Working frowned upon in Yeshivos?

“Staying in yeshiva” does not guarantee anyone’s hashkofos. What ultimately matters is what someone does while in yeshiva, and whether they are fulfilling the advice in Pirkei Avos, ??? ?? ??.

If someone “just gets by” in yeshiva, the environment has limited impact on him, and this bochur allows himself to be impressed by anything he chooses. While this can be the hadracha of the yeshiva and its hanhala, it can also be the exposure to anything and everything else. If we fail to ignite the passion for Avodas Hashem in favor of the academic achievements in learning, we can easily lose such talmidim to the enticements and attractions of the outside world. It is incumbent on all mechanchim of all levels to address that pintele in each and every talmid so that they will progress in their appropriate track of Avodas Hashem (???? ???? ?? ?? ????). We can then be zocheh to retain these talmidim as ????? ???”?, regardless of where they spend their time, in yeshiva or the working world.

I once heard a great quote from a barely Frum YU guy: “YU is where you go if you want to go to college and stay Frum”. Unless you are actually in Yeshivah half a day or plan on going to college together with a very dedicated group of close friends, it is very difficult to stay Frum in a secular college. But so long as one of those two conditions are met, it can be done.

We do pasken like R’ Nehorai.

I don’t show contempt for people who don’t think like me.

I show contempt for the arrogance of those who think they know how to learn a piece of gemara better than our gedolim (not for them, for their arrogance).

that we shouldn’t marry the daughter of a working man, “

Well, who else is going to support them, then?

ROB- thanks for your comments and assumptions. we disagree with you.

ROB- thanks for your comments and assumptions. we disagree with you.

Toi, The kollelleit don’t even fulfill the requiremnts of the kesuba, which includes support. It is the man’s responsibility to support the wife, not the other way. I guess you disagree with the kesubah also.

ROB wrote: “Second- please go and have a secret vote amongst all the mothers who have , Beli Ayin Horah, six ,seven kids and go to work while their husbands smoke away in various kollelim- not knowing what they are actually doing, and then come back to me with the results. Only then will I retract my assertion about the amjority of women not wanting tp be “mocheL” their husbands.”

ROB – I am a kollel wife of numerous kids B”H, and I am not saying it is easy but nothing in life (this world at least) is easy or meant to be – torah (and olam haba) are acquired through (HAPPY) mesirus nefesh! You can ask my peers as well as myself and we’ll tell you that we truly feel loads of simcha despite (maybe because of) the fact that it’s hard!

I work as well, READILY and WANT to do so even though I’m past the idealism stage and have many kids ka”H. I see my husband is like a fish in water when he’s with seforim, and he helps out whenever he is home or when I need him (as I said, with lots of kids and I work…) – however, while I’ll agree it is stressful at times, even at some point on most days, I wouldn’t trade it for anything in the world!

That being said, I have seen many women who are washed out and don’t have that simcha and the guy does seem clueless or couldn’t care less (often seen with wives of balabatim as well) and that is just outright bad middos and lack of sensitivity and pashut wrong whether they’re in kollel or working…but don’t blame Torah for that, post a thread on bad middos and people who are insensitive!!

@DY I hear your taina about mechila. My R’Y seems to have held that such a mechila is not valid in this situation – maybe he meant in a situation where the wife isn’t making enough to support the family it doesnt work? To be honest I am not sure why.

ROB, there is no machlokes, hence the halachah can be like both. One can’t arbitrarily avoid his obligation to teach a profession, but can be mechanech his son in Toraso umnaso.

Your assumptions that the entire yeshivah world, with the encouragement of its gedolim, is in blatant violation of halachah is insulting, arrogant, and ignorant.

You are not better informed than them.

@DY

He was referring to wives being moichel on that aspect on the kesuba if the husband isnt working. I am assuming he meant in a situation where the family doesnt have enough money to live off of from just the wife working ie. when they have a bunch of kids.

musser – some of us wives make an agreement to be our husband’s zevulun and fargin the kesuba

as an aside, it’s a pretty paltry sum to make that a strong argument in this discussion…

I know it will cause sparks among women on the thread, but according to halacha any money we make goes to our husbands anyway (discuss with your LOR for ways around that if necc)- so regardless they’d have to fulfill the kesuba based on the money and items we bring into the marriage…

dveykus613: I don’t now you or your husband and you may be one of the exceptions. Please note that the many arguments against your way of life is addressed to the assumption that everyone-just everyone – should follow that way-and that has the seeds of tragedy. No one has ever denied that individuals should continue on this path.The arguemnt is about the masses.

DaasYochid, if you’re referring to Feif Un, you have it wrong.

He was pretty much OTD while still in yeshiva. One of the Roshei Yeshiva wanted to expel him, but the highest RY there told the other one to let him stay, because after the year was over he’d want to leave anyway, and he wasn’t influencing anyone else – he kept things to himself.

If anything, it was in college (where I first met him), that he became more frum. He had some extremely bad experiences in yeshiva which made him not want to be frum. One of them was being told some of the same things I was told – that college guys can’t be frum. He asked the Rebbe if that meant his (Feif Un’s, not the Rebbe’s) parents weren’t frum, since they went to college, and he was punished for being chutzpadik.

Feif Un “dared” to ask the questions that yeshiva guys are not supposed to ask – he dared to ask “Why?” and he was ridiculed for it. For a religion that supposedly encourages questions, the right-wing yeshiva system is certainly doing a great job of doing the opposite. That was what drove Feif Un OTD. It started when he was in elementary school, and got worse over the years. In college, he realized that you can be a good Jew and not be sitting and learning all day, and decided to give it another try. That’s a big part of why Feif Un is so adamantly against chareidi Judaism – because he saw the hypocrisy in it, and their willingness to throw those who don’t fit into their system to the wayside.

In case you’re wondering, yes, I did check with Feif Un before posting this stuff about him, and he gave me the ok.

WOW!! I am truly shocked at some of the comments here. Some people are commenting that ‘you cannot be in a college and stay frum’. These are the same people that believe that no one should ever go to work. Until you actually took a course in a college you cannot make your assumption. Second, there are MANY from college programs such as COPE, TTI, ETC that offer a frum environment for Jewish college students. Tuoro College even offers separate classes for men and women. So to all those people that agree with R Altusky, your ignorance is awesome.

My second point is that once someone ‘makes it’ in the business world, the Yeshiva’s come running after them for money. Yes, the same Yeshiva that told him that he would never be frum because he went to college…..

DaMoshe, thanks for covering a lot of the ground. I’ll shed some more light on what happened in my case.

When I was in elementary school (it was the first day of 6th grade), as DaMoshe posted, I once said something about wanting to go to college. The Rebbe replied (in front of the entire class), “College? Only shkutzim go to college! You’re going to sit in kollel!”

I went home that night, and my parents asked me, “How was the first day of school?” I told them, “Apparently Tatty is a sheigitz, and Mommy is a shiksa!” The principal got an interesting phone call that night!

he next day, my Rebbe confronted me, and told me I was chutzpadik for telling my parents what he said. I was thrown out of class. The Rebbe repeatedly embarrassed me publicly throughout the school year.

When I was in 9th grade, I had a Rebbe who would also humiliate me. He told me he was doing it to make me a better masmid. Other kids in the class picked up on it, and I had a miserable year. I decided that if that was what went into being a masmid, I wanted no part of it.

Throughout high school, I didn’t really try to learn very much. I switched schools after 9th grade because I refused to go back to the yeshiva I’d been in. I got excellent grades in my general studies, but barely passed any tests in Gemara, I constantly skipped seder, etc. I was in a dormitory, which was closely watched, so there wasn’t much opportunity for other things. When we had an off-weekend, I’d go out and meet up with girls. I wasn’t careful about various things like Shabbos and kosher. I didn’t do things openly, but if I forgot to shut my alarm clock on Friday, I’d turn it off on Shabbos, or I’d adjust the AC in the summer if I needed to. I didn’t wait between eating meat and dairy at all – if I wanted a chocolate bar 10 minutes after a burger, I ate it.

After high school, my parents convinced me to spend one year in beis medrash. The Rosh Yeshiva caught on to what was going on, and decided to have a talk with me. At first he wanted to expel me, but his boss (the top RY) wouldn’t let him. When he heard I was going to go to college, suddenly he wanted me to stay. He told me, “If you go to college, you’re flushing your whole life down the toilet! You’ll never be a good Jew in college, because college doesn’t go together with being a frum Jew. You could learn all you want, but if you’re in college, it doesn’t matter – you can’t stay frum!”

I told him I definitely wasn’t staying in yeshiva, and that was that. I decided that if nothing I did would matter, then I might as well enjoy myself, so I completely let go. No more Shabbos, no more kosher, I started dating a girl who was in a sorority.

I went to Touro College only because they had a good program for what I wanted, and it fit with my (part time) work schedule. I made some friends there (including DaMoshe!) who were nice, Modern Orthodox people. I was also coasting my way through half a day of yeshiva at the time only to get the college credits. After some time, I realized that I wasn’t any happier than I’d be in yeshiva. I saw that a lot of my college friends seemed very happy and fulfilled with their lives, so I decided to give Judaism a try again – but not the yeshivish version. That’s how I went into the Modern Orthodox philosophy.

That’s just a condensed version. There are more details, but this is all I can write right now. College doesn’t make people go OTD. They go OTD because they don’t have a firm foundation in Judaism. That can happen anywhere – even in yeshiva.

musser – some of us wives make an agreement to be our husband’s zevulun and fargin the kesuba

Fargin all you want. How many are taking from the govt, food stamps, wic? Is the govt a zevulon too?

Toi-when did I ever stand up for the Women of the Wall? Where did I ever admire their passion for tefillin? Plese do not misrepresent my views.

Rambam (Matanot Aniyim 10:18): One should avoid taking from people if at all possible, even if he must suffer. He should not impose on the Tzibur to support him. Chachamim commanded to make Shabbos Chol rather than take Tzedakah. Even if a respected Chacham became poor, he should not take from people. One should not say ‘I am a Chacham, or a Kohen – support me!’ Great Chachamim chopped wood, carried beams, drew water, or were smiths rather than request from the Tzibur. They did not accept offers of money.

Rashbam (Bava Batra 110a DH v’Tol): One might have thought that it disgraces Torah if a Chacham does menial work, just like if he has a stain on his garment. Rav taught Rav Kahana that it is not a disgrace.

2. Rambam (ibid. 19): If one cannot survive without taking, e.g. he is old, sick or afflicted, but he is too haughty to take, he is responsible for his own death. The pain he inflicted on himself is a sin. If one needs to take but rather lives a life of hardship to avoid imposing himself on the Tzibur, before he dies he will support others from his money. About such people it says “Baruch ha’Gever Asher Yivtach ba’Shem”.

(Source: Yerushalmi Sof Pe’ah, brought in R. Shimshon Sof Pe’ah.)

Rambam (Perush ha’Mishnayot Avot 1:13): One who intentionally is financed by and benefits from Torah will die. A Chacham may be served only by his Talmidim.

Rambam (ibid. 4:5 and Hilchot Talmud Torah 3:10): If one plans to learn Torah, not work and receive Tzedakah, this is Chilul Hashem and a disgrace to Torah. He harms himself and removes his life from the world to come, for it is forbidden to benefit from Torah in this world. Chachamim taught that one should love work and despise positions of authority. Any Torah not accompanied by work will not endure; in the end he will rob people. It is a mistake to think that people or communities are obligated to support people who learn Torah all day.

In every generation there have been very poor and very rich people. Surely, the rich were willing to give to the poor! Rather, the poor preferred to subsist on their meager incomes. Chachamim like Hillel and R. Chanina ben Dosa were very poor. They saw that it would be Chilul Hashem to take money from people, lest Torah be cheapened in people’s eyes, i.e. Torah would look like a profession from which people finance themselves. Karna drew water, and was a judge. He would ask the litigants to get someone to draw in place of him or pay him what he will lose in the time he judges them.

R’ Yonatan ben Amram was insistent not to be supported due to his Torah.

The Torah allows a Chacham to give money to people and they will give to him profit earned through it. Also, we may declare that no one may sell until the Chacham sells his merchandise, for merchants themselves often grant this to someone they want to honor even if he is not a Chacham. Chachamim are exempt from taxes and certain obligations such as building the wall around the city. The Gemara says that one who wants to benefit from others like Elisha may do so. This means to occasionally accept lodging or a meal, but not regular stipends! (Here, there is an expectation that a talmid hakham will support himself through comemrcial activity).

Shulchan Aruch (OC 156:1): After learning one should go to his occupation, for any Torah not accompanied by work will not endure. In the end it will cause sin; poverty will make him transgress Hashem’s will.

Bet Yosef (DV v’Achar): One might have thought that it is better to learn Torah constantly. The Mishnah (Avot 2:2) teaches unlike this, for when his money runs out he will need to pursue income and will not even be able to fix times for Torah.

(YD 255:1): One should avoid taking Tzedakah if at all possible, even if he must suffer. Chachamim commanded to make Shabbos Chol rather than take Tzedakah

Bi’ur Halakha (DH Sofah): Most people should work. However, there are always a minority of individuals who can adopt R. Shimon bar Yochai’s approach (Berachot 35b), to devote themselves totally to Torah and Hash-m will help them find income. In particular, if there are people willing to supply his needs so he can learn he need not work, just like Yisachar, who was supported by Zevulun.

This has been grossly distorted. We’d all say that there ought to be professional rabbis. Talmidei hakhamim that are our rebbeim, teachers, kiruv rabbanim, posekim, maggidei shiur, havrutot, tutors, soferim, shochtim, mashgichim, mohalim, etc. But, the Hafetz Hayyim held like the Rambam. He insisted on not being a burden on others. He opened a general store, and supervised the absolute accuracy of the weights and measures, the quality of the merchandise, and the fairness of the prices, to make certain that no one was deceived or overcharged in any way. He not only supported himself honorbaly while becoming one of the greatest gaonim to walk our earth, but also did so ethically, honorably, and justly. What a lesson for those who insist that they cannot work, and for those who are crooked. Indeed, as we see Haredim living in poverty in Israel, the barrage of fraud, scandals, crookedness, and deceit that accompanies such a lifestyle inevitably follows, and we sadly see those results today, causing HaShem’s name to be desecrated and the Torah to become an object of mockery and scorn among the millions of secular Israelis who are divorced from traditional Judaism. How sad is that?

I’m not really involved in this thread because I’m not at all holding in this discussion, but I would just like to point out one thing: There is a massive difference between a bad system and a system with morons in bad places. I don’t think the Yeshivish world as a whole has anything against working people. I think that some people are morons and think this and unfortunately some of those morons are in teaching/administrative positions. If the Yeshivish world has one failing in this area, it is its unwillingness to admit that these morons exist and to remove them when necessary.

Everybody is different. Different people need differnt paths in life.

There is no correct path for everyone. For some people the Kollel path is the correct way and for others trade path and others College and then a profession.

You cant paskin from an internet blog and say one rav is correct or incorrect without knowning the individual

GAW- i was making the point. youre right.

edit- GAW- if you really had the proper haarachah of a good cookie, youd understand.

rob- guess i misremembered.

rebdoniel: thanks for the very thorough quotes of the gemoro and rishonim on this matter. Thre is more but you have made a great effort! Thanks!

rebdoniel: thanks for the very thorough quotes of the gemoro and rishonim on this matter. There is more but you have made a great effort! Thanks!

edit- GAW- if you really had the proper haarachah of a good cookie, youd understand.

🙂 Its a question of Mekomo V’Shayto. Perhaps this sale is taking place at the Siyum Hashas.

rebdoniel – the same rambam that says that also says that one who works should spend 3 hours a day working and 9 hours a day learning (will ask husband for exact location of that quote if you’d like) – find me non-kollel guys in this day & age who actually do that.

Besides for that, it’s you and several others in this forum versus all the main gedolim in the last 50 years!! I have heard that it’s a horaas sha’ah in order for torah to survive in our generation(s) before mashiach since it’s become such a “filthy” world out there, but even if I “heard wrong” I don’t believe we have enough personal daas torah to argue with some of the greatest torah minds of the last generation or two who surely know what the torah would say is best for our generation, and they surely know all the sources you quoted better that you & I. Agreed it is not for everybody, and that some pathetic people (not the gedolim) clearly push their agendas in ways that cannot be called proper middos or good chinuch (and often sadly quite the opposite) but that’s not to say the idea isn’t correct for those who could pull it off