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Why are Working Bochurim who learn only part-time considered second class in shidduchim?
In an era where Coronavirus causes Full-time learners to learn less and home-bound remote Working bochurim to learn more,
wouldn’t it make sense for the velt to remove the stigma against marrying Working Bochurim?Do you know that the Rambam Hilchas Talmud Torah (3,10) is against not having an occupation?
Wow!!! Good to hear someone ask the million dollar question!!!
The simple answer is (and you may not like it), the system is the system, doesn’t have to make sense, but those are the facts as they are. I myself, before I got married, ran a successful Amazon business which bh is currently my main parnasah and day job. I learnt a serious 1st and 2nd seder. I worked during lunch, and night times (I didn’t do night seder… My nights were friends weddings/vorts, dates, and work + some social life..) I put serious gedarim in place, my phone remains in my car during seder, and only once a seder during coffee break did I check for anything urgent on my phone.However, knowing the yeshiva system and how these things work, I was very private about my business, and was very vague to my closest friends. They weren’t stupid, but as long as I didn’t say it straight up, I wouldn’t get that שם, of ‘This bochur does Amazon’. Did it affect me? A little. One girl, when I told her on a 5th date about it, felt uneasy and for other reasons also we stopped dating. My wife however, loved the fact that you can be a serious learner, AND earn a parnasah on the side without compromising on 1st and 2nd seder…
So, sorry for boring you with my personal story, you are 100% right!!! I’ve spoken to many people including Rebbeim, and no one was able to say anything was wrong. The best answer I heard, was “If it would be totally acceptable to work and learn, bochurim that can shteig, and are just lazy, will all drop out of learning”.
Just to finish off… Just a little proven fact for all uneducated people out there about the yeshiva system. A very big percentage of bochurim out there (and some yungerlite) would learn MORE working on the side and learning a serious seder or two, than those ‘learning a whole day. I’ve seen this by many people I know…
Thanks for bringing up this important and informative topic, Hatzlacha Raba, and may you find the girl that will see your work as a plus, not a minus!!!About 30 years ago, I had a friend and chavrusa that learned a full morning seder in yeshiva, worked in the afternoon, and attended law school at night. He’s been a successful attorney for many years now, and he still learns in the mornings and at night. I always had great respect for someone who was able to accomplish so much.
you want logic by shidduchim? why does everyone go gaga over “top boys”?, why do people demand 5,10, 20 years of support? why do people want a gelt shidduch? why do heavy girls have a hard time? why this stigma of illness, mental issues, divorced homes? etc.etc.etc.
Why are poor women who’s fathers are not Roshei Yeshiva considered second class in shidduchim? Why do we say to focus on middos while attaching glamor shots to resumes? Why is it OK to violate HIPAA laws when investigating possible health concerns? There are a thousand and one questions you can ask about the shidduch system. At the end of the day, it’s a broken and unfair game that we are all forced to play, dancing to the beat of the game masters, the shadchanim and mothers.
The “Velt” was wrong pre-covid and will continue to be wrong post-covid. A baas yisroel should value the ability of a bochur to live a balanced life and make at least some contribution to his family while learning. A young woman whose priority is to marry someone who lacks the education and motivation to “work” may not be your beschert anyway so keep looking and good things will happen. Much hatzlacha.
what an original question.
can’t be because girls want to marry talmidei chachamim, could it it? nah, it’s gotta be 2because of ‘the system’.I’m not downgrading you or anyone else5who could do both, who still love learning. but when someone who doesn’t know you, particularly girls who know about learning only from high school and don’t realize there’s a middle ground, it’s logical to assume the full time learner is the bigger talmid chacham. and on a whole, it’s probably true too. I’m not saying it has to be so, also I’m not saying parmassa isn’t acceptable/commendable . just saying where they’re coming from.
learning more because of corona? full time learners learning less? taking your word as is, maybe it’s because easier for a 30 mph car to speed up and a 60 mph to 8slow? comprehendo?
now on to bashers of the whole ‘system’: why the stigma against illness? what type? something serious? is the answer not self explanatory? and mental illness? are you crazy? fat girls? sad as it may be , this isn’t a fault of the ‘system’. hippa laws were not written by the chafetz chayim.
I agree with Rav Shimon Fuerst in his Sefer Tanu Kavod Latorah available on hebrewbooks.org and Rav Noach Eisic Oelbaum Shlita in his Sefer Ninchas Chen that not enough emphasis is placed on learning , rishonim leading to halacha with Tur and Beis Yosef as learned in the alter heim, so the sitting and learning is questionable.
Maybe because they have a path in life they would like to lead which correct or incorrect depends who you ask, and GENERALLY (not always) that type of boy will not be one who is already working before marriage. So why look into it over a guy who more likely will be what she would like.
@arihalevi, let me guess you are one of the aforementioned bucherim.
“They continue to learn every day, just curtailing one or two sdarim in order to get a head start when the big bills come along after marriage. How else will these boys be able to afford tuition and Shmura Matza for their future families?”
Working in a warehouse part time will get you nowhere fast, the money you save will be eaten up in two years, there only way you are going to get ahead in the long term is by getting an education not a part time job.Why is it OK to violate HIPAA laws when investigating possible health concerns?
Not sure who you think is violating HIPAA laws…
“Who Must Follow These Laws
We call the entities that must follow the HIPAA regulations “covered entities.”Covered entities include:
Health Plans, including health insurance companies, HMOs, company health plans, and certain government programs that pay for health care, such as Medicare and Medicaid.
Most Health Care Providers—those that conduct certain business electronically, such as electronically billing your health insurance—including most doctors, clinics, hospitals, psychologists, chiropractors, nursing homes, pharmacies, and dentists.
Health Care Clearinghouses—entities that process nonstandard health information they receive from another entity into a standard (i.e., standard electronic format or data content), or vice versa.
In addition, business associates of covered entities must follow parts of the HIPAA regulations.Often, contractors, subcontractors, and other outside persons and companies that are not employees of a covered entity will need to have access to your health information when providing services to the covered entity. We call these entities “business associates.” Examples of business associates include:
Companies that help your doctors get paid for providing health care, including billing companies and companies that process your health care claims
Companies that help administer health plans
People like outside lawyers, accountants, and IT specialists
Companies that store or destroy medical records
Covered entities must have contracts in place with their business associates, ensuring that they use and disclose your health information properly and safeguard it appropriately. Business associates must also have similar contracts with subcontractors. Business associates (including subcontractors) must follow the use and disclosure provisions of their contracts and the Privacy Rule, and the safeguard requirements of the Security Rule.Who Is Not Required to Follow These Laws
Many organizations that have health information about you do not have to follow these laws.Examples of organizations that do not have to follow the Privacy and Security Rules include:
Life insurers
Employers
Workers compensation carriers
Most schools and school districts
Many state agencies like child protective service agencies
Most law enforcement agencies
Many municipal offices”If your question is why it is important to know about possible medical issues in a shidduch, I’m afraid I’m not going to be able to give you an answer which will satisfy you, but it’s pretty self-evident to most.
Do you know that the Rambam Hilchas Talmud Torah (3,10) is against not having an occupation?
Do you know that we don’t pasken like this Ramba”m? See Kesef Mishneh.
As far as the OP question, Participant answered it correctly.
Simply put, girls (and their parents) aren’t counting on a boy being the exception, and the general rule is that boys who are in yeshiva full time are more likely to be learning more than boys who are working part-time.
The Rambam proves his point by the fact that our tenoim had an occupation. Yegiah capecha ki soseil ashrecha vetov lach. Baal Batim should be verhert (tested) ahead of time to acertain their future potential before accepted to sit and learn. It says both ein kemach ein Torah and vice versa. For detailed discussion see Yabia Omer YD (7,17).
I think three is a vicious circle of people who learn without getting a profession, then go into teaching without having an inspiration for that, then teaching new generation while trying to start a business on a side.
so much to say , a short answer on erev shabbos is
1. everyone is free to choose who to marry and deal with the consequences
2. the reason why “working boy ” is a chisaron for most is simple, and that is a kal vechomer .. if the yeshiva bochur is not much to write home about and barely a chatzi guf … what do u want from the bochur who didnt have sipuk in learning and at a young age worked in a warehouse with mexicans or worse in a office w secretaries…
3.. ayyy some working boys ARE kovea itim & maybe even had an aliya from working & being on a schedule and… the teretz is those few exceptions have plenty of names and many girls would grab that if it really existedmuch more to say i know the above comment is logical & lacks sympathy but will be mamshich with feelings mayb motzei
What about, kol torah shein ima melocho sofoh betela, if no work is supplemented with Torah, that learning will not continue, Pirkei Avos (2,2)?
There are plenty of girls who are looking for working boys. Do you think they’re second-class too? Do you think they’re not frum enough? Girl who are looking for learning boys will date learning boys, and it is not their job to validate your life choices.
The Rambam proves his point by the fact that our tenoim had an occupation.
But again, we don’t paskens like that.
What about, kol torah shein ima melocho sofoh betela, if no work is supplemented with Torah, that learning will not continue, Pirkei Avos (2,2)?
Do you think the gedolim such as R Aharon Kotler and R Moshe Feinstein, (let alone רבי נהוראי and many others onward until contemporary times) who advocated for people to learn full time, missed that?
Bochurim have to ascertain whether they are suitable to sit and learn. If everyone would sit and learn what would happen with the Yisoschor and Zevulin partnership? Moshe Rabbenu blessed the maasei yad.
“רבי נהוראי and many others onward until contemporary times”
This statement proves the adage “the exception proves the rule”
The time lapse between the tanna Rabi Meir and Rav Aharon Kotler is approximately 1800 years, comprising the vast majority of the mesorah of Torah She’be’al Peh.
Could someone provide a list of rabbinic and halachic personalities of note from these 1800 years who “paskened” that one must learn Torah at all times to the exclusion of working to provide sustenance for one’s wife and children?
I ask simply because all halachic literature (not to mention the Torah itself) points in the opposite direction. For illustrative purposes only, if all would learn only Torah and not engage in physical work or commerce, virtually the entire Sedorim Zeraim and Nezikin could be discarded.Usually when one marries a serious learner and circumstances make him go out to work you see many balebatim learning many hours and they’re still can be Talmidei Chachomim. Mothers working full time with large families is very controversial
Kodshim could also be discarded as the only korban one was able to bring is a mincha as he could not afford anything else. What about tzedaka the halachas of the rich? Rav Shimon bar Yachai and the ones like him, see SA O’CH (106,2) MB s’k 6, could sit and learn all the time. How will the father in law support his son in law. The midrash, yochal yeheh yoshev botel, t’l vechol maasecha asher taaseh, is against sitting aside.
Rational, who said “must”?
I am giving my own personal prospective, I was a working boy who was kovah ittim and going to college at night, I married a BY Girl and I am bh a grandfather several times over.
Fast forward to when my daughter was in the parsha every single boy who worked part time that was redt for her was not on the same page as her haskafawise.
When she met my Son in law she asked about him about his plans and he said I love learning and want to learn as long as a I can, then she asked him if he wanted to go into business or chinuch like his father he answer I will do whatever is best for my yiras somayim, he has now a successful architectural business.To Daas Yochid:
Your post is complete ZIYUF HATORAH!
1. The Tur and Shulchan Aruch pasken (Orach Chaim 156) explicitly like the Rambam that after davening and learning in the morning one must GO TO WORK.
2. In Igros Moshe Rav Moshe feinstein clearly lays out the Torah Perspective that obviously one who is able to excel at both Talmud Torah and Parnassa Bkavod like the Tannaim an Amoraim is the ideal Oved Hashem and the highest level. Rav Moshe explains the current minhag of many as due to YERIDAS HADOROS and loss of strength to excel at both creating the need for Klal Yisrael splitting into “teams” that each focus more on Learning or Parnassa.
RAV MOSHE DID NOT ONLY NOT MISS THE PROOFS OF THE RAMBAM BUT EXPLAINS THEM AS IS WITHOUT TRYING TO CHANGE THE TORAH AS YOU ARE.
3. To AriHalevi:
LEARN CHOVOS HALEVAVOS AND STOP CARING WHAT RAYKANIM AND POCHAZIM AROUND YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND YOU WILL FIND A SHIDDUCH ONE HUNDRED TIMES BETTER THAN ALL OF THE POOR SOULS AROUND YOU WASTING THEIR LIFE PURSUING GRATIFICATION IN THE EYES OF THE PEOPLE AROUND THEM.
Duvidf, see Biur Halacha on that Sh”A.
And your quoting R Moshe proved my point; not sure why you think otherwise.
BTW, the all caps is unbecoming.
Reb Eliezer, you said (disingenuously quoting a Rambam which is not halacha l’maaseh) that it’s assur.
The argument isn’t that everyone must learn full time. You’re basically making the same error as Rational. I’m arguing against your mistaken assertion that one may not learn full time and not work. That is simply not the accepted halacha.
I’m just saying that it’s okay (and that’s an understatement) that we have people doing that (כן ירבו), but I’m not saying that everyone has to. So all of your questions, such as what will be with Yissochor/Zevulun, are irrelevant.
סופה בטלה וגוררת עון – כתבו הספרים שזהו נאמר לכלל העולם שאין כולם יכולים לזכות לעלות למדרגה רמה זו להיות עסקם רק בתורה לבדה אבל אנשים יחידים יוכל להמצא בכל עת באופן זה [וזהו שאמרו בברכות ל”ו ע”ב הרבה עשו כרשב”י ולא עלתה בידן ר”ל דוקא הרבה] והקב”ה בודאי ימציא להם פרנסתם וכעין זה כתב הרמב”ם פי”ג מהלכות שמיטין ויובלות ולא שבט לוי בלבד וכו’ עי”ש ובפרט אם כבר נמצאו אנשים שרוצים להספיק לו צרכיו כדי שיעסוק בתורה בודאי לא שייך זה ויששכר וזבלון יוכיח:
ביאור הלכה
As stated in SA O’CH 156 mentioned above, the Ksav Sofer explains Pirkei Avos, Rebbi Yaakov Omer, hamehalech baderech (figuratuve, living on this world) veshona umafsik mimishnosa veomar kamo noeh ilon zeh, maaleh alav hakosuv keillu mischayev benafsha, Pirkei Avos (3,9) If a person must stop learning, he should feel as a necessity to go to work but not be happy about it.
DY, it is halacha lemaaseh for most people as mentioned above paskened in O’CH SA 156 and Biur Halacha above mentions yechidim. It someone wants to become a morah horaoh, kol hakovad but must emphasize learning gemora to derive halachas (Rif, Rosh and Rambam) following by Tur, Beis Yosef and SA with its commentaries, otherwise yegiah kapecha ki sochel. Look at Rav Shimon Fuerst’s booklet Tanu Kavod Latorah, available at hebrewbooks.com.
Daas Yochid:
1. Look at Radvaz on that Rambam in Shemita Vyovel where he clearly says the Rambam there is not contradicting his harsh words he says in Talmud Torah about people who make parnassah from Torah rather his intention is the “Lo shevet Levi bilvad” will have Siyata Dishmaya in their work for parnassah and earn enough to free up their time to learn Torah.
2. The point about Rav Moshe in the Tshuva is that he is clearly going with the pashut pshat in the Rambam that the one who learns and works is the HIGHER Madrega and not the other way around.
3. For you to throw such a severe Rambam in the garbage by throwing out a reckless “We don’t pasken like that” is Ziyuf Torah as I said. I wouldn’t exactly compare this Rambam to paskening like Beis Shamai as you are suggesting… A careful reading of the Kesef Mishna you quoted will show the opposite of what you said in his name, all the Kesef Mishna does is defend people who do earn money from Torah Learning.
The Biur Halacha can be understood just as the Kesef Mishna, (although I can see in the words of the Biur Halacha how one can misread them as to be arguing on the Rambam as to what is a higher madrega) merely providing a HETER for those who wish to go AGAINST the Shulchan Aruch and Not got to work.
To go against the simple reading of Rov Rishonim, Tur and Shulchan Aruch along with many Achronim on the basis of your understanding of the Biur Halacha is Megaleh Panim Batorah Shelo Kehalacha.
4. For some reason none of your “Poskim” decided to change the tefillos we say at the most critical and holiest times of the year (Birkas Kohanim, Hotzaas Sefer Torah Yomim Noraim, Birkas habanim Erev Yom Kippur) which ALL ask Hashem at length for blessing in PARNASSAH that will enable Avodas Hashem.
DY, There is nothing wrong for bochurim working and we do pasken like the Rambam mostly except for yechidim as your Biur Halacha and I don’t appreciate you castigating me for quoting the above Rambam. It is wrong to rely on support sitting and learning for one who is not suitable for it. The money can be spent for better use. Both do wrong, the one who spends the money and the one who takes it.
I don’t understand the OP’s premise. What does Covid have to do with anything? Which Bochurim are no longer learning full time because of Covid? All Yeshivos that I know of are operating at full capacity as normal? Must be in some alternate universe.
Some guys are happier with a girl who’s not so bright, and as long as they are able to impress the shver everything is good. Other guys want a girl who can think for herself and is able to use reason. In other words, someone who has seichel. Such a girl will have at least a little understanding that not everyone was created equal and that הכל לפי המצב. I can’t say you should look for a smart girl, but it’s the wiser thing to do. Have bitachon and daven.
This seems like a Jewish version of internet flames between working mothers and homemakers (Now, settled by Corona to a draw as WFH…).
Looking at bigger picture, it seems that most people are supposed to work – make your shabbos like hol but not get tzedoka; many tried to be like Shimon Bar Yochai and failed; teach your son Torah, profession so that he does not become a thief; Rambam quoted above. Although Rambam himself seems to prefer learning, including science from Muslims, until the death of his brother.
So, obviously, B- full time learning at someone else expense is an innovation, cause by destruction of Jewish communities at modern times. Simply speaking, at times when anti-semitism protected the community, one could be an ignoramus or an apikoires, and still have Jewish kids. So, emergency measures were used and probably were the right ones.
In one reported conversation right after WW2, Hazon Ish quotes to the visiting Satmar Rov the Rambam that his yeshiva system is the desert where you are supposed to go when there is no other place to live. [ad kan Hazon Ish]. Obviously, we are closing on 80 years ” in the desert” – twice more than Moshe Rabeinu – and we now experience negative effects. To such degree, that people have to apologize for working.
At some point, this self-preservation is becoming self-defeating – we are not preserving live Judaism, but some unauthentic dead copy.
I don’t understand the OP’s premise. What does Covid have to do with anything?
Clickbait, which seems to have worked.
DaasYochid,
seems like Rambam has a majority support here, but I am curious to understand the strength of your references – is your position based on your own analysis of the sources you have quoted or you learned from a Rav? If the latter, maybe you can ask him to clarify the issues that were raised hereRead the OP again
Why?
הכלל העולה שכל שאין לו ממה להתפרנס מותר ליטול שכרו ללמד בין מהתלמידים עצמן בין מן הצבור. וכן מותר לו ליטול שכר מהצבור לדון או מהבעלי דינין אחר שמירת התנאים הנזכרים בהלכות סנהדרין. ואחרי הודיע ה’ אותנו את כל זאת אפשר לומר שכוונת רבינו כאן היא שאין לאדם לפרוק עול מלאכה מעליו כדי להתפרנס מן הבריות כדי ללמוד אבל שילמוד מלאכה המפרנסת אותו ואם תספיקנו מוטב ואם לא תספיקנו יטול הספקתו מהצבור ואין בכך כלום. וזהו שכתב כל המשים על לבו וכו’. והביא כמה משניות מורות על שראוי ללמוד מלאכה ואפילו נאמר שאין כן דעת רבינו אלא כנראה מדבריו בפירוש המשנה קי”ל כל מקום שהלכה רופפת בידך הלך אחר המנהג. וראינו כל חכמי ישראל קודם זמן רבינו ואחריו נוהגים ליטול שכרם מן הצבור וגם כי נודה שהלכה כדברי רבינו בפירוש המשנה אפשר שהסכימו כן כל חכמי הדורות משום עת לעשות לה’ הפרו תורתך שאילו לא היתה פרנסת הלומדים והמלמדים מצויה לא היו יכולים לטרוח בתורה כראוי והיתה התורה משתכחת ח”ו ובהיותה מצויה יוכלו לעסוק ויגדיל תורה ויאדיר:
כסף משנה
DaasYochid,
seems like Rambam has a majority support hereNot true. Read the כסף משנה
For those erroneously claiming that the שו”ע holds it’s assur to learn and get supported, I will remind you that the author of the כסף משנה was the same as the שו”ע, and, no, he’s not contradicting himself.
and we do pasken like the Rambam mostly except for yechidim as your Biur Halacha and I don’t appreciate you castigating me for quoting the above Rambam.
No, we don’t pasken like the Rambam. If we did, it would be assur for yechidim as well. There’s no quota of how many people can learn and get supported, the metzius is that is was always yechidim, but halevai it should be more (I think R Moshe writes this).
Yes, I will castigate you for pretending we pasken like the Rambam thereby unfairly denigrateing thousands of b’nei Torah who have made Torah their occupation. Whether you appreciate it or not.
A careful reading of the Kesef Mishna you quoted will show the opposite of what you said in his name, all the Kesef Mishna does is defend people who do earn money from Torah Learning.
He is more than “defending them” (if that means to imply a mere limud z’chus), he is saying halacha and historical precedent is with them.
@dass yochid,
“Read the OP again
Why?”
because your debate with Reb E about the Rambam has nothing to do with status of pt working boys and shidduchimNot everyone is suitable to be a morah horaoh, cherev muneches al tzavora, otherwise yegiah kapecha ki sachel yoser miyiras shomayim and there is the reason of eis laasos. Rav Nosan Adler ztz’l did not write a sefer only placed a mark on the margin to remember as he had a photographic memory. The Rabbenu Bachya in Parshas Ki Siso explains the meaning of chasurei mechsurei that originally it was unnecessary to write things done in detail but as the generations became weaker more required to be written down in detail, so things were left out on purpose.
If the girl requires you to sit and the learn and father in law will support you, kol hakovad but the Rambam refers to the case where someone is in a kolel and supported from the tzedakah there only currently one who wants to be a morah haroah should take advantage of.
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