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DY – A part of the Kesef Mishna you did not quote:
Ein safek shemi shechanano hashem yisborach sheyisparnes memelachti ASSUR lo litol.
Kesef Mishna
Gam ki nodeh shehalacha kdivrei rabeinu bperush hamishna efsher shehiskimu kein kol chachmei hadoros mishum eis laasos lashem heferu sorasecha.
Kesef Mishna
Please translate the word HEFERU!
because your debate with Reb E about the Rambam has nothing to do with status of pt working boys and shidduchim
Nah, I think he thinks he made a point about how working boys are now equal to learning boys because of covid, but it’s not very sensible. See bp27’s response.
the Rambam refers to the case where someone is in a kolel and supported from the tzedakah there only currently one who wants to be a morah haroah should take advantage of.
We don’t pasken like that.
Duvidf, you’re being pedantic. For whatever reason, whether it’s the ikar hadin or because of eis la’asos (he adds that possibility even if the ikar hadin is like that Rambam, but seems to hold it actually isn’t) the fact is it’s muttar and therefore proper.
Would you similarly argue that someone who learns Torah sheba’al peh from a sefer is doing something wrong since it’s only muttar because of eis la’asos Lashem heferu?
DY, according to you what is the psak?
Reb Eliezer: according to you what is the psak?
while I am also curious, I have to admit this is an unfair question. Actual psak could – and should – be different for different people.
I recall being in a class by a University Rav, who mentioned that he gets asked every year whether it is “mutar” to take a class “Comparative Religions”, that goes thru all kinds of avodah zarah.
Students: “nu, what’s the halakhah?”
Rav: “what do you mean? there is no one halakhah, depends who is asking. For some people who can get affected by all these images, it is asur; for others, who might go into academia and need to know how to talk to people artound them, it is mutar.
Students: <stunned by the idea that halakhah is different for different people – after memorizing so much “certain halakhah” in yeshiva high schools>DY >> it’s muttar and therefore proper.
Here is SY YD 246:21 REMA, Sefaria translation:
first, the benefits of working and learning, tell me you are not envious:
A person should not think to engage in Torah and to acquire wealth or honor with the learning, for one who ventures to think such a thought will not achieve the crown of Torah… make his Torah fixed and his work contingent, and should reduce business and engage in Torah…work all day for his livelihood if he does not have enough to eat, and the rest of the day and the night he should engage in Torah. ..great quality to generate one’s sustenance from the work of his hands …2) scary threats, are you not afraid?
Anyone who puts in his mind occupying himself with Torah and not working, but supporting himself from tz’dakah, behold, this one desecrates the Divine name and dishonors the Torah. .. it attracts sin and he winds up robbing people.3) now what is mutar, tell me which category you belong to below – old, sick, Rav of the city, very poor talmid haham, get [direct?] donations from sponsors, unable to provide for yourself and learn at the same time (according to most lenient of lenient opinions – use this one if you always follow lenient oipinions, of course)
an elder or a sick person [AAQ – better to be paid for Torah than get Medicaid]
some say that it is permitted even for a healthy person…
Rav of the city has an income and provisions
sage who needs it, but for a wealthy person it is prohibited.
some are more lenient, saying that it is permitted for a sage and his students to accept subsidies from those who donate ..
Nevertheless, one who is able to provide for himself well from the work of his own hands and to engage in Torah, it is a pious quality and a gift of God, but this is not the nature of all persons, for it is impossible for everyone to engage in Torah and to become wise in it and to provide for himself by himself.AAQ, I’m confused. The Shulchan Aruch was addressed. If someone wants to learn and the only possible way is to accept money from others, it is okay and proper, as the Biur Halacha explicitly says on that Shulchan Aruch. This fits with the Kesef Mishnah’s commentary on the Rambam.
I’m not sure what a Sefaria translation of the Shulchan Aruch already discussed adds to the conversation.
Nowadays, it is very rare for someone to be able to learn without taking a stipend of some sort. Therefore, as Rav Moshe writes, if someone says they will be stringent like the Rambam and will therefore not be able to learn as much or as well, they are following the advice of the yetzer hora.
Reb Eliezer, I believe this answers your question as well.
DY, I know that you are driven my the above Biur Halacha but I interpret it for wanting to be a moreh haroah or the father in law willing to support his son in law, otherwise the tzibbur is not mechiyav to support him for sitting and learning.
DY, according to your interpretation of Reb Moshe, everyone should sit and learn as it is impossible to learn as much or as well when going to work.
See the end of that teshuva where he indeed wants there to be many supporters of Torah so that there should be many talmidei chachomim.
DY, look at the end of the teshuva emphasizing halacha and baalei haroah.
He does not make that a t’nai.
DY >> Nowadays, it is very rare for someone to be able to learn without taking a stipend of some sort
This is known as “true Scotsman fallacy” (true Scotsman does X. What about someone who does not do X? He is not a true Scotsman). How about Israelis in Hesder yeshivot? People who come to learn before and after work. Everyone on this board who disagree with you?
there are lots of other questions, here are some:
how do you know you are “not able to work and learn”. Did you try?do you make any extra efforts to avoid pitfalls mentioned by SA? Robbery? Hillul Hashem? Dishonoring Torah? (Borrowing R Avigdor Miller’s analogy: if you go into fire to save a child, you will still get burns).
If you have to receive tzedokah, you have to be careful how you spend it. Do you buy extras that are not needed for your learning? Did you buy a $100 esrog? if you have a computer and an hour to spend on this board, maybe you could find an hour to work and reduce amount of tzedoka that you receive?
What is the source of your “stipend”? consider large amounts of government subsidies that non-working Jews take directly or indirectly. This is different from having a Jewish community supporting Torah. Is there a source for that?
They can sit and learn, take a stipend but I am not mechuyav to support but a kolel in our neighborhood set up to generate moreh horaoh yunge leit, I support.
DY:
“Would you similarly argue that someone who learns Torah sheba’al peh from a sefer is doing something wrong since it’s only muttar because of eis la’asos Lashem heferu?”
Would you similarly argue that now that Esther married a non jew because of Eis Laasos it is now muttar (and according to you proper) to marry a non jew?
When we say Eis Laasos and something becomes temporarily muttar or even proper for that moment that is in NO WAY coming to change the Torah value system or principles.
And yes there is very much of the Torah shebaal peh Takanah that we still observe today in spite of the Eis Laasos that is why gemaras are to this day still printed without nekudos, it is said that is why the Gra wrote mostly abbreviations and more.
The Torah’s values and principles are forever and even if temporarily suspended not subject to change.
If the Rambam is declaring that one who learns and supports himself is the higher madrega and the Kesef Mishna at no point disagrees with that rather to the contrary agrees with that point of the Rambam than any other suggestion is trying to change the Torah and FALSE.
As I proved above from Rabbenu Bachya, Rav Nasan Adler ztz’l above that Eis Laasos is not a general heter as Rav Steinzaltz sees it by changing the tzuras hadaf and elimination of hagohas. Every individual should evaluate his eis laasos. The litvishe tend to accomodate like tehilim, yud gimel midos at night and bima beamtza, whereas the chasiddishe see the reverse heferu torosecha eis laasos Hashem being steadfast and not budging an inch.
They can sit and learn, take a stipend but I am not mechuyav to support
Your loss if you don’t support talmidei chachomim even if they don’t be poskim.
Anyhow, good to hear that you now agree that it’s muttar.
And yes there is very much of the Torah shebaal peh Takanah that we still observe today in spite of the Eis Laasos that is why gemaras are to this day still printed without nekudos, it is said that is why the Gra wrote mostly abbreviations and more.
And the “takanah” to allow accepting a stipend also still exists.
That’s assuming we pasken like the Rambam, and that the Rambam wouldn’t allow a Kollel stipend. However, the poskim don’t assume that; they add the part about eis la’asos as an extra snif.
There is an inyan vayofutsu mqyenosov chutzo spreading the Torah to the public by mainly being poskim, so the public must support it but being talmidei chachomum for themselves is not our responsibility to support.
Your loss
DY >> Your loss if you don’t support talmidei chachomim
a basic question: how do we determine who is a Talmid Chacham. Like Rabbi Yannai?
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