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Think of it as 100 learning boys called him 4 weeks ago and asked for an appointment to talk to him today. If that makes it better.
Look, I’m sorry if you’re not having it easy in shidduchim, and I believe you if you generally feel slighted by shadchanim. I just don’t think this is a good example.
adam3 – I and several of my friends are looking for guys like you. The shadchanim I’ve spoken to have equated the learners as the “better” guys as well. In my experience, I generally get set up with the type I’m looking for by friends, neighbors, etc. It helps to network – and not just with shadchanim.
Dunno: same here! It’s my friends and coworkers that are generally setting me up! And I’ve even had to wait on line to go out with certain guys like Adam3 because they had a “list” of girls…
networking is definitely important!
The freezer just opened and we are too busy to make a list of shadchanim for guys like you now. When we have more time we will be in touch.
So who are the shadchanim to go to? Do we have any contact information?
friend in flatbush, thanks for bringing back this thread! was about to go search for it and bump it!!
It is clear from the girls posting here that they have difficulty finding these type of boys. And to blame that totally (or even mostly) on the shadchanim is, I think, a bit silly.
So it seems that a large percentage of these bots are NOT the same as learning boys, in more areas than just how many hours they learn.
Do the majority of working people, especially in today’s job market, actually manage to put in large amounts of time learning, as these posters portray ? Its usually just not possible. And I’m not hiding in Lakewood somewhere, but am very familiar with working communities. Are the shuls in such communities bursting on Sundays ? Some. Not most. And yes, I know those guys who amazingly manage. I’m not talking about them.
The fact that there may be many full-time learners who are not actually learning full time, and may have many other negatives, does not preclude the association between one who wants to dedicate (much of) his life to learning and higher level of frumkeit. It is quite a logical association, in terms of percentages, when eliminating the explicitly “bad guys” from both groups.
No one is going to post here that they respect learning guys that don’t have midos. So lets discuss just learners vs. workers who are good guys.
Give me a full time learner who actually does put in those hours, and is not a write-off of a person, and you have very good chances of someone who is very medakdek in halacha (I’m talking about awareness, not chumros), runs a house where ruchniyus is stressed, etc. Give me a good guy who’s working from a young age, and the possibility of his “home” looking significantly different in terms of more secular etc is quite larger.
I post this keeping in mind the many posters here who are clearly working, and display both Midos and Torah knowledge. I’m obviously talking percentages.
Also – would people stop posting about their middle-aged husbands and fathers. The world has changed, like it or not. Different situation, different challenges. I’m not talking right or wrong – just what goes on, based on what our system produces.
OK, that’s all for now. You can all go ahead and sputter with indignation. And go on about my bad midos for saying that. Because, by the way, that seems to be the go-to accusation whenever anyone utters a positive word about learning guys.
i don’t think the shadchanim are to blame! I just don’t think there are enough shadchanim out there that are known to work with us…
logician, I am profoundly insulted by your assumption that working full time means you cant learn. I know a (married) guy in his 20s who learns for an hour or 2 before davening at a 7 or 730 minyan before going to work and also has a night seder chevrusa for a few hours.
If someone has a normal 9-5 job, there is plenty of time to learn if thats your priority, and the point is, there are guys who recognize they cant learn full time, but still have the priority to learn when they can
Hey college, half day learners or earners,
You guys are in high premium……If you are a good guy, mensch and toradik the girls are looking for you!! Stop walking with sloughed shoulders or rounded shoulders,,,,you are who the girls are interested in NOW!!!
Firstly, its a bit ridiculous to be insulted regarding a factual assumption. If I was right, it would be due to logistics, not to them not wanting to learn. So I’m not sure you’re quite even-headed enough to make it worthwhile to have this conversation.
As to your claim – Number one, most young guys I know do not manage to have 9-5 jobs, without long commutes, and which don’t require time during other hours. Secondly, I don’t debate the existence of such guys, as I explicitly said. I do assert that its relatively not so common.
And let me reiterate – I’m not saying that makes them so terrible. Simply that they will usually have much less learning in their lives, with whatever effect one hypothesizes may come with.
Logician, I hear what you are saying about the effect of having less learning… brings me back to my thought process from years ago; If a guy truly values his learning time, why isn’t he in the bais medrash? But I can’t afford to support someone that is learning full time… So does that mean I won’t ever find someone that will be my partner in building home of Torah that has all the basic physical necessities? I need a real ben Torah that can help me with the financial aspect of building a home… But i really want his heart in the bais medrash… so why isn’t he there??? see- my thoughts go around in circles, and I wonder if the kind of guy I’m looking for actually exists…
hodulashem – of course he exists. And his heart can be in the bais medrash even if he is working because sometimes guys know they have to work to afford the bayis neeman hey hope to build. I know many men/guys like that and there is no question they are out there.
I know many men/guys like that and there is no question they are out there.
We all do. Do we know a lot of bochurim like that, though? I don’t.
well maybe you live a very narrow minded and sheltered life. Maybe.
Or maybe hodulashem is right that in the majority, someone whose heart is in the beis medrash will be there physically as well.
well then I will try to be much more careful to run my personal experiences by you before trying to be michazek someone. sorry for the upset.
logician, I am profoundly insulted by your assumption that working full time means you cant learn. I know a (married) guy in his 20s who learns for an hour or 2 before davening at a 7 or 730 minyan before going to work and also has a night seder chevrusa for a few hours.
I’m calling garbage on this.
Does he learn for an hour before davening, or does he learn 2? Which one is it? That isn’t a small difference.
I gander the same way you don’t know if he learns an hour or 2, you also don’t know if he shows up every day, or if he learns at night, or if he goes to maariv at all.
I’ve never met a guy who works full time who even does daf yomi daily. Best I’ve ever found is someone who occasionally does a daf.
syag lchochma, I appreciated your chizuk 🙂 thanks.
I guess it doesn’t really matter how many guys like this each person knows… all i need is one
your attitude is right on, he’ll be lucky to have you!
I’ve met (and know) dozens. Poor popa is too busy meeting YCTniks to encounter the torahdik types. I’ve never met a YCTnik (yet they possibly exist).
popa – not exactly sure who you are trying to rattle cuz I know what you said is baloney. I know plenty of bnei Torah who do, and I have no doubt you do too.
Wow Popa. not sure where you’re going with this.
hodulashem –
You see, there are two types of working guys:
1. Fully machshiv learning, but has decided not to do so full time. This would be due to reasons of hashkafa, temperament, or inability. You’d be looking for the former, or some combination.
2. Those who’re pulled elsewhere. Other values are competing for their attention.
In today’s Yeshiva system, like it or not, you aren’t getting too many of the former. Even someone not so able or “made out for it” will likely pursue it for at least some time. (Perhaps due to societal expectations, perhaps unfortunately.) And to buck the system due to one’s personal hashkafos… not so common. Even in the Yeshivos that have catered in the past to college are turning more and more to the “right”.
So too some extent you’re right for questioning why the good capable boy isn’t in Beis Hamedrash. On the other hand, the boys you’re looking for do exist, so…
Practically: many girls I “know” in exactly your situation end up changing their tune somewhat, and marrying a boy who will learn “short term”. they just weren’t finding the seriousness and frumkeit elsewhere.
And you know what? Why weren’t they interested in that in the first place ? Of course it’s easier to start pre-med at 21 (or whatever). But hishtadlus is very grey, and not to be overdone. A couple of years of learning is very feasible for the majority of couples, and carries so many wonderful benefits, totally separate from the “learn as long as you can” attitude and lifestyle.
And I know MANY boys in shiduchim who are from the “learning camp”, with many of the ma’alos associated, who know that for whatever reason they won’t be learning long-term.
Logician, I wish that a couple years of learning was feasible for me… but at this point, i don’t yet have my degree, and most of my salary is going towards college tuition… that is why at this stage of my life I need someone that is working. I don’t know what Hashem has in “mind” for me, but I don’t think I’ll be able to “change my tune” until I get my degree (another 2 years)… I hope to find the level of frumkeit I’m looking for in a husband before then, but based on your perspective, I see that I need to raise the level on my davening… which i should be doing regardless…
(sigh…)
hodulashem – you should always work on your davening but I don’t think you should despair. Some of us are saying that we see the situation to be much less bleak for finding real, authentic, frum males with the hashkofos you speak of.
Syag, once again, I really appreciate your chizuk! It’s really my dating experience that makes me despair more than anonymous posts… that is why I have an easier time relating to Logician’s perspective… But I am certainly not disregarding your comments! Just waiting to meet the real, authentic, frum male you speak of lol.
It’s frustrating on so many levels… My older brothers are all in kollel or are rebbeim and I share their hashkafos and value their lifestyle and wish to have Torah in my home as they do… (they have truly beautiful homes -i don’t mean in a physical sense!) But because I am female, I need to present big bucks in order to marry someone with those hashkafos… Not because the bochurim out there are selfish and greedy- but because if the guy’s gonna be learning, the money’s gotta come from somewhere! So i’ve gone out with guys that are learner-earners… but their hashkafos and midos are just not up to par with the ben Torah I want to lead my home… and as we keep discussing- it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t exist! This is just a frustrating tekufa in my life (and I’m sure in many other girls’ lives…) and hopefully one day I will look back and laugh for every feeling an ounce of despair…
I was reading through this conversation, and I think some very valid points have come up. I have been debating with some of my teachers, friends and parents about this. Whoever started this post, adam3 I want to applaud you for your point in the first post! I really can understand where you’re coming from and it makes 100 percent sense! I am a girl so I know that when I say that when bh I will be ready for shidduchim I want a working boy everyone goes crazy! They think I am going off the derecch or something!What people don’t understand is that not evey frum boy out there is cut out to learn full day and not every girl out there is cut out to work full day, or extra hard because her husband is learning full time. But these people are still solid frum boys and bais yakov girls! In society today people unfortuantly are not willing to understand or accept this.
And yet I’m going to go out on a limb and say that most boys who start working (not college) while single aren’t learnig part-time either (and by that I don’t mean one or two hours).
Not saying anything too terrible about them, nor saying they have to be in learning – just pointing out that the “not everyone is cut out for full time learning” explanation is liberally applied in many inapplicable cases.
Logician: That doesn’t change the fact that working guys shouldn’t be considered second-class just because they aren’t in yeshiva all day.
And FYI, I know of many guys in yeshiva “full-time” who don’t learn more than 2 hours a day!
I never said or implied anything about your first point, and I explicitly stated the second.
Was having a discussion with hodulashem about the reasons for her unfortunate difficulties with shidduchim.
Chill out.
Logician: Well based on the guys I’ve gone out with who were supposedly looking to live a “Torah centered life” but couldn’t stop talking about how much they dislike yeshiva and wanted to focus more on their career, I am definitely hearing you.
hakol b’yidei shomayim… iyH everyone at the right time.
What about broken ones?
What is even more disconcerting is that so many girls who claim to be looking for guys like me will say no when they finally are redt something that makes sense.
But yes, as a whole, the guys not in yeshiva full-time will be *less likely* to want a home focused around Torah learning and Torah ideals.
Also, why do people always assume that getting married while in a Yeshiva will help set a precedent for the rest of the marriage? Is there any proof that this is, in fact, the case?
I don’t think anyone can furnish any ‘proof’ for any of the assertions we’re throwing around here. Just strong anecdotal evidence.
Of course, if you’re just staying there for your ‘name’, but really are waiting to leave, no difference. But otherwise it might make lot of sense. If you set a tone in the house, a certain routine where Torah is supreme, so that atmosphere can more easily continue despite spending much less time actually learning. In addition, the difficulties in college or the workplace are presumably easier to handle when equipped with the “shemira’ of being married and the stability of the home.
I just came across this site/forum and I feel I need to put in my 2 cents. My daughter is of a similar age to you, adam3, and looking for a guy like you–someone who works to support his family but who has a strong ethic to continue his learning in some form. She, and her single friends, are all looking for someone like this. They are, by and large, out of town girls who have a very different view. They are all attractive, bright, college-educated girls who are looking for college-educated guys with strong Torah values. And they, too, are going to shadchanim who drop them like hot potatoes as soon as the next sweet young thing just out of seminary comes along. I think, if they ever do suggest someone, it’s more like “oh, she needs a shidduch, he needs a shidduch. It doesn’t matter that there is nothing remotely in common, but they’ve got to be desperate so WTH.” I’m not a shadchan, but who knows. What are you looking for?
A mature girl who treats others with respect and kindness, no matter their socioeconomic or political status.
Someone who views halacha as a religious framework, not a burden.
Educated, and a good conversationalist with a thirst for knowledge and growth.
Well-rounded, sophisticated, and capable.
People always tell us that there is someone out there for everyone and you never know who, what, where it’s going to come from. One should leave no stone unturned. I find it very interesting that you boys, the counterparts to those middle of the road girls, are having the same difficulties the girls are having. We never hear about you guys? I don’t get it. If you boys are out there looking for the kinds of girls DD and her friends are, why are the shadchanim not doing their jobs to match you all up?
I don’t know what the “rules” are for this forum, but is it possible to get your profiles? Maybe, just maybe, we can do something practical about this issue.
Sorry, but this forum is not designed or set up for it. -100
bubbebia: I wouldn’t mind sending over my profile just to prove to you that we exist. Of course, it’s not easy to facilitate this over the Coffee Room.
I don’t know Adam3, but don’t believe he would object, though usually the girl’s resume is sent first.
As I said before, it is very often where girls will say no to a guy who is learning/college/working or some combo despite asking for that type.
If you want to connect to each other, why not try a dating website. You may even find a few other people also.
I’m thinking as more of a shadchan type of thing. Is there a way to PM me so we can “talk” further?
No.
I’m pretty sure the dating websites have a PM function.
Why don’t you just say the name of the website you’ll both join. And then look for anyone who matches what you’re looking for.
I’ve never met a guy who works full time who even does daf yomi daily. Best I’ve ever found is someone who occasionally does a daf. “
My son works full time and learns every night. My husband attends a daf yomi every night and around half the guys there are employed full time (other half, like my husband, are retired). There are many such Daf Yomi groups in my neighborhood, and several guys learn Daf Yomi every morning in one car of the train in which they commute to work every day. Where there is a will, there is always a way.
I think some people are afraid that once a bochur is no longer in the safe confines of the Yeshivah, under the watchful eye of his Mashgiach, he will Ch”V actually NOT make the time to learn regularly (because who will know if he does or doesn’t?). That is really sad, and even sadder were it to be true. Earning a living (and training to do so) is crucial to learning. Im ein kemach, ein Torah.
Without the “working boys” there’d be no “learning boys”. Or maybe there would be but they’d all be penniless. So yeah.
Does anyone know what portion of the current generation of fathers and fathers-in-law who support their children in full-time learning started their own working lives without any post-yeshiva full-time learning? I have a feeling that the prosperity of the American economy from 1945 through 2008 is part of what made the current phenomenon of the full-time learner-head-of-family-with-parental-support possible. I would be curious to see whether it is sustained over the next 25 years.
This is the problem with sarcastic posts. Oomis now has who to go after, as if that’s really what anyone here blieves.
Oomis – we all know that. Relax. And at the age when a bachur is dating, they are generally not under the watchful eyes of anyone. So that line of reasoning really doesn’t fly.
Re post by oomis that begins “I’ve never met a guy who …”: oomis asks “who will know” if a bochur who leaves yeshiva to work is not putting any time into learning? Well, Dayan Emmes will know, and so will the bochur. I hope oomis is not saying that she does not believe that yeshivas are not doing their job in getting their students into the habit of life-long learning, or if she is, I hope she is wrong.
Bump
Re post by oomis that begins “I’ve never met a guy who …”: oomis asks “who will know” if a bochur who leaves yeshiva to work is not putting any time into learning? Well, Dayan Emmes will know, and so will the bochur. I hope oomis is not saying that she does not believe that yeshivas are not doing their job in getting their students into the habit of life-long learning, or if she is, I hope she is wrong.”
My “who will know” was a rhetorical question, guys. Relax. I was simply saying that some people are apparently afraid that if boys leave Yeshivah’s full time learning, they will somehow never make regular time to learn (and from the boys’ standpoint, who could really know for certain, EXCEPT for themselves and Hashem?).
nfgo3, I was not in any way, shape or form, saying what you inferred from my post. I was expressing my belief that it is sad that there are people who fear that a boy will stop learning once he leaves the Yshivah. If a Yeshiva AND a boy’s family have both done their job, that should not happen.
In honor of my continued frustrating dating experiences, I hereby BUMP this thread!
Have any of my fellow “working singles” seen the light at the end of the tunnel?
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