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I’ll be glad to respond to each point in turn, but let me just answer the quickest one since I have a minute now. Elite and non-Elite are determined collectively, democratically, by those in the shidduch parsha. They vote with their dates (just so thats not misunderstood, its a cute way of saying that you cast a vote when you agree to a date). So Elite is not a judgement on my part, rather an objective result of a democratic process.
“… so obviously somone who wants to learn full time is first class”
Would that this statement were true! I know a sad number of boys who are anything BUT first class, but they are all in Yeshivah full time. First class is in the middos of a person. Derech Eretz kadma l’Torah. Just because someone is learning, does not make him automatically FC. It makes him a full time learner, and he does get props for THAT, though.
So Elite is not a judgement on my part, rather an objective result of a democratic process”
Sorry, but in my humble opinion, there ain’t nuthin’ objective OR Democratic about this process, whatsoEVER. By its very nature, this is a most SUBjective and autocratic process.
BoysWork
Member
Squeak, the problem lies right in your comment. When you call a kollel boy elite and a working boy non-elite. I can show you plenty of working young men who accomplish more by being kovea itim than many, many boys sitting in kollel. Sitting in kollel DOES NOT MAKE ONE ELITE!!
You are fighting the system. That is the problem. Kollel is elite in frum society whether you like it or not. Personally, I agree with you that a man with both Torah and a worthwhile job should be regarded as equal to or better than a boy with only Torah. But you and I have been outvoted.
Change the system or adapt to it. But your current view is only going to hurt you.
oomis
Best Bubby EVER
Hence my comment to go after working girls”
See, I KNEW you did not realize how you sounded, and it was not intentional on your part. You referred to working girls as “setting your sights LOWER” (my emphasis)and that was an extremely disrespectful thing to say about “working” girls, who as I pointed out ARE in fact the ones that these Kollel boys are marrying anyway, no?
Oh I realized and then some. My comment was meant to be cynically referring to non-kollel girls as working girls in the most pejorative sense possible, which is how some kollel types have actually referred to such girls in my presence.
Just because the Elites look down on such girls does not mean that the OP should. But he does. If he considers it setting his sights lower, as I believe he does right now, I suggest he consider them anyway. Because fighting the system isn’t going to get him what he wants.
Change the system or adapt to it. But your current view is only going to hurt you.”
I vote to change it. Trying to adapt to it, has hurt many young people who are just not succeeding in that system in its present form. Likewise, it has hurt the parents of the girls in that system, as they have no golden years to look forward to, because they are too busy trying to support their sons-in-law and daughters, who should have long since been making their OWN way in life. And who will support the NEXT generation of learners, whose own fathers have no financial backing to give them, because they never learned a trade to earn the kind of parnassah that allowed THEM to sit and learn all day.
It is not an either/or situation. There has to be a fundamental compromise, or I predict we will see more and more problems in the next twenty to thirty years.
Change the system or adapt to it. But your current view is only going to hurt you.”
I vote to change it.
That is not very good practical advice to a young man in shidduchim. Squeak’s is.
And who will support the NEXT generation of learners, whose own fathers have no financial backing to give them, because they never learned a trade to earn the kind of parnassah that allowed THEM to sit and learn all day.
The funny thing is, people were saying the exact same thing a generation ago. People will probably be saying the same thing a generation from now.
would it help if i also mention that I’m not looking for a full time learner, but rather someone who is a solid frum guy (ppl tend to think that by working i mean modern- which is sooo off) with middos tovos, someone caring, sensitive toward others, responsible…all that good stuff. when someone asked me what makes me different from all the girls out there, my answer (with confidence to show) was that i’m looking for an earner/learner. they were kinda taken aback, but i was like “does that make me any less frum?????????” i want to be happy in my marriage. i can’t support alone, and my parents can’t afford to support me- even if they could, i wasn’t brought up with such a gross attitude as to expect support from them. i know that if they’d have the means, they would love to support. of course i’ll help support. but i can’t do it alone and be expected to remain so cool calm and collected as i take care of a household, have children…and have to be the supporter myself. it’d stress me out and i wouldn’t have a happy calm household. I think it’s great if a guy realizes that he should help with the support (and did i mention that i also want someone who is machshiv Torah and will set aside time to learn every day? Did i mention that I’m actually frum and want a Torah home, and that I want to bring up children who will grow up having a love for Torah?) I’m looking for you learning guys too. I’ve found a few of you, barely a handful, but i know ur out there so i’m gonna keep looking…
“The funny thing is, people were saying the exact same thing a generation ago.”
The financial situation in Torah communities both in USA and in Israel is no laughing matter.
Any joking that minimizes the urgency to have more solid bread earners in our communities is cruel.
oomis, I dont mean to be offensive but your retorts sound like a kid complaining about how unfair and cliquey of her classmates are. Whether its subjective or objective, right or wrong, fair or no, it is the way it is. The cool kids are the cool kids, and the elites are elite. Accept it or find a way to fix it.
Josh, I wasn’t joking. Doomsday predictions have been given for the kollel system since it began, but there are more people learning in kollel now than ever.
“Change the system or adapt to it. But your current view is only going to hurt you.”
Um. no. it will not hurt me. You know why? Because I don’t care what anyone thinks. I don’t care that people think BMG guys are elite or first class because I know there are many there who are about as lazy and low class as one can get. Zero middos. And as someone else said “Derech Eretz Kadma LeTorah”. Being a mentch is much more important for a girl to look for than a guy who knows another blatt gemara or two.
Ahhhhh the great debate learning vs. working boy!! As a post seminary and Bais Yaakov girl I do think that Torah learning is VERY important yet I do not look down upon someone who is working.
I think that there are many more aspects to a prospective shidduch other then is he learning or working.
There are the bein adam l’makom questions and there are the bein adam l’chavairo questions. For instance… Does he daven with a minyan 3 times a day? How does he treat is roommates/teachers/parents/siblings?
As other members have mentioned a boy could be learning all day every day yet lack crucial midos. While a boy who doesn’t necessarily have what it takes to sit and learn all day is out in the world making a parnassah while still maintaining a focus on his inner self. This definitely a debate that can go on for hours. But just like no 2 snowflakes are alike, no 2 people are alike so everyone needs to think about it for themselves. Girls, Think! Think, do I want a learning/ kollel boy because I truly admire what it means to sit and learn all day or do I want a learning/kollel boy because that’s what all my friends/neighbors are doing? Also do you know what it means to be in KOLLEL!?!?!
BTW- It is not an all or nothing kinda deal- what about the guys that learn half a day and then go to college/work the other half?
Let me point out that, it seems to me, BoysWork and squeak are working under different assumptions.
BoysWork is assuming that there aren’t any girls looking for his a boy of his type.
Squeak is assuming that there are, but that BoysWork isn’t looking for the type of girl who is looking for a boy like him.
This talk about middos, derech eretz, laziness, davening with a minyan, bain odom l’chaveiro, etc., is silly. The girls looking for learning boys aren’t being m’vater on any of that. They want all of that, PLUS he should be learning full time.
(Now watch a bunch of posters take my first sentence out of context and blast me for saying middos aren’t important.)
DY- exactly correct, but let me state both halves (you mentioned one half) . My assumption is that many girls are out there would be well suited to a learner earner as its called, but most of them nevertheless try to get shidduchim with full time learners. Similarly, there are many boys out there who would be suitable for such a girl, but most of those boys (our OP included) see it as settling so they go after the type of girl who doesnt want them.
When ppl ask me what kind of boy i’m looking for, I groan inside cuz I’ve grown so tired of the reactions I get when I tell ppl that I’m looking for a learner-earner…
some examples of what i’m dealing with: (these are ACTUAL responses that i got!!)
“really? so interesting… I really have a much easier time picturing you with a serious learner”
“what? why? you want him to work from day ONE?? your parents can’t even give you one penny???”
“oh… so you want someone that can really learn and is working… so we have to find you an older bachur!”
“so, what if your parents suddenly found a way to support… would you change your mind?”
So now this is confusing! see, ppl *assume* that I am (what squeak refers to as) an “elite”, but I actually want to have divrei torah AND food when I’m sitting at my shabbos table, and I can’t see myself being a functional wife and mother if we’re living on one income and it’s all coming from me!! so I am actually a “working girl” cuz i’m looking for a learner-earner, and so I suddenly fall into the “non-elite” category and people can’t come to terms with it! I believe that there must be men out there that can and do learn on an elite level, are ovdei Hashem, have yiras shomayim, are baal midos, have a rebbi they are close to, etc… but people perceive them as “non-elite” because they ALSO want to have food on their table (and a table for their food, and an apartment for their table etc…) and recognize that a good, functioning wife and mother can’t have the sole responsibility of parnassa!!
So I was thrilled to see Adam’s post!! I’m happy that guys like you do exist!!! Maybe one day I’ll actually meet one…
“but there are more people learning in kollel now than ever.”
But the suffering due to poverty now is much greater than before.
Squeak, if the first half is correct, then the OP, for practical purposes, is correct, because although the right type exist, they won’t go out with him.
My (admittedly limited) experience tells me that there are plenty of girls who describe themselves as hodulashem describes herself, but not too many boys such as the OP describes himself. In other words, the girls feel as if the working boys they go out with are not on their level of Yiddishkeit.
DY both excellent points, and I agree with you. Your second point probably explains your first, and why such girls chase “elites” even if they arent really looking for that. That is precisely what I believe is the cause of the current shidduch crisis. It may be a bitter pill to swallow compared to other explanations that characterize everyone as blameless victims, but unfortunately we are all to blame for the crisis.
Squeak, what it explains, more than anything else, is why a certain type of girl might be left over.
I am not retracting my assertion that there are more girls in the parsha than boys; the demographic equation which I presented (and you haven’t really refuted) is still true.
That doesn’t negate possibility, which I agree to, that there are additional factors at play.
For the most part though, I think the shidduch market has adapted to the mismatch. I think there’s a little game that goes on. If a girl says she wants someone who will “learn forever”, that’s code for a long term (say 5-10 years). If she says she wants 5 years, that means 2-3 years, and if she says 2 years, that means a few months, but he’ll be kovea ittim. For the most part, the boys play along. So the actual “learner earner” type are still in yeshiva, and those rare ones who are actually keeping serious sedorim while holding down a job are in high demand.
“kollel isnt for everyone but it is defiantly number and if a girl cant handle that. she is a lower level.”
Well folks, the above statement just about says it all. Its not that kollel boys are elite, they are just trained to be snobs. Nothing but ga’aveh. A statement like the above shows a total lack of middos, derech eretz, etc. Shame on you.
And who will support the NEXT generation of learners, whose own fathers have no financial backing to give them, because they never learned a trade to earn the kind of parnassah that allowed THEM to sit and learn all day.
Uncle Sam. Until they get sick of supporting generation after generation, and pull the plug, just like in Israel.
oomis, I dont mean to be offensive but your retorts sound like a kid complaining about how unfair and cliquey of her classmates are. Whether its subjective or objective, right or wrong, fair or no, it is the way it is. The cool kids are the cool kids, and the elites are elite. Accept it or find a way to fix it. “
I am not complaining about how unfair ANYTHING is. I don’t believe that it is axiomatic that a boy learning all day is better than one who learns part of the day and works (or is being educated towards a parnassah) the rest of the day. I would argue that it is VERY elite nowadays to be a boy who does it all. It is snobbish to believe that a boy sitting in the Beis Nedrash all day, is finer (read: therefore more desirable as a shidduch) than one who manages to earn AND learn. BTW, there is a difference in meaning between being elite and being “elitist.” The latter is not always a flattering description.
And Squeak, anything that is “the way it is” and probably should not be, because it is hurting a significant segment of a society, ultimately needs to be changed in SOME manner. Otherwise our country leaders would be elected solely by men, some of us would still be picking cotton in the South, and Kollel boys would not have the luxury of learning all day on someone else’s cheshbon, because their wives would for the most part be home raising their children.
Lots of things are “the way” they are. That doesn’t mean they should STAY that way. There was a time when girls did not routinely attend elementary school and high school Yeshivahs, much less Seminary! My mother and my father’s sisters were the children of Rabbonim. The girls ALL attended public school. The boys went to yeshivah. Would you argue that this should have remained the status quo?
You have grown up with a certain mindset, that causes you to see things as either/or, according to what I am reading in your posts. I do not agree that the “either” OR the “or” are correct, just because they exist. However, what you choose for yourself is YOUR choice. I would just like to see more balanced choices available for frum people like yourself who DO recognize that there is chashivus to earning a living for one’s wife and children.
oomis, do not deign to tell me what mindset I grew up with as you could not be more wrong. You are not older than every person in the CR, I’ll remind you. Shidduchim are obviously an emotional issue for the majority of people, so I’ll look past the personal thrust of your responses to me. As I said above, I am being as objective as possible, reporting from a fly on the wall perspective here. I have not endorsed the way things are. Are my observations incorrect? Or is it simply that you wish they were incorrect?
after all the back and forth, the bottom line is:
ARE THERE SHADCHANIM that specialize or dont look down at working boys AND THE GIRLS THAT WANT TO MARRY THEM!
Lets get a list going!
I never looked at working boys as second class. They are first class. They are the ones following the mesorah of thousands of years. They are the ones making a kiddush Hashem on a daily basis, while working in a non-Jewish atmosphere.
I have found that working guys are much stronger in their Judaism than the kollel guy. I don’t know if it’s universal or just my own experience.
edited in order to undelete -29
what kind of girls are the learner-earners looking for?
You edited out some of my post.
Right, that’s what I meant when I said, “edited”
adam3, it’s not simply the attitude towards working guys that needs some adjusting, it’s the attitude towards the concept in general… I can’t believe that I have to defend my decision to marry someone that will help me provide for my children!!! and i’m not talking about providing designer clothing… i’m talking about the basics!
WHO YOU ARE IS WHO YOU GET!
If your a working boy than you’ll get a girl who wants a working boy. There’s no reason to fret, there is someone for everyone! The problem arises when “okay” boys want top of the notch girls… It doesn’t work like that.
what’s a top of the notch girl?
I would describe a top notch girl as solidly hashkofik Bais Yaakov girl, willing to support a husband because she sees the chashivus of Torah.
agree?
I would describe a top notch girl as solidly hashkofik Bais Yaakov girl, willing to support a husband because she sees the chashivus of Torah.
I didn’t read the whole thread, but why are only girls who are willing to support a husband considered “top of the notch?” You do realize how many girls you are excluding with that statement, right?
I would describe a top notch girl as solidly hashkofik Bais Yaakov girl, willing to support a husband because she sees the chashivus of Torah.
According to the Lakewood Shadchanim, the support needs to be up-front, not just a “working girl”. Working girls have children and eventually get worn out. PHD’s will still take care of the home (and themselves) while the boy sits and learns.
Top notch boys deserve to come home to a clean and calm house, where they can relax before going back to night seder. Not taking care of children because the wife needs a break from her 18 hour workday (between work, commute and children).
there are literally HUNDREDS of girls in every out of town city STARVING for a date with boys. here in montreal there are PLENTY of really really good girls who are very much willing to date both learning and working boys. there are no shortage of girls. the boys are just clustered and sitting either in the NY or NJ states while thousands of girls in montreal, toronto, detroit, chicago, los angeles, etc etc are of marriagable age waiting for ONE phonecall.
maybe try an out-of-towner……they’re not SO bad! don’t think girls exist only in new york and lakewood…
hatzlachah!
so I’ll look past the personal thrust of your responses to me”
I am sorry Squeak, if you feel that I am somehow personally admonishing you in some way (or whatever word fits your reaction to what I wrote). I am NOT attacking you in any way. I disagree with your opinion that boys learning all day are the ELITE of Yiddishkeit, unless that is NOT your opinion, but merely your own observation that there ARE people who actually feel this way, in which case it is they with whom I strongly disagree. A boy who can learn AND earn a living, is more elite in my estimation. That’s all. But if I hurt your feelings in some unintended manner, I am sorry.
Sorry, but I’m just not getting this whole conversation. What is “elite of yiddishkeit”?? I think this is a concept that must have been borrowed from secular culture.
There most definitely are different categories of people in Klal Yisrael. A Kohen is not the same as a Levi. A man is not the same as a woman. A boy under 13 years of age is not the same as a 40 year old man. Etc. But what is “elite”? Each of us is granted a different Neshama with different kishronos, and life experiences tailor made for the advancement and fulfillment of that Neshama. A young lady looking for a life’s partner must have the maturity to do a cheshbon hanefesh and determine what lifestyle is best suited to her aspirations and capabilities. Within that category- learning boy, working boy, or other type of boy, she should look for someone that she finds compatible. Yes, seeing the chashivus of Torah is of paramount importance in a Jewish home. But there are different paths to achieving that goal.
HKB”H is the only One who can bestow upon someone the title of “Elite.”
Which may be the reason for “Olam hafuch ra’isi.”
oomis,
I thought it was clear that I was referring to the collective opinion, aka popular opinion. Not my opinion, not yours. The elite is defined by who or what “the people” are striving to get. In todays age it is learners (boys) and supporters (girls). People who disagree are simply people who were outvoted. I didnt vote for Obama, but he is still the president in this reality. I don’t know any way to make this more clear to you.
i totally agree with Adam3. i have a family member who is looking for a guy just like you. i believe that girls are brain washed at various schools. It is hard to find a shadchan who knows boys who are working/learning or going to college. But i guess we have to remain strong & keep doing our hishtadlus & keep reaching out to people explain what we are looking for & at the right moment it will happen like a flash.
you have to believe that there is someone out there for everyone!
it’s not easy, but we have to keep going & try our best to be positive. you are not doing anything wrong in what you are doing. you are being the best you in avodas Hashem!
like a lot of singles, boys & girls alike, hoping you all find your barshert quickly!!
In Baltimore (google a list) there are shadchanim who deal with learner/earners bec of Ner Yisroel which is fabulous!
also in Queens bec of Chofetz Chayim & Lander College.
i once googled a list of shadchanim & on that list were a couple of names who deal primarily with learner/earners!! Hatzlocha!!!
shishi. i do NOT agree
“I would describe a top notch girl as solidly hashkofik Bais Yaakov girl, willing to support a husband because she sees the chashivus of Torah.”
solidly hashkofik? yes.
sees the chashivus of Torah? yes.
willing to support a husband? that makes a top notch girl??? no! what if there’s a solidly hashkofik bais yaakov girl that is not CAPABLE of supporting a husband… let’s say her parents are not in a financial position to help her out to that extent, and she is still working on her degree, and her current earnings are going toward her college tuition?
a top notch girl is someone that is willing to let her parents empty their pockets for x amount of years because she sees the chashivus hatorah? what about midos? what about kibud av v’eim? what about acting like a mentch?? what about chessed? what about living like a yid!! what about implementing all that torah learning into your life and into your children?!?!
I have a friend who’s father agreed to support for 2 years… she got married, moved to israel, and guess how she and her husband spent their evenings?? watching movies!!!!!!! I know that that is not the norm… but my point is that in my opinion, you can have a top notch girl that has solid hashkafos but is not “willing” to support a full time learner… but I don’t think it’s very “top notch” if a girl is someone “willing” to support and does not live according to those hashkafos… willing to support is based on having the resources to be able to support…
The girls that I know that have Daddies with $$$ and have their knees covered only because their shaitels are longer than their skirts, were very willing to support because they “saw chashivus hatorah” when they were dating… top notch? i think not.
that being said, I don’t think there’s any basis or any point in judging or ranking people in their level of yiddishkeit… and of course my opinions are a product of my experiences… and of course this post turned into a venting session for me because no, I am not capable of supporting financially… But I do want my home to be built on Torah and I hope to support my husband in his learning in every other way that I can…
Hodula, I think we sometimes move in the same circles.
“Their knees covered only because their shaitels are longer than their skirts…”
That is a great observation.
You should start a new thread on that topic.
You already know I’m not into the whole “elite yiddishkeit” discussion. But an “elite sheitel” discussion might be in order.
The elite is defined by who or what “the people” are striving to get”
Well, I guess my problem with this idea is the fact that I question the implication that a majority of frum Jews are striving for this. Who are “the people” to whom you refer? Not every frum Yid is Yeshivish frum, not all Yeshivish frum people want to necessarily redt shidduchim to boys who want solely to learn all day and not be mefarneis their wives and children (and they don’t consider them to be the “elite”), and not all Jewish people are frum altogether.
“The freezer just opened and I am too busy for guys like you now. When I have more time I will be in touch”. I am shocked!
I don’t find that particularly weird. The BMG boys are seasonal, and tomorrow is literally ?? ????. Meanwhile, you could have called him two weeks ago, and can call next week.
It’s like if you would call an accountant on April 14th and ask him to do something other than file your tax return. He’ll say: “tomorrow is April 15th, and I’m way to busy filing tax returns to do something that isn’t time sensitive; call me next week.”
Anyone want to provide names/ numbers of shadchanim that deal with such type of boys?
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