Working Guys

You are 100% correct.

You are not second class at all!

But it will take a while for the narrowminded

to become broad minded..

This learning boy ‘mishigaas’ will disappear when

girls will finally realize they should be marrying someone

suitable for themselves and not for the neighbor,street, or community!

I AGREE

Nu, so the bjj and hadar graduates wont consider you. Youre barking up the wrong tree. Working guys need to set their sights lower, say for working girls.

ihear: You are missing a big point! If one goes to college and takes out student loans, he would have to work at least part-time to pay up loans. Plus, some professions pretty much require you to start working entry-level, right after you graduate. If you don’t, there will be a major hole in your job resume later on. The OP is 27. Yes, at 23, he fit the standard because he was in yeshiva and college. Now, 4 years later, he is at a point in his career where he has to work at least part-time. He should stay in yeshiva until he gets enagged just so that he can go out with a good girl who is looking for a guy like him but is scared that her friends will stigmatize and she will think she’s “settling” for a sub-par guy. Ridiculous!

I know many learner-earners that learn AND earn better than full-time learners who are only there to go with the flow. Those guys are NOT better than a solid learner-earned. Solid learner-earners exist, because I am one of them!

In Pirkei Avos, it says that “Yafeh Talmud Torah im Derech Eretz” because it leaves no time for sin. One of those sins is bitul torah. HOW TRUE! If you are a serious learner-earner, you won’t have time to be involved with shtusim like movies and TV shows. The system is terribly flawed, and I feel terrible for adam3. May you find your zivug soon!

-Another learner-earner.

I agree with sem613- don’t know where you are looking for girls- but we are here and that is what alot of us are looking for…

Also, most girls don’t understand that it has to do with age- if a guy who is 21/22 and is working and has been since they were 20/21- is different then a guy who is 23, has a set Seder, and works/ in college- alot of people don’t differentiate based on age (which they should) and just give a blanket learner/earner etc.

Adam3 and friend in Flatbush- keep looking- girls who get that do exist

Dear fIF,

I totally hear what u are saying about loans and jobs that require immediate entry and there are ways to deal with that issue maybe stop school a semester early that solves both issues I know that was my eitza that way loans don’t take effect till 6 months after u finish school and a job isn’t required till u full finish

2)where did I imply solid earner learner don’t exist actually quite the contrary I said that adam3 seemed better then many guys I know

Adam, I personally know of a couple of wonderful girls in monsey for you. Not sure how you can contact me, perhaps the moderators can help.

Also, a message to squeak – working guys need to set their sights lower? Seriously?? I can show you plenty of working guys who learn a lot more every day, than quite a few who are warming the benches at BMG. It was a disgusting comment.

Adam, I am totally with you. None of my friends wants a boy who does not earn a parnassah, for their daughters. They want boys who learn every day, but who are realistic enough to understand the concept in ein kemach ein Torah, and to recognize that not all parents are able to provide great financial support, even were they willing to do so. Hang in there. The right girl will recognize your worth. Clearly you have been dealing with the wrong shadchanim.

maybe a shadchan can start specializing in “working” boys.

the fathers that are my age were all Torah Vodaas types that went to college at night, and kept sedarim after they started working. and they are all still keeping sedarim. but their DAUGHTERS ALL WANT LEARNERS??

i thought girls want to marry boys like their fathers?

but their DAUGHTERS ALL WANT LEARNERS??

Sem or Niskatnu HaDoros, take your pick.

so the solution is as shtusim mentioned- there need to be shadchanim focusing on working boys. and if the working boys go to them, and then the girls who want working boys go to them, iyH we will have shidduchim.

so where are these working boys shadchanim?

i think a part of the problem is the brainwashing semineries do to the girls telling them they must marry a learning guy ! thats ludacris !! every single guy and girl are differant and have diff needs ! not all girls need learning guys !

wallflower 🙂

the fathers that are my age were all Torah Vodaas types that went to college at night, and kept sedarim after they started working”

So was my father Z”L, and he was a great Talmid Chochom. He never missed a day of learning, but worked full time since he was a young man.

Adam3, thank you for posting such an important message!! I completely agree with you and if anybody tries to tell you anything different, please ignore them. It’s obvious that you have a sense of responsibility because you’re looking ahead and seeing what everybody else doesn’t see or is trying to ignore. I myself hope to marry a working boy. There are plenty of girls like me who wish for the same thing but are afraid to voice it because thy know they’ll be looked down upon. We can’t change society but everyone can change themselves and one thing we all need to work on is to see people for who they are instead of questioning if they fit the mold or not. Adam3, I’m sure the right one will come along soon and you’ll be very happy together. Wishing you luck in all your endeavors.

Smile19, is this a dating website?

Adam,

I think I have an outstanding responsible girl for you who shares your values.

Anyway I can get your info?

There are many girls looking for solid working guys. Skip the shadchanim, talk to people you know.

*kapusta*

Just saw the reactions to my post and I am a tad surprised, but thats OK. One of the things I always liked about my posts is the many different levels on which they could be understood.

The attitudes here are endemic of the shidduch crisis. I have said all along that the crisis needs to be understood through game theory. At the center of the crisis are the “elites”, i.e. the 22-24 year old boys who want to learn and be supported, and the 19-21 year old girls who have been taught to be machshiv torah to the exclusion of all else and have a plan for parnassa. Everyone else falls into other categories. Yet it is common for the non-elites to insist on marrying elites, and to consider marrying someone in their own category to be “settling”. As we have here with a working man who is also the wrong age, who feels that he should be dating the same girls that the most elite boys date, and expects the shadchanim dealing with such boys to treat him the same.

The result is a profound lack of equilibrium, since the number of elites is obviously far less than the number of both elites and non-elites on the other side. A shadchan who wants to succeed has to focus on elites almost exclusively, since non-elites are barely sought after even by other non-elites. So it is not surprising that boys are the focus of shadchanim, because the criteria for elite boys is far more objective than for elite girls. Nor is it surprising when a boy identifies himself as non-elite and finds no one interested in him. It is not a reflection on him but on his society and his values.

Hence my comment to go after working girls. Non elites can win at this game by striving for their own equilibrium, i.e. by looking for non-elites and avoiding the channels that the OP is focusing on. Chasing the elite pool of girls is to his own detriment (not to mention that it directly worsens the shidduch crisis).

Since we’re naming theories these days, you can call this one the Squeaquilibrium Theory of the Shidduch Crisis. Maybe if I had named mine back in the beginning it would have gotten as much attention as the more infamous one.

Hence my comment to go after working girls”

See, I KNEW you did not realize how you sounded, and it was not intentional on your part. You referred to working girls as “setting your sights LOWER” (my emphasis)and that was an extremely disrespectful thing to say about “working” girls, who as I pointed out ARE in fact the ones that these Kollel boys are marrying anyway, no?

ALL girls who choose to marry learning boys, must of necessity go out to earn the parnassah. SOMEONE has to. Maybe, following your logic and choice of language, these girls should set their sights “higher” and look for emesdig Torah boys who have a plan to earn a real living, and not look at that as a negative. When did “b’zayas apecha totzi lechem” become assur?

I think it’s time for ALL shadchanim to amend their priorities and realize that things are just not working out so well anymore, based on how they are redting shidduchim. The first and most important thing to look at, is the boy right for the girl in most of the important ways that make marriages strong, and then look at the learning issue. A good boy or girl is a good boy or girl.

oomis – Will not happen. Period. As long as girls go to Bais Yaakov type Sems, girls will continue to be pushed that they are failures if they don’t marry Kollel.

And yes, this is one (of many, but one of the biggest) reasons why I feel that Israeli sems are destroying Yiddishkeit. (Since the conversation went this way).

gavra – I don’t disagree with most of what you are saying, but you are painting with a very broad brush. How many seminaries have you actually attended? How many seminaries have your close friends actually attended? Is this another one of those “I know 10 girls from NY who think this way from their sem year” so it must be that this is the curriculum? Your points are good, stick with them instead of getting lost in the “down with sem” fan club.

Syag – I specifically qualified my statement (regarding Kollel) to Bais Yaakov type sems. The other sems may not have that issue, but certainly do have others. If you want to discuss further, I’m willing on a new thread.

wow. keepitcoming. you are saying that any guy whos working can’t be learning part time???

let me tell you a story about a family member of mine: He is 23 and not yet in shidduchim. He plans on finishing his college degree first so he can support his family. but while finishing his college degree he: wakes up vaskin, learns first seder and goes to a shiur, finishing with mincha somehwere around 3 I think. He then goes to college for a few hours, and then returns to the beis midrash for 2 hours of night seder. that is about 9 hours a day of learning. You are telling me that he is a second class citizen because he is planning on supporting his family at the loss of what, 2 hours, from your average kollel guy?

it is very possible for a guy to have learning Torah be his main priority, but also supporting his family. And they realize that it does take a few years to do the training. so waiting until you have no money for food to start the schooling, leaving your family without any income for 3 years, is not that great an idea.

Most of these working guys we’re discussing haven’t just written off learning, they have at least one seder/shiur every day.

regarding girls who don’t want kollel guys being on a lower level:

I’m going to give more information here about myself than I usually do, because I am such a strong believer in this:

I plan on going into Chinuch, because that is a dream of mine. It doesnt pay well to put it mildly. my parents are not able to support me/my family. If I marry a kollel guy, within a few years he’s going to need to start working because I will not be making enough money changing Jewish childrens’ lives to support us. I recognize that its not fair for me to take a guy who could be the next rosh yeshiva and make him work. You’re still saying that I’m on a lower level for recognizing that?

I’m not saying no to a kollel guy because I’m selfish and want to live in a big house. I will be perfectly fine living in an apartment, but I need the money to buy that apartment, and for that he needs to work.