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Chazon Ish on fish worms
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/06/chazon-ish-on-fish-worms_20.html
cherrybim,
If a rav violates halacha himself, it’s not a good idea to use him as your rav. If you recall, I posted sources which referred to the halachos of following a psak based on the shailo itself, and who issued the psak. Of course before I would “discard” (your term) a rav, I would make sure to consult with an odom godol to see if I was doing the right thing.
In the future, I, and it seems many of us in the CR, would appreciate if you would pease keep your comments more civil.
“any of the vast majority of American poskim who hold that the fish is not treif”
You STILL have not listed you vast majority, and STILL insist, without any source, that which country you live in determines whether worms (not fish) are ossur.
BTW, (and this is not a psak, I’m just telling you a fact, since you asked earlier) the Vaad of Flatbush is makpid on the worms.
The Vaad of Queens is not makpid, but you can call and ask about specific establishments.
Rav Vaye in the 8 page letter published on YW quotes John Smith, M. Joie and B. Berland (presumably a scientific research paper) as saying in my translation back to English “The worm hatches from its egg on the floor of the sea and exits the egg at a microscopic size and it is impossible to see without a microscope. The worm when it hatches from its egg and is swallowed by the shrimp is 200-300 microns (.3mm) long and 14 microns wide, by way of illustration if one would cut a mite into 12 pieces would it be possible to see a single piece?
Rav Falk’s main reason to be matir seems to be to be:
???? ?????”? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????. ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?? “??? ????” ?? “??? ????” ?? “??? ????” ????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????. ??? ??? ??”? ? “? ??’ ?”? ??”? “?????? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ??”? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ????, ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????.
In other words, the Rema permits ????? ???? ????? all worms that grow in meat, fish and cheese, since they don’t grow from the ground they are not considered ???? ?? ????. According to this, the Sefardi Poskim should be more ?????.
He uses this as a ????? with two other considerations:
????? ???????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????. ?’ ???? ??? ?”?. [?] ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????, ?’ ???? ??? ?”?.
It’s surprising that no one quotes this ???? from Rav Falk, as this ????? is clearly not new. It is addressed to Rav Tuvia Weiss as a Rav in Antwerp, and he has already been the Gavad of the Eidah HaChareidis in Yerushalaim for a number of years. Actually at the end of the teshuva it is dated ???”? with a current addition.
He also writes:
????? ??? ??’ ?’ ??? ?”? ????? ??’ ?”? ?”? ?’???? ????? ???”? ???? ???? ?????, ???’ ??”? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??????.
hello
The ??”? I’m told, argues strongly on the ??”?’s acceptance of the ????”? even ????? ???? ?????, and many ?????? will be ?????. Besides the fact that whether this is considered a ???? ????? is a separate ????.
Undoubtedly, the ?????? are aware of these ????? and hold differently. The ??? ???? addressed it directly. ????? ??? ???? who makes a beatiful ???? in ??”? that ????? ???????? only applies to ??? and the ????’s ???? is only because it’s the same ???, but here it would be a ?????.
hello,
See ???? ????? who brings ??”? as “????? ???”.
“If a rav violates halacha himself, it’s not a good idea to use him as your rav… I would make sure to consult with an odom godol to see if I was doing the right thing.”
Are you saying that the Rabbonim who are matir, are violating halacha?
EDITED
Daas: I know the Pri Chadash is machmir, Rav Falk addresses that too. However the ??? in halacha is that if something is ???? ????? ???? ????? it means that it is ???? ????? ????. The Rema is certainly enough to rely on for an Ashkenazi, especially combined with all the other factor he mentions.
“many ?????? will be ?????”
it’s fine to be machmir, but it’s not assur then.
“Correct. Because when it’s a ???, it’s not ???? ??? ??????. And when it’s part of the grape, it’s not a ???”
Why? According to your ????? it obtained the status of the host grape when it was living inside the grape and maintains it even when leaving, just like you claim the anisakis becomes a sheretz from the shrimp and remains one when it enters the salmon. What is the difference??? ??? ??? ??? is only relevant if the worm developed in a live animal, and according to the ????”? it would not have the standard 5 issurim of sheretz.
“And it’s not a ????? ???. It is, as I’ve said, ???? ??? in the ????”
I have still seen NO evidence of a blanket rule that a parasite obtains the hosts status ??? ????? ????!!!
“??”? in two places, one if them cheese, on which I don’t know of any ??????”
Off hand, the Shach in ?”? writes that all 6 month old cheese is considered hard and needs 6 hours, even without eating any worms. Additionally the ??? ???? writes that any cheese that is ???? ???? needs 6 hours, again even without worms. Rav Vozner and Rav Eliyashiv both require 6 hours for what we call in EY “yellow cheese”, regular solid cheese used among other things for pizza, even though it is not wormy. Do you need more?
daas: “The primary species is Diacyclops thomasi, a very common type of copepod. It begins life measuring about 90 microns (.09 mm) and grows up to about 0.8 mm (males) and 1.4 mm (females) in about five weeks time.”
From a site you provided. It seems the copepods are much bigger then 30 microns, however the anisakis are swallowed by krill at 1/12 the size of a mite which even Rav Vaye considers not visible.
“Rotifers are common, but they are extremely small (~0.1mm) and are generally considered microscopic”
That’s 100 microns
“In general, the size of copepods starts at ~0.1mm length for the larvae”
them too
hello,
” “many ?????? will be ?????”
it’s fine to be machmir, but it’s not assur then.”
Then let me rephrase; “many ?????? will say ????”.
“Why? According to your ?????”
Again. not a ?????, just ???? ???.
“it obtained the status of the host grape when it was living inside the grape and maintains it even when leaving, just like you claim the anisakis becomes a sheretz from the shrimp and remains one when it enters the salmon. What is the difference???”
Simple. When it is ????, it is a ??? ????? ?? ????. As far as the anisakis, ??”?. If it’s a ????, it’s ???? as a ??? ????. If not, it’s still a crustacean (in ???.)
“??? ??? ??? is only relevant if the worm developed in a live animal, and according to the ????”? it would not have the standard 5 issurim of sheretz.”
Of course not, it’s ????”?. I think I missed your point here.
re: size of copepods: Not really my point. I’m aware of the fact that most of the copepods are at least 100 microns; I was showing you the ????? of ????.
“I have still seen NO evidence of a blanket rule that a parasite obtains the hosts status ??? ????? ????!!!”
Then you haven’t followed my reasoning. I brought you a ????, a ??????, and two ??”?.
I think you totally missed the point about the cheese. You should have brought the biggest ???? from the ?”? himself who says you need six hours after aged cheese! The point is that you ALSO need to wait six hours after wormy cheese! Does anyone disagree with that?
Would Rav Elyashiv and Rav Vosner’s ??? apply to any cheeses available in the USA, other than Swiss and parmesan? (This question has nothing to do with our discussion, I just want to know.)
hello,
I don’t think the term “microscopic” is synonymous with ???? ??????.
HIE,
I’ve heard that quote. I’ve also heard that he said “I wish I could say it’s ????, but R’ Elyashiv said it’s ????.” I’ve also heard that the reason the Vaad of Flatbush is ????? on the worms is because R’ Dovid told R’ Bluth that he cannot be ????. I also heard (this one from a ?”? who had just minutes earlier discussed it with him) that he absolutely accepts the simple ??? in the ???? that worms generate in the fish (not like R’ Belsky or R’ Falk), and that if they were not ???? and then became ???? in the fish, it would have the same ???, and that whether or not this is what happens is the ???? here.
“I’ve also heard”…”I’ve also heard”… “I’ve also heard”…
Good sources.
Daas: The ???? ????? ???’, ??? ???”? you repeatedly refer to are all discussing the same specific case of a worm ???? in a live animal that is ??? ??? ???. This does not create a ?”? ???.You have acknowledged that ?????? there are grounds to say ???? is different, and you have never explained any reason or proof that this rule mentioned specifically by ??? ??? ??? should apply to other halachos as well.
” The point is that you ALSO need to wait six hours after wormy cheese”
You’re making a mistake, the ??”? holds that you ONLY wait 6 hours if you eat the worms.
The ??”? ???? ?”? is based on the words of the Taz that only wormy cheese needs 6 hours. As I have already explained, the ??”? surprisingly understands that even when wormy the cheese itself does not become ???? ??? and one must eat the worms. You understand the ??”? means one ONLY needs to eat worms even without cheese and therefore it must be that the worms become milchig, however it could just as well mean that one must ALSO eat the worms in addition to the cheese and the worms do NOT become milchig. So even according to the ??”? it is not ???? that the worms get the din of their host. Even if he would mean the way you understood, there is no ???? to say such a ????? unless you hold like the Taz that worms are necessary and also understand like the ??”? that it is not enough to eat just the wormy cheese. The Poskim I mentioned, and we can add to the list the ???? ????? ????? ???, all hold that we must wait after cheese even if it is not wormy or even if we don’t eat the worms. According to them there is no ???? to say the ??”?’s ????? at all, whatever it is. So this ??”? is certainly NO proof to a general rule of acquiring the host’s status.
Re ???? ???????: I asked you for sources that 30 or 50 microns is considered ???? ???????, you posted a number of links. None of the links you posted mentioned any such psak, the closest thing I saw there was that the OU approves of a filter rated 50 microns, meaning it catches 85% of particle 50 microns or larger. If that is their standard they apparently are not concerned about copepods even somewhat larger than 50 microns. However a number of the articles mentioned that the size range of the copepods in NY water ranges between 100 and 1400 microns, the smaller ones were described as being certainly NOT ???? ??????? and the large ones were the subject of a ?????? ???????. I don’t see any consensus to consider even 50 microns ???? ???????.
In any event, the anisakis when they hatch are only 14 microns wide, and at a length of 200-300 microns it seems straightforward that they are certainly NOT ???? ??????? and that we certainly DO have a ???? ??????? ?????.
While there very well MAY be even Ashkenazi Poskim who do not pasken like the Rema to permit all worms in ???? ?????? ????, I am not aware of any other then the ???? ?????. The?”? ??”? ???”? agree with the Rema, so it would be difficult to say that one who eats a fish infested with anisakis is ???? ?? ????? ????????. After all ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??”?.
” Simple. When it is ????, it is a ??? ????? ?? ????. As far as the anisakis, ??”?. If it’s a ????, it’s ???? as a ??? ????. If not, it’s still a crustacean (in ???.)”
Huh?
I cannot for the life of me understand how ANYONE can discuss eating worms in cheese. If I see even one, I will toss the whole thing out. I have thrown away 10 lb bags of flour because I saw one flour beetle. Once I have seen it, it eckles me so much, I would literally have to be starving to even consider eating it (once I threw away the bug, of course).
oomis1105, you are eating tiny little critters all the time, you just don’t see them. So it’s only a matter of size that we’re talking about.
And what about gefilta fish or herring, going to stop eating that now?
The only safeguard is to make your own gefilta fish from scratch like we used to do and check the fillets yourself.
I wonder if the mashgichim who check for fish worms will do it the same way that lettuce and other vegetables are checked by the large companies such as Eden or Bodek. Instead of checking each lettuce leaf or floret, like you would do at home, the mashgiach checks a small batch from hundreds of pounds of produce. If the small batch is checked to be bug free after the entire amount is washed, then the entire amount is halachically bug free even though it’s not checked. So is there some kind halachic mechanism for this type of mass fish production or will each of tens of thousands of fillets be checked? And how can you trust this checking on such a massive scale? On the video, it seemed like a tedious job just to check and remove the worms from one cod filet; can you imagine doing it for hundreds or thousands of filets?
hello,
This from the last link which I posted.
Brooklyn’s Tap Water Isn’t Kosher
According to the following email:
Subject: Important Notice 18 lyar 5764
Dear Chaver, It has been ascertained that the city water contains many bugs (Sheratzei Hamayim), and therefore one may not drink the water even though the sinks have strainers [the Water Department is aware of this, but since this does not pose a health hazard they allow it]. In order to drink the water one needs a filter which will pick up anything 30 microns or bigger. Washing dishes, doing laundry and showering are permitted without a filter. More information will be forthcoming bli neder in the coming days. Please pass this information on to others.
Rav Feivel Cohen
It’s possible that he would now agree that a less efficient filter
is okay since most of the bugs are larger, and this was based on initial findings (but I think he was thorough on all of the details before he issued the psak). Either way, I don’t think he changed his mind on the ???? aspect.
If you don’t mind checking the ?”? again, he says either aged 6 months or wormy require 6 hrs. The ??”? is qualifying the case of the wormy cheese (in that case it’s only required if the worms are still there), not arguing on the case of the aged cheese (even if there are no worms in it). Have you found anyone who argues on the case of the wormy cheese?
” Simple. When it is ????, it is a ??? ????? ?? ????. As far as the anisakis, ??”?. If it’s a ????, it’s ???? as a ??? ????. If not, it’s still a crustacean (in ???.)”
Huh?”
I guess not so simple. I’ll try again.
In any case that the worms have the ??? of a ???, they will not have the ??? of ??? or ????”? which is why neither are listed, although I think we both agree that these worms have the ??? of ????”? (although we would disagree about ???).
Do you know if Rav Elyashiv and Rav Vosner would require 6 hours on muenster or mozzerella? Or is the Israeli cheese stronger?
cherrybim,
If I’m not mistaken, I think some companies were already checking for and removing worms from fish. Not for reasons of ????, but because people like oomis would otherwise not buy their fish. A&B always claimed that their fish was worm free. I think Dagim also did.
cherrybim,
I don’t have sources to prove those quotes, but I was addressing a claim which also had no sources.
The only provable source I know of regarding R’ Dovid’s opinion is from R’ Bess, who says R’ Dovid recommends to be ?????.
cherrybim: ever heard the cliches about the pot calling the kettle black and people who live in glass houses. You haven’t exactly been quoting chapter and verse for your claims about the “vast majority of Poskim” either.
daas: Recommending a 30 micron filter dos not mean that that is the ????? of ???? ??????. In fact one of the links you posted maintains that the standard for a 30 micron rated filter would remove 85% of particles over 30 microns and leave in 15% of the bugs. If this is your only source it only proves that Rav Cohen holds the size is much larger than 30 microns. In any event the 14 micron wide anisakis are even smaller then the size you attributed to Rav Cohen.
“In any case that the worms have the ??? of a ???, they will not have the ??? of ???”
I see I underestimated your creative abilities. First you invented a new ??? without need of any source or proof. Now you have invented a unique qualification that the parasite only obtains the host’s status until it achieves its own ????? ???. So now according to your understanding of the ??”? ?”? the worms are only milchig until they leave the cheese completely and become assur, then they become pareve. I’m impressed.
Israeli cheese is not strong at all. Rav Vozner is basing his issur on the 6 month opinion, and he is concerned that the time spent sitting on the supermarket shelf is included in the 6 months. Muenster, mozzarella and cheddar would ?”? need to wait.
daas: “If you don’t mind checking the ?”? again, he says either aged 6 months or wormy require 6 hrs”
I don’t mind at all, it’s been 8 years since I last learned ??? ????. Actually, I was correct. If you read the Taz carefully, he starts quoting the ????? ????? ????? who says that either aged or wormy requires waiting 6 hours. The Taz himself proceeds to explain that aged cheese is an issue of becoming hard and leaving remnants ??? ???????, which the Taz concludes is exclusive to meat and does NOT apply to cheese. He then writes that wormy cheese is ???? ??? ???? which DOES apply to cheese like meat. So the ????? of the Taz is that aged without worms does not require waiting but worms do. On this the ??”? writes that even with wormy cheese one must eat the worms. Most Poskim follow the ?”? ???? ??? that aged alone is sufficient reason to require waiting, but NOONE agrees with the ??”? that with wormy cheese one must eat the worms.
So in conclusion, there is NO proof that ANY Posek (except the ??”? according to you understanding that one need eat only the worms without any actual cheese) considers the worms milchig.
HIE:
I don’t mean to question that R’ Dovid said what you quoted. I just meant that he is not taking a strong stance (at least publicly) either way.
Do you know when R’ Dovid said it; before or after it became clear that the gedolim in EY did osser?
hello,
re: microns. “which will pick up anything 30 microns or bigger”
If you need a 25 micron (or less) rated filter to pick up the bugs, then so be it. 30 is his shiur of N”L.
I know 14 is smaller (I’ve seen 15-20, but either way it’s smaller), but I’ve maintained that since these are longer, they are visible.
“NOONE agrees with the ??”? that with wormy cheese one must eat the worms”
Have you found anyone who disagrees? The aged cheese and wormy cheese are two separate issues, as you said, so arguing on the first does not mean arguing on the ??”?’s ??? on the second.
It’d ridiculous, as Rav Moshe had stated, to reaffirm what had already been established as mutar in the shulchan aruch. So as was mentioned earlier, if a Rav or Posek or kashrus agency does not explicably assir the fish, then ipso facto, they hold the kashrus status to continue.
It’s far easier for you to list the names of all the American Rabbonim who have stated that the fish is assur; all the rest are matir.
hello,
At the end of the ??”?, he quotes the ??”? and seems to agree, or at least to acept it as consistent with his original statement.
“So now according to your understanding of the ??”? ?”? the worms are only milchig until they leave the cheese completely and become assur, then they become pareve. I’m impressed.”
First of all, thank you. Secondly, (I’m working backwards here) they would only be ???? (I wouldn’t use the word “pareve” here) if they were ???? ??.
Anyhow, the ???? in ???? to which you refer is not listing possible ?????, just the definite ones, otherwise ??? ?? ???, ?? ?????, ???”? should have been added.
Daas: “Rav Feivel Cohen was ???? that we should be ????? on 30 microns” I asked you “Is this psak from Rav Feivel written somewhere?” and you posted numerous links, the only one that quoted Rav Cohen was regarding the size of the filters. You still maintain “30 is his shiur of N”L”.
Is this based on the above link or a different source?
“I’ve maintained that since these are longer, they are visible”
But the’re still only a twelfth the size of a mite which is borderline, why do you think they are N”L?
“after they hatch, they uncoil and become longer and thinner, which makes them more visible”
Actually if you think about it a square 100 microns by 100 would be N”L, but a line 10000 microns by 1 micron would certainly not. So long and thin is LESS visible that square.
“Have you found anyone who disagrees?”
Off the cuff, the ???? ??? ????? ????? require 6 hours after wormy cheese because the cheese itself is ???? ??? and don’t require eating the worms.
“Secondly, (I’m working backwards here) they would only be ???? (I wouldn’t use the word “pareve” here) if they were ???? ??.”
But if they were ???? ?? and became assur, would they lose the host’s status of being milchig that they had before they were ????, in your opinion?
“Anyhow, the ???? in ???? to which you refer is not listing possible ?????, just the definite ones, otherwise ??? ?? ???, ?? ?????, ???”? should have been added”
??”? is not an ????? ????, and ?? ????? in this application is only ?????, and ??? ??? ??? is not relevant in any case where the ????? ??? applies according to the ????”?.
cherry: No, anyone who thinks that any local Rabbi can argue on the Gedolei HaPoskim’s near unanimous opinion is “m’vazeh Talmedei Chachomim and G’dolim of our dor”
HIE: “its not a unamimous opinion”
True, that’s why I wrote “Nearly unanimous opinion”.
Also, Rav Bess quotes Reb Dovid Feinstein as saying one may not eat the wormy fish. With all due respect, I trust Rav Bess more then an anonymous 10th grader.
HIE – Baruch Hashem you have a Rav who is an adom gadol and respected in the community. You are very fortunate and as the posters here can readily see it makes a big difference in one’s midos and hadracha.
So just continue to grow in your learning and yirus shamayim.
hello,
Did you see Rav Padwa’s ??????
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=63097
He makes the same ????? that we’re “arguing” about. His ????? is like mine, but he somehow is assuming that most of the worm’s growth is in the ?? ????. I suppose that this is consistent with his rejection of ???? ???????.
Back to ???? ??????. If you look carefully at R’ Feivel’s letter, he is not talking about the size of the filter, but the ????? of ???? ??????. I quote again – “which will pick up anything 30 microns or bigger”. The size of the filter is only relevant regarding its ability to pick up anything which is a problem – something which is 30 microns or larger, and therefore ???? ??????. Although this should be sufficient evidence of his opinion, I knew this before finding this parsha sheet, having heard his opinion from his talmidim at the time the NYC bugs-in-water “crises” erupted.
As far as the length is concerned, of course you are correct that if an object can be so thin as to be sub-visible at any length. It should also be obvious, though, that that size would be somewhat smaller than the size given for sub-visible in three dimensions. I don’t know the precise number, but I think even the thinnest human hair is visible, as well as a fine (or even superfine) merino wool fiber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merino
My summer schedule and location is different than during the year; I don’t know for how much longer I can keep this up. I might still have some time (and web access) to respond, But in case not, I now will now wish everyone in the coffee room a happy and healthy summer, and ask anyone who I may have offended ?????.
Rav Padwa, of course, is ????, I only quote him regarding the specific issue of whether the worm is considered merely a ???? or a part of the crustacean.
HIE: “and btw, its not a “nearly unanimous” opinion either, so i advise you get your sources straight”
OK. Lets go through the names together.
In the US Muttar:Rav Belsky
In the US assur: Rav Bess, Rav Miller, Rav Forscheimer, Rav Reisman, Rav Feinstein, Rav Cohen, Rav Heinemann
In EY muttar: Rav Vaye, Rav Kuber
In EY assur: Rav Elyashiv, Rav Vozner, Rav Korelitz, Rav Karp, Rav Klein, Rav Gestetner, Rav Revach, Rav Gross
Daas: Thank you for posting Rav Padwa’s teshuva. I don’t have time to analyze it point by point, but I was not impressed. He even goes beyond what you said, assuming as a davar pashut that worms are orlah without any source.
“heard his opinion from his talmidim at the time the NYC bugs-in-water “crises” erupted”
OK. if you heard it from a reliable source then I accept that he said it. But I still think it is an extreme chumra, and I would not be machmir more then Rav Vaye.
“I think even the thinnest human hair is visible, as well as a fine (or even superfine) merino wool fiber”
This is an assumption.
Have a good summer, we’ll miss you.
HIE: so set me straight. Rav Bess claims that Rav Feinstein says not to eat the fish, I trust him. Rav Roth was matir 18 years ago as were many other Poskim who today asser. Do you know what Rav Roth holds today? If there are “many more” I would very much like to hear about them. I have been asking for names for weeks now and no one has been able to supply any. If you have been following my conversation with Daas Yochid, my personal opinion is that they should be mutar, but I have not found that the Gedolei HaPoskim agree. If you or someone else can prove otherwise it would be wonderful.
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