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“Number one you are completely ignoring the 1905 Jacobson v Mass which all the pro vaxxers try to bring up, I included this in my post and proved that he wasnt forced to vaccinate at the end and the court case was about paying a fine since he refused the vaccine.”
I dont get this. I am ignoring a case other people brought up that you think is relevent to my point?
whats your question for me.My question for you is simple:
you say you are worried about ” being shunned from society and have all his rights taken away from him.”WHAT RIGHTS?
You mentioned the right ot purchae food.
Yet you concede that “for the time being” tnobody took this right away. So stop hocking a kop.
(nevermind the fact, that I’m not sure the U.S recognizes this right, so it doesnt really exist AND nobody is suggesting taking it away, you just need to be vaccinated much like you need to wear pants to buy food)
“““Driving is not a necessity ”
1) In my isolated town it is”-Then get a drivers license”
YES ! NAILED IT!
If I cant do something because of MY choice. That isnt my right being taken away. Just get a driver’s license! Agree completely.similarly just get vaccinated.
nailed it!I dont understand your practice medicine post “With your ideology you should also have a right to practice medicine without a license ”
No. There is no “right to practice mdciine”
I could be the best doctor in the world. Maybe I was even trained in the top University. If I dont apply for an get a license I cant practice medicine. period. This is not a violation of my rights.
Both because there is no right to practice medicine AND just apply for a license and practice.Similarly
Even if you cant buy food if not vaccinated (which isnt a thing) I still wouldnt be a violation of your rights (though again don’t think the US recognizes such a right)
Just get vaccinated.“You are totally mixing up so many things and drawing for straws.”
True, because you make illogical statements to further explain your illogical statements.
When asked what right is being violated.
You replied with a right that doesn’t exist AND isn’t being violated (as you concede) AND even if you had to be vaccinated to buy food that still wouldn’t be a violation of said right just get vaccinated.Since you either don’t read or have comprehension issues, I’ll repeat it. Driving a car requires qualification. Performing surgery requires qualifications as well. These things require knowledge, skill, ability to operate machinery, practice and so on. Buying food or going to a restaurant does NOT.
Let’s put this in Judaism terms maybe you will understand. You can want to be a shochet,a moel,check shatnez or anything else. These things require QUALIFICATIONS. That entails learning, practicing, knowing laws, etc. Noone is saying you cannot learn to become any of these things(you have liberty to choose aka rights) but If you are NOT QUALIFIED, you cannot actually do any of these until you are. That’s very different from being forced to take a vaccine in order to live. Do you realize how foolish your comparison is?You asked someone in earlier post how long trials should be. Well generally vaccines are tested for around 7 years to be approved. i know we live in a fast paced world, but we still haven’t figured out a way to fast forward time. People have not even had the vaccine for a year. That is not long term at all.
We already know the short term injuries, severe side effects and deaths from this vaccine(there should not be any harm or death to someone from a vaccine against a virus that kind of defeats the purpose). Long term can take LONGER. People can develop all types of issues. You asked how can you know it’s from the vaccine? Well the same way we know the short term health disorders that occured from this vaccine. Because if many vaccinated have similar problems, it doesn’t take a genius to figure it out. The fact that they cover it up and say it wasn’t from the vaccine is a different story.‘No. There is no “right to practice mdciine”
I could be the best doctor in the world. Maybe I was even trained in the top University. If I dont apply for an get a license I cant practice medicine. period. This is not a violation of my rights.
Both because there is no right to practice medicine AND just apply for a license and practice.”-are you arguing against yourself? Who said you have a right to practice medicine. I said you have a right to aspire to practice medicine and once you have the qualifications, you can practice! Of course that entails all the diplomas and necessary licenses which are a matter of money at that point and maybe some minor extra exams. What’s your point? Did you expect to practice medicine without a license? How is this the same as being forced to vaccinate honestly you are making no sense.
Getting a vaccine is not a qualification.“medicine and once you have the qualifications, you can practice”
So if I have the qualifications and can’t be bothered to apply for license. Or am unwilling to pay. If the government says I can’t practice is that infringing on my rights?
I can not buy food without wearing pants. Is that infringing on my rights?
“Who said you have a right to practice medicine”
You. We are discussing. Rights you claim forcing you to accinations infringes on your rights. I asked what right.. you Said right to buy food. I pointed out how this right is not being infringed you can still buy all the food yiu want just vaccinate first. (I also pointed out 2 other reasons why this claim was nonsense).
You then compared it to practicing medicine.I mentioned I don’t really understand the connection. Since we are discussing rights I assumed you were presenting it as a right. Otherwise I don’t get the connection.
2sc > Re the data for the lack if increase in Covid cases, more so hospitalized cases, I am not sure it’s possible to obtain such data.
In a previous discussion here, when someone asked a similar question, I compared publicly available numbers for Lakewood with nearby counties. At that point, the deaths were, I recall, 2x higher and 4x higher if you correct by (lower) percentage of old people in Lakewood. That poster did not reply. Check the archive. Feel free to re-do the numbers for current period – maybe immunity safeguarded Lakewood community going forward and the comparison looks better now. Or look up some other Charedi town in US or Israel. Your move.
> alwaysask, you dont own this country so please refrain from giving advice as if you are some sort of ruler.
I am giving an advice as a friend, rulers do not advise, they order. We live in a country/world that is ruled by many nations. You don’t need to run out of your wits if not everything is perfect. Generations of Jews lived honestly while being governed by much worse rulers than we do.
In regards to Risch paper, there is a March 2021 Lancet paper (see at the end) that refers to Risch and concludes that were no benefits. There was also a letter showing that described non-randomized experiments were not statistically valid. To trace this further, you can go to medline or pubmed or google scholar or any other citation system, find the paper you care about, and then look up later papers that cite your paper. Some may just include it into a list, but some might actually be a follow-up.
from a quick review pf Risch paper, I noticed 2 things:
1) a way to correct non-randomized trials is to match patients by their demographics – age, gender, health status. I don’t see this done
2) paper quotes one result that HCQ-AZ achieves 25x benefit, while HCQ by itself achieves 4x benefit. Given that later argument shifted to HCQ-AZ helps while HCQ does not, the quoted 4x benefit is a red flag – if this is a false conclusionChristine Johnston et al, Hydroxychloroquine with or without azithromycin for treatment of early SARS-CoV-2 infection among high-risk outpatient adults: A randomized clinical trial
2scents, you seem to consider an advantage for the community to get natural immunity quickly. If you mean that almost anyone gets sick, then it means that everyone at risk got sick and possibly died. I don’t think you mean that. I see two ways to get advantage of natural immunity:
1) expose young mobile population to virus. they are responsible for propagation, and thus protect elderly as yungeles will not be infecting them. Interesting idea, but it requires some discipline during that early stage – youngsters get sick but do not communicate with elders. Might have worked with those elders who isolated, like it seem R’ Edelstein @ Ponevezh did. Still, a lot of propagation goes through middle age working age population and exposing them all might mean a lot of death. Maybe this could have worked early on – ship all younsters – or all elderly – to a different location (Catskills, Florida) for a month, let youngsters get sick, and bring everyone back.
2) get early virus to avoid later deadlier variant. So far, it seems that “popular” strains alpha, delta are more contagious rather than more deadly.
AAQ,
I dont think you understood what I wrote.
I was not advising on any specific plan of action. Rather, noting an observation.
Furthermore, it may very well be that with time my observation will be proven to he incorrect.
2sc> noting an observation.
I see. It may be true that communities that were not careful were more exposed at the beginning, had very high rates then, and lower rates later. I don’t think it gave any overall benefits though, unless older people were strictly isolated. More than 50% of transmissions happen in the family, so if kids got it, they will transmit to parents and then to grandparents.
But your observation highlights importance of the discussed question whether previously sick require a vaccine, especially if those sick were in the early months and now more than a year passed and new variants are around, so some people might think that they are still protected when they are not.
and there is probably a positive correlation between those who were not careful l’hathila and got sick and vaccine hesitancy, so this cluster – sick early and not vaccinated – is one to watch for increase in disease, and, presumably, recommend to take one does of mRNA or JJ.
“It may be true that communities that were not careful were more exposed at the beginning, had very high rates then, and lower rates later”
This is exactly what’s happening. I have been trying to get you to acknowledge/hear that for months.
“so this cluster – sick early and not vaccinated – is one to watch for increase in disease, a”
No! This is NOT the case according to the er nurse and healthcare workers I’ve been checking in with. Please,acknowledge that your assumption on this is NOT the case. Please be willing to admit you are mistaken and they are NOT the ones getting sick right now. It is the unvaccinated but it is not the groups who you feel so desperate to condemn. Please be willing to put fact over agenda, you can still use it to condemn the unvaccinated even tho you were mostly incorrect about your theory on the careless.
At this point in time, the only options we have are to adopt those protocols and strategies which are proven to have some positive effect on mitigation of transmission and hospitalizations (aka vaccination, masking, social distancing, limiting large gatherings, etc) but sadly there is no silver bullet that will effectively eliminate the virus. As of this AM, EY reported 9,831 new diagnosed cases, nearly equal to the worst daily figure ever recorded —10,000—at the peak of the third wave. More than 300 Israelis have been niftar from Covid in chodesh Elul. On Sunday, the directors of seven public hospitals announced that they could no longer admit any coronavirus patients with nearly 700 COVID patients requiring critical care overflowing their ICUs.
The government seems torn between following the guidance of the public health officials versus the politicians worried that Israelis will rebel against any lockdown over the yamim noraim. This impasse seems like a formula to guarantee full employment for the chevrah kadishahs.Health
“Check out the latest Medscape News about HCQ.
They did/brought like 30 studies that HCQ alone works for Covid.”I am not sure as to what article you are referring to, I will paste below from Medscape, which unlike what you stated, is very clear about HCQ not being effective.
If you are not interested in reading the article, or what was posted below, the basic conclusion is that at this point all studies have shown no benefit to any group of patients when it comes to the Covid virus.
I am not sure why some people are hooked on a specific theoretical treatment and keep on repeating it as if it were some religious thing.
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Treatment & Management
Updated: Aug 18, 2021
Author: David J Cennimo, MD, FAAP, FACP, FIDSA, AAHIVS; Chief Editor: Michael Stuart Bronze, MD“Based on its ongoing analysis of the EUA and emerging scientific data, the FDA determined that hydroxychloroquine is unlikely to be effective in treating COVID-19 for the authorized uses in the EUA. Additionally, in light of ongoing serious cardiac adverse events and other potential serious adverse effects, the known and potential benefits of hydroxychloroquine no longer outweigh the known and potential risks for the EUA.
Although additional clinical trials may continue to evaluate potential benefit, the FDA determined the EUA was no longer appropriate.
Additionally, the NIH halted the Outcomes Related to COVID-19 treated with Hydroxychloroquine among In-patients with symptomatic Disease (ORCHID) study on June 20, 2020. After the fourth analysis that included more than 470 participants, the NIH data and safety monitoring board determined that, while there was no harm, the study drug was very unlikely to be beneficial to hospitalized patients with COVID-19. [333]”
“Hydroxychloroquine did not improve outcomes when administered to outpatient adults (n = 423) with early COVID-19. Change in symptom severity over 14 days did not differ between the hydroxychloroquine and placebo groups (P = 0.117). At 14 days, 24% (49 of 201) of participants receiving hydroxychloroquine had ongoing symptoms compared with 30% (59 of 194) receiving placebo (P = 0.21). Medication adverse effects occurred in 43% (92 of 212) of participants receiving hydroxychloroquine compared with 22% (46 of 211) receiving placebo (P< 0.001). Among patients receiving placebo, 10 were hospitalized (two cases unrelated to COVID-19), one of whom died. Among patients receiving hydroxychloroquine, four were hospitalized and one nonhospitalized patient died (P = 0.29). [339]”
Various clinical trials in the United States were initiated to determine if hydroxychloroquine reduces the rate of infection when used by individuals at high risk for exposure, such as high-risk healthcare workers, first responders, and individuals who share a home with a COVID-19–positive individual. [340, 341, 342, 343, 344, 345]
Results from the PATCH trial (n=125) did not show any benefit of hydroxychloroquine to reduce infection among healthcare workers compared with placebo. [342]
Another study rerolled 1483 healthcare workers, of which 79% performed aerosol-generating procedures did not show a difference in preventing infection with once or twice weekly hydroxychloroquine compared with placebo. The incidence of SARS-CoV-2 laboratory-confirmed or symptomatic compatible illness was 0.27 events per person-year with once-weekly and 0.28 events per person-year with twice-weekly hydroxychloroquine compared with 0.38 events per person-year with placebo (P = 0.18 and 0.22 respectively). [346]
Results from a double-blind randomized trial (n = 821) from the University of Minnesota found no benefit of hydroxychloroquine (n = 414) in preventing illness due to COVID-19 compared with placebo (n = 407) when used as postexposure prophylaxis in asymptomatic participants within 4 days following high-risk or moderate-risk exposure. Overall, 87.6% of participants had high-risk exposures without eye shields and surgical masks or respirators. New COVID-19 (either PCR-confirmed or symptomatically compatible) developed in 107 participants (13%) during the 14-day follow-up. Incidence of new illness compatible with COVID-19 did not differ significantly between those receiving hydroxychloroquine (49 of 414 [11.8%]) and those receiving placebo (58 of 407 [14.3%]) (P = 0.35). [347]
“The government seems torn between following the guidance of the public health officials versus the politicians worried that Israelis will rebel against any lockdown over the yamim noraim”
I know you prefer that evil behavior be attributed to the religious but you are missing a piece here.one of the reasons the beds are full and the hospitals are overwhelmed is because Bennet stated he does not want to release emergency funds to the hospitals. How do you skip over that? And I’m putting aside the part that he instructed the healthcare people to make the numbers work to that end.Sometimes it just isn’t about religious people wanting to go to shul.
Syag: Nowhere in my post did I reference anything about”frum people going to shul” nor is that the only issue. I referenced a “lockdown” such as imposed previously which applied across the board to concerts, soccer games, and large gatherings of any type, NOT just focused on shuls. I personally plan to daven in person this year (whether outdoors or indoors) given that I have been vaccinated and will be wearing a mask along with all the others (except the baal tefilah). However, we live in an area where fortunately, the level of infection and community spread has been VERY low. Our shul also has the ability to set up for large seating outside with some modest spacing if the weather permits. Given the recent numbers in EY, they may have to consider more extreme measure before things get out of control. Politicians at this point seem to be reluctant to act quickly and decisively in advance of the yom tovim.
As to funding, of course the funds should be released asap. However, my understanding is that the amount of funding that is being debated with the hospital administrators will come nowhere close to expanding the ICU capacity nor are there sufficient trained nursing staff to manage the worse case scenarios. Hopefully, the current 4th wave of the Delta variant will decline quickly, as it seems to have done in the UK, before the yom tovim but if not, it could be a really massive challenge to avoid a much bigger problem than Bennett et al. seem prepared for.
“will rebel against any lockdown over the yamim noraim””
Forgive my failure to attribute the above quote to concerts and soccer games 🙄
“However, my understanding is that the amount of funding that is being debated with the hospital administrators will come nowhere close to expanding the ICU capacity nor are there sufficient trained nursing staff to manage the worse case scenarios.”
My understanding was that it was a refusal to release that level of funding. And why wouldn’t there be trained staff? They already did this last year.
Syag> This is exactly what’s happening. I have been trying to get you to acknowledge/hear that for months.
Syag, if you are saying that your community indeed did not take precautions and got so sick early on, and this is indeed true, then you should all put black clothes on and sit and fast for the great number of people that were killed and sick, rather then explaining that now is a great time to go to vacations.
Syag> This is NOT the case according to the er nurse and healthcare workers I’ve been checking in with. Please,acknowledge that your assumption on this is NOT the case.
Baruch Hashem, I am saying – to watch, I do not have definite data. As I mentioned, a friend recently got back from ICU – did not vaccinate because he was slightly sick before, and there were some cases in the news also.
The question is – how to monitor and mitigate. I do not have confidence that the same people who were not careful first time, will now be able to monitor the situation.
your ER nurses mention unvaccinated – do they ask them if these unvaxed had symptoms last year? used this to make a decision not to vax? I would presume that unvaxed people in general commmunity would be similar in behaviors to the ones in the community – the ones who were not isolating before, probably younger, etc. Maybe you can clarify more what they said.
2scents, actually numbers you are quoting show some HCQ benefit across multiple studies. Even if each of them is below stat significance, they jointly will not be.
24% v 30% in placebo had symptoms
4 hospitalized v 8 or 10
1 died in both
0.27 events per year v 0.38
11.8 % v 14.3%Cochrane review is a gold standard for meta-studies, trying to evaluate significance from multiple independent trials. Feb 2021 B Singh et al Chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine for prevention and treatment of COVID‐19 shows no benefit for HCQ in both treatment and prophylactics.
Are you putting on some kind of act?
pro vaccine or anti, serious question. Can anyone please just show proof that there are no long term side effects say in the next few years from this vaccine? I think this will be really helpful to know since the vaccine hasnt been tested for 7 years yet.
historyofvaccines .org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation
“Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement.
The current system for developing, testing, and regulating vaccines developed during the 20th century as the groups involved standardized their procedures and regulations.”
–oh wow. how times change overnight
Health,
I tried finding the alleged Medscape article, but all I got was a website dedicated to HCQ treatment and it has word for word what you wrote. But not any Medscape article.
I did spend a couple of minutes on this site, it states that there are 278 studies showing positive effects. I checked a few of the referenced papers, why was I not shocked to actually see that the paper states there is zero difference between those that were given HQC and those that were not given?
“You just can’t Let people Die!”
Is not an excuse for advocating against an unproven treatment.Rightwriter,
“Can anyone please just show proof that there are no long term side effects say in the next few years from this vaccine?”
Unless there is some sort of time traveling machine that allows us to take a peak at the future, there is no way to know for sure. But we can assume things based on the information we do already have.
Furthermore, there needs to be a rational to the fear. Otherwise, its baseless fear mongering.
A better question would be, does anyone know the long term side effects of acquiring the Covid 19 virus (termed long haulers), the known minor and the more serious side effects?
Yes, we know they exist. However, we are not sure if they will resolve with time, or they will leave permanent scarring.
With regards to the vaccines, is there a reason to believe that there will be side effects down the road, especially when they dont exist now? And if some sort of negative effect does occur in a number of years from now, how would we be able to associate it with the covid vaccine, vs something else?
Therefore, being that the vaccines have gone through the acceptable testing phase, being that billions of people have already gotten the vaccine, including nearly 170-180 million people in the USA, it would be considered a rather safe vaccine.
2scents”Unless there is some sort of time traveling machine that allows us to take a peak at the future, there is no way to know for sure.”
-my point exactly
“But we can assume things based on the information we do already have”
-uh uh stop right there. Since we don’t have a time traveling machine as we have already established, less than a year of trial proves no safety for long term which takes us back to square one.
“Furthermore, there needs to be a rational to the fear. Otherwise, its baseless fear mongering.”
-ever heard of the Tuskegee experiment? Ever heard of pills that had been taken off the market years later due to dangerous side effects only discovered…years later?
Ever heard of FDA approved meds with known dangers but we’re approved anyway?
Not such baseless fear.Health, I looked at the underlying hcqmeta site referred in Medscape Aug 21 article. Here is what results actually say. I am looking at only RCT (randomized controlled) not “early” tests:
Prophylaxis gets some 20% on average improvement
Late treatment shows 50% improvement
Early treatment results – many show improvement 505 on average, but most are very small. biggest ones Recovery, Solidarity show that HCQ is worse than controls. These studies also seem to be on sicker patients (10-25% dying in controls), while many positive studies have 1-10% dying.There is also 2x less benefit in North America comparing with all other regions
Overall, it seems it seems from this analysis that HCQ is moderately beneficial, but not under all conditions and not for all people.
I apologize, I looked at the wrong rows when analyzing the data, please disregard that post. Correcting:
early treatment shows consistent 50% improvement but with very small sample sizes: 3 out of 7 studies that had >100 people (100 to 300) in each of the arms have 12%, 16%, 37% improvement.
So, it is some modest improvement with not a lot of data. Understand that for early treatments, we are talking low mortality, so 100 patients = 4 deaths, the numbers are really low.Prophylaxis has 5 studies with 400+ people in each arm with 30% improvement
late treatment: much more data, 17% improvement on average, but all big trials negatives
so, overall seems that HCQ is somewhat helpful and should be used early, maybe as prophylaxis upon exposure
2SC > A better question would be, does anyone know the long term side effects of acquiring the Covid 19 virus
I agree that unknown risk of a bat or Chinese virus is higher than of a vaccine developed by responsible scientists. note the terms that RW and others introduced – “natural immunity” as if they are taking Vitamins. Not sure whether this is a proper scientific term, or Chinese are marketing their virus this way 🙂
Rightwriter
The adverse effects of most of the medications you are referring to were there at the get go, it only got more apparent with time.
There are billions of people already vaccinated. If any adverse effects would have been associated with the vaccine, it would have been apparent at this time.
Rightwriter
“-uh uh stop right there. Since we don’t have a time traveling machine as we have already established, less than a year of trial proves no safety for long term which takes us back to square one”
What is the premise of this hypothetical concern?
If the vaccine has been ok up until now, why would that change in 7 years from now?
Naturally produced antibodies/natural immunity
First of all it was a lab made virus so let’s not pretend it wasn’t. Secondly if someone already had COVID-19, why would they also want to risk unknown side effects from a spur of the moment vaccine?
Health,
“I feel bad for you – how many people with Covid could You have saved if you weren’t following the Gov.”
Lets focus at the facts, stooping to low levels and personal insults is inappropriate. Leave me out if this, for all you know I’m a fat single dude living out my parents basement drinking beer all day making believe that I know a thing or so.
The webpage makes the statements about HQC, but your taking then at face value without actually checking the studies they reference.
Which makes one wonder if you truly about facts, or you’ve already made up your opinion and just need something to support it.
If it so turns out that there is an effective treatment, whatever that may be, I (and many many others) will support it.
Health,
The website seems spammy at best, while it has a legitimate perception there is no way if knowing who is behind this webpage.
The objective of this webpage was to come across as legitimate so people such as yourself will perceive this to be a legitimate source.
There are a few duplicate websites with different Similar URLs, which adds concern.
So no, please dont take their word at face value.
Read the studies you linked. HCQ and Ivermectin probably work as effective remedies to lessen the symptoms of COVID-19. But they are far from a silver bullet. Even if they were being used widespread in all COVID cases, the most optimistic studies show that it would have only had a 10-20% change in how many people died. Maybe.
The best remedy is still prevention. Get vaccinated if you haven’t had a positive COVID test in the last few months. If you can’t or won’t vaccinate, avoid contact with people and wear a mask when leaving your house.
Also if you go to the CDC Website and WHO and check out the articles of vaccine phases and trials length, when you click on ore info on both sites you get “error this page has been removed”
WOW if that doesnt indicate anything to you nothing will. This is truly scary, not only are they manipulating what pages you see by censoring, they are completely removing accessible information from their own websites to eliminate historical research and evidence.
No words.https://www.cdc .gov/vaccines/basics/test-approve.html
(click here when on website)-For more information and to find out about new vaccines on the horizon, see the World Health Organization’s (WHO’s) Development of New Vaccines web page.
rightwriter,
“WOW if that doesnt indicate anything to you nothing will. This is truly scary, not only are they manipulating what pages you see by censoring, they are completely removing accessible information from their own websites to eliminate historical research and evidence.”
Nah, not that scary. Even if what you are stating is correct, it simply is a website error and has nothing to do about the safety of the vaccines. If this is what you are hanging on to, I would say you should reevaluate your position.
Furthermore, those links on the sides that you are referring to, those links simply jump specific places on this same page, they are not linked to any new pages.
Health,
The website you have been referring to seems to be a scam website. Others have pointed this out online. There are many similar-sounding websites all pointing to the same IP address with the same content. Alledging that there are many RCTs indicating that some treatment is effective.
Yet, the actual content is bogus and designed to give a legitimate perception so that people will fall for this. It’s a clever sham, but not enough to have those that really care to follow it blindly.
Interesting concept that I have noted, those that go around accusing others about something, usually are guilty of the very same.
For example, those that accuse providers for ‘blindly’ following established treatment protocols, are usually guilty of ‘blindly’ following some garbage extremist agenda.
Those that are soooo concerned about the theoretical potential side effect of the vaccine and accuse others of ignoring these unfounded concerns, will ignore the known and documented side effects of the disease the vaccine is preventing.
More so, it’s very unsettling when people have a position they need to defend and then go around looking for evidence that would support their position, it should work the other way around, your position should be established only after looking at the facts.
Of course the Jews are always used as a scapegoat eventually
Health,
Your making it quite difficult to have a decent mature discussion.
However, I hope everyone appreciates the notion of you coming up on your own on how to treat Covid and only later finding this on a scam website, which seems to work for you.
As someone once said, I already made up my mind, don’t confuse me with the facts.
The scary part is that Bill Gates warns of a new pandemic after COVID-19 which will be much worse and we are not prepared for it. Wow, really? So unleashing covid on the whole world wasn’t enough for him and he couldn’t even wait for the pandemic to be over to announce a new one on the way? What a sadistic creature he and all the elites surrounding him. Here is the YouTube link of him announcing the next pandemic after COVID-19.
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