the Torah service.
far east -“IN case your a little uninformed on the relative population sizes of America and Israel theres a huge difference. Percentage wise Israel needs a much higher percentage of soldiers, thus they have a draft.”
Well my point is over and over -they don’t need a draft. They aren’t even offically at war. A volunteer and a paid army is sufficient. Stop with this nonsense of draft. The Freye are just jealous of the Frumme and that’s why they are screaming foul.
They need to get a life; instead of attacking the Charedim at every opportunity. If Ch’vs they manage to force most of the Charedim into the army – ch’vs then a war breaks out – who will protect the Jews in Israel if you don’t have people sitting and learning?
Why don’t you learn the Torah and see what it says about Koach V’ozem Yodi? Thinking “Might is Right” and you must have a big army is exactly the definition of “Koach V’ozem Yodi”!
This debate is nothing to do with religion and simply is politics, with different groups desiring not to ” dilute” their identity or re-examine their attitudes, something we have always previously done!
My sons have served in the Israeli armed forces and have never felt compromised in religious terms, what they have felt, especially the rabbi is a sense of confusion from some within the charedi world, fearful of traditional values being lost or cast aside.
Those values have less to do with Torah and more to do with cultural affiliation and sectarianism. Torah is clear about the need for an army and sets clear halachot. Ask foreign yeshiva bachurim in EY how many times they have sought the help of Israeli armed forces or emergency services as one of their tiyulim has gone wrong. The answer is plenty, as ill experienced sheltered young men have strayed onto dangerous territory or encountered volatile situations. They do not just sit and learn Torah when in danger, they call for help, Hashem gives us free will and the power to learn, fight and work.
Why are people focusing on isolated stories that certain groups exaggerate to promote the status quo. Have any of you been in a life or death situation, understood what pikuach nefesh actually means when dealing with warfare?
The USA like the UK is blessed to have no need for national conscription and has a fine professional army, Israel’s position is very different. It really is grotesque to read of how fighting in the IDF or learning Torah are described as two separate entities, deliberately ignoring and besmirching the thousands of observant men in the armed forces who do both.
ROB – I want to clarify my previous post, which you have twisted to your advantage. There was an incident that occurred on approximately 9/5/11, where four soldiers walked out of an event where women were singing. They refused orders to return. They were subsequently removed from the IDF for failure to follow orders. There was only a little bit of noise in the beginning from this event, but a few months later it suddenly burst into a very “newsworthy” issue, even coming to the attention of Hillary Clinton, who claimed that the refusal of the soldiers to listen to the women sing was “disappointing” and reminded her of the situation in Iran.
There were articles in the Jerusalem Post alone – not to mention any other newspaper written in the western world on the following dates: 9/8/11, 9/27/11, 11/25/11, 12/7/11, 12/9/11, 12/14/11, 12/23/11, 12/27/11, 12/28/11, 1/2/12, 1/5/12, 1/11/12, and finally on 4/24/12. That totals 13 articles over this not quite 8 month period, but 10 of them came in a 7 week period, which is more than 1 article per week. Finally, the rule came out that the soldiers cannot even use ear plugs when being forced to attend such events. So much for the IDF respecting someone’s religious beliefs. What is the problem with a soldier not listening to a woman sing? Is she going to sing his orders? I doubt it. This was purely a morale issue and they went with boosting the morale of the chiloni soldiers and totally trampled on an important principle of the religious soldiers. In my opinion, this was totally unnecessary since it was not an action that was required for proper military service, only something that someone who wants to rob a person of his religious identity.
” How do we know who is learning because he’s supposed to be, or who is just taking the easy way out? Who would choose to go to the army? What incentive exists to fight on the front lines? The Kollel is less risk and more reward!”
If kollel is less risk and more reward and you suspect so many fakers learning in it to take the easy way out, then why are there so many more people in the army than in kollel? Shouldn’t all those in the army that feel there is an easy way out just take it? There are those in the army that have a shitta that it’s a mitzva to defend the land, but what about everyone else? Why are they yelling that people should leave kollel and join the army, why don’t they just join a kollel and take the easy way out themselves? Wouldn’t that make life simpler? Furthermore, why don’t you ask that it’s better to be an arab, they don’t need to fight or learn in kollel?
Though I generally abhor addressing political debates, I feel the degree of propaganda and misinformation some people have swallowed forces me to set the record straight on a number of points:
4) The cost of integrating tens of thousands of unwilling and unmotivated Chareidim, especially if they delay their induction to 23 years old when most are married and building families will be extremely prohibitive. The military constantly complains that lack of funding prevents them from training and equipping themselves properly, if they must allocate millions or billions of shekel to accommodate unwilling and unneeded conscripts they will either bankrupt themselves or require massive infusion of funds. In the current economic reality, this extra cash would inevitably come at the expense of much more important projects.
I [as of yet] will not get involved in one argument. Whether my ??? ???? tells me to learn or fight.
One thing I can tell you: After a year in ?????, if i don’t learn for my ???????, I will for my ??????. …
Toi: That Gemara is in the first Perek of Kiddushin, no? But that aside, I think the Gemara would agree that if someone feels ill but only learns and doesn’t go to a doctor then dies from it that he was Mischayev Benafsho for not seeing a doctor. The point is a doctor alone is not enough. That Gemara does not C”V mean that the only remedy for physical ills is Talmud Torah. Maybe that would be theoretically true if we were all on that Madreiga (I say maybe because even in that case the Rambam certainly wouldn’t say that). But it certainly shouldn’t be taken literally to it’s full conclusion. (Of course, though, if anyone has any trouble-physical or emotional-adding learning is a tremendous way to help overcome that.)
hello99: You are quoting a piece from this week’s American Yated. That piece is inaccurate and even internally inconsistent.
Sorry Itche, I am in EY and have no access to the English Yated. I am not quoting anyone else, simply presenting the accurate facts.
I was speaking to a friend in Shul who is not Charedim and is not real fan of the Charedim.
He was in the Army when he lived in Israel and he did basically same similar stuff to what Hello said
I have heard this many times that the army does NOT want the Charedim, It is no big secret
Choppy and health,
Are you saying that every chaired learns? If you want to treat their efforts the same then the cbaredim should be subject to the same restrictions. If the chilonim can’t go home each evening or take days off whenever they want, neither should the Chareidim.
Heath, Israel is not in a response state of war?
Health, choppy, et al: Why do you pretend that the charedim are “doing more for the state” by learning? They are not learning as a zechus for the state. They are not davening as a zechus for the state. Health, you in particular have called for the murder of all Jews outside your little collection of sects multiple times on this forum.
ALL Limud Torah helps ALL Jews.
tahini -“This debate is nothing to do with religion and simply is politics, with different groups desiring not to ” dilute” their identity or re-examine their attitudes, something we have always previously done!”
Don’t try to twist and distort the facts. It has everything to do with religion.
“My sons have served in the Israeli armed forces and have never felt compromised in religious terms, what they have felt,”
Either they got lucky or they have different religious standards than the rest of us.
“Those values have less to do with Torah and more to do with cultural affiliation and sectarianism.”
Again more distortion.
“Ask foreign yeshiva bachurim in EY how many times they have sought the help of Israeli armed forces or emergency services as one of their tiyulim has gone wrong. The answer is plenty, as ill experienced sheltered young men have strayed onto dangerous territory or encountered volatile situations. They do not just sit and learn Torah when in danger, they call for help, Hashem gives us free will and the power to learn, fight and work.”
So what? You mean gov. services are only for the Chilonim and not for the Charedim?
“Why are people focusing on isolated stories that certain groups exaggerate to promote the status quo.”
Because these are now the rules & regs of the Israeli army!
“Have any of you been in a life or death situation, understood what pikuach nefesh actually means when dealing with warfare?”
What does this have to do with anything?
“The USA like the UK is blessed to have no need for national conscription and has a fine professional army, Israel’s position is very different.”
No, it’s not!
“It really is grotesque to read of how fighting in the IDF or learning Torah are described as two separate entities, deliberately ignoring and besmirching the thousands of observant men in the armed forces who do both.”
Yes, most Gedolim hold it’s two separate entities, in spite of your opinion to the contrary.
lesschumras -“Are you saying that every chaired learns?”
Are you saying every Chiloni is in the army?
“If you want to treat their efforts the same then the cbaredim should be subject to the same restrictions. If the chilonim can’t go home each evening or take days off whenever they want, neither should the Chareidim.”
More distortion of the facts. Army guys don’t go into the barracks at nite to sleep? So the yeshiva guys also go to the dorm to sleep. Army guys are always on the road going home for the weekends and most of them are hitching. Yeshiva guys it depends on the Yeshiva. The ones where Shabbos is part of the Yeshiva, they get off on certain Shabbosim, not everyone.
“Heath, Israel is not in a response state of war?”
It’s not. It might be close, but it’s not. Even if it was, you don’t need a draft. If there is a war, you need more people learning. Numbers in the army is irrevelant, unless you believe in “Koach V’ozem Yodi”!
ItcheSrulik -“Health, choppy, et al: Why do you pretend that the charedim are “doing more for the state” by learning? They are not learning as a zechus for the state. They are not davening as a zechus for the state.”
It’s a Zecus for e/o, no matter why they are doing it. Did you ever hear of the Annay Hakovod?
“Health, you in particular have called for the murder of all Jews outside your little collection of sects multiple times on this forum.”
Stop lying. I never called on the murder of anyone. It’s a shame you’re so ignorant. Did you ever have a Frum Jewish education?
I just repeated what the Torah says. The Torah says Reshayim should be destroyed and it lists what a Rosho is. The Torah also talks about people who believe in “Koach V’ozem Yodi”.
I never said every Freye Yid is a Rosho. Some are Tinuk Shenishbas, but definitely not all.
Health: First of all, if you’re going to make a Passuk into a rallying cry, get it right. Second of all, learn some Tanach. When there was a real state of war, the answer wasn’t to sit everyone down in a Beis Medrash. We davened and then we prepared to fight.
The whole “army and Charadim” is a red herring.
The chilonim don’t want Charadim in the army, but they do want to stop paying for their services, and are afraid that they will take over the country through the vote (and large families). The Charadim don’t want to be in the army, but do want the services and do plan on taking over the country and making it a “Religious state”. Short of that, they want to be left alone, as they are “conscientious objectors” to the state in general.
The simple (and sometimes suggested) solution is to have anyone at 18 either sign up for Army/Sherut, or agree to drop their citizenship voluntarily (which would make them stateless, but would not go against international law, since it is voluntary), They would be allowed to remain in the country legally (similar to what might have happened in an Arab state), but lose the vote and the right to services (such as health care, etc.). It would give the Charaidim everything that they claim that they want, but would never be accepted by them.
Al Shelosha Devarim HaOlam Omed: KESEF MAMMON GELT!!!
As a continuation: The Chilonim don’t really care about Charaidim one way or the other. They are perfectly happy to share the country with those Charaidim & Chardal who work, pay taxes, etc. What really scares them is that the Charadim will take over the country, and Talibanize it. Then the Chilonim will be kicked out, or be forced to leave. Think Spain 1492.
If non-citizens are exempt from taxes, that might be a workable solution. But be aware than anyone, including someone with substantial income, can choose that option. If you are going to tax someone, his family and community is entitled to government services.
If non-citizens are exempt from taxes, that might be a workable solution. But be aware than anyone, including someone with substantial income, can choose that option. If you are going to tax someone, his family and community is entitled to government services.
I don’t believe that to be true. You can have taxes on income earned in the country without providing services or being a resident. See IRS pub. 519.
I have a suggestion: let NOT ONE AVREICH take a penny from the medinah and they will be free from serving. That’s it. Do whatever you want but don’t use my money to do it….let’s see how that will end….
Sam2 -“Health: First of all, if you’re going to make a Passuk into a rallying cry, get it right.”
Can’t come up with anything better to defend the Zionists? You got my drift, whether I’m quoting it exactly or not.
“Second of all, learn some Tanach. When there was a real state of war, the answer wasn’t to sit everyone down in a Beis Medrash. We davened and then we prepared to fight.”
Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said to dismantle the army. I said they don’t need a big one and during a war they need to add more learners, not more fighters. So since it’s my “rallying cry”, you don’t believe in it, correct? You think the bigger the army – the better?
nechomah- i checked the articles you mentioned. What you neglected to say is that the instance of women singing was not some cabaret evening or a kumzits- it was on very specific days- YOm Hashoa, Yom Hazikaron and Yom ha-atzmaut. The army- I would venture- does not want to discriminate against women (you may not like that but this is official policy) and for soldiers to have earplgs would cheapen the occasion. You also did not quote the article which said that the army would allow the soldiers to bring a prayer book -or Tehillim- and read from it during the event.It is not even clear if a woman singing kaddish comes under prohibition of kol isha.so, you are making a mountain from a molehall.
To all who think that Hashem doesn’t directly control wars -I’ll bring some proofs.
I’m not even going to talk about the six-day war.
Let’s talk about more recent conflicts.
How about the First Gulf war? Why did Pres. Bush stop from going into Bahgdad? His decision cost many lives to be lost later on. His General said to proceed to conquer the country and he didn’t listen. (Perhaps) this was Hashem’s decision – so the Pres did something against common sense.
Lebanon war: Israel could have easily taken it over, but instead retreated and abandoned their long time allies -the Xians for no reason. They constantly have problems with that front. Again a country doing something against common sense. Why?
Then Israel did it again when they went into Gaza -they just left. Why? Not a drop of common sense.
If anyone doesn’t see the Yad Hashem in all these instances -it’s because he/she is living with their head in the ground, like the ostriches.
rob:
Sure. And the entire community will be exempt from all taxation as well.
gavra_at_work:
No taxation without representation.
(Heard that one before?)
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