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PBA: That is my definition of Orthodox as well. Hence, a woman who wants to do something that Hashem wants (or permits and wants as an Einah Metzuvah V’osah) should be allowed to do it and should not be stopped by society. That is the extent and entirety of my “feminism”.
….If that is what Hashem wants, I assume you mean.
Now, I’m a bit wondering what you are aiming at here. You seem to be conflating what is muttar in certain sugyos with what is muttar in other sugyos.
Meaning, just because something is muttar in denei lulav, does not mean it is muttar in dinei shabbos. Just because in dinei mezuman women are allowed to make a mezuman, does not mean that in hashkafa they are allowed to. And that is the case here.
But more importantly, just because they are allowed to in halacha, does not mean that the ones who do it for reasons of challenging Hashem, are not being reshaim. They are.
Why don’t you tell me what you are referring to?
Do you think that rabbonim are making up halacha and saying that things are assur which are not? I have never heard of this.
Do you think that rabbonim are saying something is assur for hashkafic reasons when it is muttar in halacha? That is happening, and it sounds pretty normal to me–I don’t understand your objection.
AinOhdMilvado, you seem to be considering this in an extremely simplistic, and therefore, very wrong, manner. Of course, this is most likely due to the aforementioned Zionist Kool-Aid you say you love rather than an intellectual reason.
The terrible merida of Zionism would have only been made MORE tragic, had Hashem allowed MORE Jews ch”V R”L to have lost their lives due to Zionist aggression and those wars then being lost on top of everything.
In other words, the likely reason the Zionists did not lose those wars and the likely reason that this Avoda Zara of Zionism is still in existence, is that the Zionists have (wrongly, of course) made themselves responsible for the security of mass numbers of Jews.
So it seems plain that Hashem granted them victories for the express purpose of preserving Jewish lives. Had they lost those wars, it would have been even more disastrous than Zionism presently is. But had Zionism not started, not one Jewish live would have been lost in any of their follies. This is absolute.
Certainly, the gedolim were and are against this egel haZahav, and no miracles change that. In fact, the Torah dedicates a few pesukim to this exact phenomenon: if a Navi arises and performs **miracles** but uses those as a vehicle to say that you should worship other gods, this is Hashem testing you and you should NOT follow this navi. All the Zionist victories are no better. Again, miracles do not determine right and wrong.
The State is, unfortunately, a reality. And tactical considerations do not necessarily dictate the same response as what would be ideal were those considerations not there. But Zionism was and is a terrible disaster for our people.
May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah, BB”A.
PBA: You’re forgetting, I don’t believe in Hashkafa. I think “Hashkafa” is an excuse that people make up to a) Assur/Mattir things that Halacha doesn’t really Assur or Mattir and b) to think/say that they are better than other Jews. It would be rare (or impossible) to find a Rav who says that a woman who honestly wants to be M’kayeim A mitzvah can’t do it “for Hashkafic reasons”. That’s just silly. I object just as strongly to Assuring something Muttar for “Hashkafic reasons” as I object to Mattering the Assur for “Hashkafic reasons” (which everyone agrees is ridiculous). People who challenge Hashem are R’shaim. That shouldn’t stop those who aren’t R’sha’im from doing something Muttar, especially when they’re M’kayeim a Mitzvah by that (which is exactly what the guy from FrumTeens tried to stop-in many, many cases).
AinOhdMilvado -“Health…
I am forced to assume that, according to you and “the likes of you” that the abnormal, unnatural victories of the IDF in ’48, ’67, and ’73, were due to the incredible SUPERMEN of the IDF since HaSh-m (according to you and “the likes of you”) opposes the state and believe that HKB”H would not have been responsible for all those victories for the traif medina. Still, – accounting for all the Scud missiles that fell in Israel during the Gulf War, and the thousands of katyushas and kassams that have fallen in more recent years with, B”H, extremely limited injury or damage – well, that is a bit harder to explain.”
No, that’s what the Freye think. It’s sad that you are living in your own little dream world. How about reading all the posts on the topic before commenting?
You think that there are only Zionists, like you, living in EY?
There are actually thousands of Bnei Torah. This is why the enemies always lose. I pity the Israelis because this protection might not last given the recent attacks on the Tal law and the Charedi population in general.
Keep dreaming that Zionism is Hashem’s will!
Aha. We don’t practice the same religion, you and me (along with the rest of orthodox judaism).
More than that, you are being ridiculous by pretending that they are simply “being mekayem a mitzva” and not challenging the position that Hashem made for them in Judaism. I have first hand knowledge; I am friends with these people.
PBA: Maybe we just have different friends? I dunno. My experience with organizations such as JOFA has been terrible and I completely agree that they have nothing to do with Orthodoxy. My experience with individuals has been mixed. I do think it’s a Chaval though to stop those L’sheim Shamayim individuals from doing things L’sheim Shamayim though. I’m a theoretical idealist, meaning that when I talk in theory I aim for the ideal. Practical situations sometimes require adjustments based on things like is the person trying to be Oker a Minhag or do they just want to follow Halachah. But that doesn’t change what the Din should be in theory.
And I have no issue with the position that Hashem made for anyone in Judaism. Chas V’shalom. HKBH gave everyone a purpose and opportunities to fulfill that purpose. I just get very upset when people try to distort what that purpose is for certain people.
(Just curious, are you saying that I don’t practice what the rest of Orthodox Judaism does or that you don’t? Or that we both don’t?)
I think you don’t. You just denied the entire notion of daas torah.
This is what the Chazon Ish says about that:
Rough translation: The distinguishing between psak of issur and psak of guidelines and decrees, is displaying novelty in the Torah, and is desecrating Talmidei Chachomim; and those who do so have no share in the World to Come, and are passul as witnesses.
Source: A private letter entitled ????? ?????, which is has been published. Just google the words and it’ll come up.
PBA: I didn’t deny Da’as Torah. There are Chachamim and Gedolim who have the ability and right to create Issurim L’migdar Milsa when necessary. That moderator is not one of those people.
Oh. You’ll want to clarify the comment which starts PBA: You’re forgetting…
PBA: Correct. People who say those things don’t have any right to. Gedolei Haposkim do.
Ok, that is a bit different.
So then, now that gedolei haposkim have condemned these people, what is your further defense of it?
(And in any event, I’m not precisely sure how you decide that only gedolei haposkim are able to offer any opinion on hashkafa. Certainly I agree that we should follow gedolei haposkim over lesser people, but that doesn’t mean that nobody else can offer an opinion. Also, don’t you usually not want to follow gedolim over lesser rabbonim?)
PBA: I think you’re making assumptions about me based on other things you know. Why would I endorse following lower Rabbonim over Poskim? That would just be silly. Everyone has their own Rav who can decide in a Machlokes between contemporary Rabbonim. But no Rav can go against the leading Poskim.
I don’t know what people Poskim have condemned. I do that many women who learn don’t do it to violate Hashem’s or Chazal’s will and that they have major Poskim who back up what they do as well. I also know that there are people who not only ignore these Poskim, but they try to discredit them because they personally disagree with certain Shittos. That’s just wrong and that is Megaleh Ponim as well.
And no, the average person or even Talmid Chacham doesn’t have such a power. The Gemara in Yevamos says that the Chachamim have the Koach to change Halachah Hora’as Sha’ah L’migdar Milsa. Pashtus is that this still sort of applies nowadays and that the Gedolei Haposkim have that power. No one else does. Who is any random person (or Talmid Chacham) to think that he can alter the P’sak of the Shulchan Aruch based on his ideology? I might be too sure of myself, but even I wouldn’t go that far. And furthermore, where does that ideology come from? Certainly not the SH”A, as his ideology doesn’t conform to that P’sak. So no, once again, I say that “Hashkafa” is an excuse that people use to Mattir the Assur, Asser the Muttar, and proclaim themselves as better than others. Because that’s really all it does.
(Just a side point: There is a reason that the Aruch Hashulchan had to repeat over and over in his Sefer that “Ein Anu Gozrin G’zeiros L’atzmeinu”. Why do people nowadays think that they have the Koach to do that for every minor issue that they feel is a problem?)
1. I don’t know why you are equating making a psak of daas torah, with going against halacha. The Chazon Ish does not say that, and that is not the case.
2. I still think you are understanding this in a funny way. As I noted earlier, I am not going against the shulchan aruch. I agree that in dinei mezuman a woman can make a mezuman, and I also say that a woman who does so because she feels that otherwise women don’t have an equal opportunity in Judiasm is a rashanta and is attacking Hashem. There is no contradiction, and I am curious where you see one.
3. Who is making gzeiros? I am not. I am not making any issur–I am merely saying that having an ideology where one tries to fit the Torah into one’s own thinking instead of trying to fit one’s own thinking into the Torah, is apikorsus and an attack on the Torah. It simply follows that the actions one does in furtherance of that are maaseh rishus. That is quite different from making a gzeira.
4. I was making assumptions about you, I don’t recall specific instances where you espoused that opinion. And since you disavow it, you should in this instance follow the opinion of rubam k’kulam of the gedolim that these practices are pure rishus and a chillul Hashem. And if any rav disagrees, you should disavow him as well.
PBA: What practices? We’re talking in ideals and theoretical. Maybe I just have more faith in the intentions of people than you do. Women who want an equal opportunity are fitting Judaism into their own wishes. Women who want to be Mekayim Mitzvos are doing Ratzon Hashem. The line between the two is not always so easy to see. And I don’t know if your assertion that Rubo K’kulo of Poskim are against this. I have never seen anyone say that a woman is not allowed to make a Mezuman in her own home. Very few reject the Prishah on women learning on their own. If something is in the SH”A as Muttar for women to do, very few Poskim will Asser it, at least in private.
Why are you still going back to the halachic issues? We aren’t talking about a prisha, or anyone. We’re talking about the feminist movement as applied to Orthodoxy.
And it seems I am far more acquainted with it than are you. Blazes, I live in it.
PBA: Ah, I see our misunderstanding here. Yes, most associated with the feminist movement in Orthodox Judaism are not actual Shomrei Halacha and want to fit Judaism into their worldview. In my experience, however, many individuals, who might be labeled as “feminists” would not agree with the movement and actually just want to do Torah Umitzvos.
Or maybe they just want to see the sources for doing what they are being told to do. The entire world had to be redefined through the chet of Chava because she was not told the actual halacha. It’s not forbidden to learn inside, just not encouraged.
Hmmm. Ok. Well, tell me what they do and think that someone would label them as feminists.
So we’ll suppose they want to make a mezuman. Tell me the rest of the story: they already are keeping the rest of the torah?
Tell me why they want to make a mezuman–is it because they don’t want to be different than men, or because there is something spiritual they need about babbling some yiddish before benching in a group?
And tell me better: Tell me why they want to do it even though they will be perceived as belonging to the group that is attacking Hashem? If I was being confused with the apikorsim for doing something completely voluntary, I would stop doing it instead of joining together with them in the same groups.
I’ll somewhat agree though; I do know someone who is like how you describe. And I don’t really understand her answers to these questions.
I can only speak for myself. This is all I’m going to say because I do what I do because I believe in it and the more I say the more I feel I have to prove a point.
Women have just as strong a craving for knowledge as do men. I wish more than anything I could bring sources for my hashkafa and halacha, rather than ‘because someone else said so’.
I don’t make a mezuman for the reason stated, that it comes across as feminist and contesting halacha, despite that I learned (I don’t have a source because women are discouraged from learning) that it is just as big an inyan for women to make a mezuman as for men.
But you’re saying that because someone else does it for twisted reasons, it becomes forbidden. Yet, so much of what we hold sacred is practiced by other religions, for reasons of blasphemy or idolatry. Are we to research every voluntary practice to determine if others are doing the same action for tainted reasons?
interjection:
1. I don’t learn because I crave knowledge; I learn because Hashem told me to. So we do so for different reasons.
2. “Women have just as strong a craving for knowledge as do men.” You assert that as if it is self fulfilling truth. It may be true, and it may not be–you have no idea, nor do I. It also is not really relevant to the discussion; women can want to know even if their craving is more or less.
3. You are asking why it should become forbidden because others are doing it for heretical reasons. I don’t feel like answering that question right now; it is a bit off topic.
PBA: To quote a very smart woman who I once asked this to, “Why should the way people perceive me stop me from doing a Kiyum Safek Mid’oraisa?” Those words made an impression on me. Why should a woman care what anti-Jewish feminists do or what others will perceive of her? Why should that association stop her from doing a Mitzvah out of Ahavas or Yiras Shamayim? (Another woman once said that to me. I noticed she was wearing Tzitzis out. I was curious about that and asked her, and she quoted the Mishnah B’rurah’s rant that Tzitzis should be worn out. I told her that it looks weird though and that people will think she’s Conservative. Her response was, “Is my Yiras Adam more important than my Yiras Shamayim?” I managed to convince her to keep her Tzitzis tucked in, but how could I honestly tell such a person, who only wants to do Mitzvos, that she can’t?)
So I will agree with you in theory. Most people who call themselves feminist probably are not actually Shomrei Halachah and they are probably actually trying to be Oker Halachah. But many who we would label as feminists are good Jews who just want to do as many Mitzvos as possible.
And by they way, most women who make Mezumans probably say Nevarech and not Mir Veln Bentschn. 😛
Simply never ceases to amaze me how ungrateful so many people who supposedly espouse Jewish values can be. How many of the posters here who have spoken poorly about the State of Israel or the army have enjoyed a visit to Israel or have children studying/living there? How many people who speak derogatorily enjoy benefits, monetary or otherwise from the State? None of this would be possible without the government and the Army. This isn’t difficult; when someone improves your life in any which way the appropriate response is to give thanks. Don’t complicate matters a whole lot by thinking too hard.
I already see a few of you shaking your head and pointing out just how clueless I am. “It’s Hashem providing the benefit, not this rotten State” so many of you claim. Your reasoning is faulty. Hashem provides the benefit for everything at all times, no exceptions. Do you withhold a thank you from the stranger in front of you who held the elevator door open because it’s all from Hashem anyway too? You thank the person who carried out Hashem’s will, regardless of their intentions. Without the State of Israel and the Israeli Army would your sons be learning in Jerusalem, your daughters in seminaries? Go ahead and reap the benefits of the State and the Army then sit back and whine about those very same people that gave you access to the land in the first place.
Sam: How do you happen to run into all these kooky women? If you don’t think they’re kooks, address the rest of the question.
Sam2 -“Another woman once said that to me. I noticed she was wearing Tzitzis out. I was curious about that and asked her,”
Does she also put on Tefilin? If not, then her agenda is not to do Mitzvos, but to be a feminist. This is what most these type are. It has nothing to with Mitzvos, only with Women’s lib.
Another woman once said that to me. I noticed she was wearing Tzitzis out. I was curious about that and asked her, and she quoted the Mishnah B’rurah’s rant that Tzitzis should be worn out. I told her that it looks weird though and that people will think she’s Conservative. Her response was, “Is my Yiras Adam more important than my Yiras Shamayim?
Really? She thinks that she is just doing her yiras shamayim by wearing her tzitzis out?
Millions of women don’t wear tzitzis, and are fine frum people. Not a single gadol’s wife wears tzitzis out. But this woman has decided that because she is afraid of G-d, she needs to wear them out.
I don’t believe her.
Frankly, I often don’t even believe it when a guy tells me he wears tzitzis out because of Hashem; I often think he is doing it because he wants to look frum.
BRAINFREEZE -“I already see a few of you shaking your head and pointing out just how clueless I am. “It’s Hashem providing the benefit, not this rotten State” so many of you claim. Your reasoning is faulty. Hashem provides the benefit for everything at all times, no exceptions. Do you withhold a thank you from the stranger in front of you who held the elevator door open because it’s all from Hashem anyway too? You thank the person who carried out Hashem’s will, regardless of their intentions. Without the State of Israel and the Israeli Army would your sons be learning in Jerusalem, your daughters in seminaries? Go ahead and reap the benefits of the State and the Army then sit back and whine about those very same people that gave you access to the land in the first place.”
Hey, I posted many times that you have to have Hakoras Hatov to the army. But I also posted -it’s a two-way street. They also have to have Hakoras Hatov to the Kollel guys who provide the same protection. They have to stop their attacks on the Charedim and stop trying to force them into the army.
Also, Jews had access to the land way before the Zionists declared a State.
Health: It’s interesting. Tefillin is the only Mitzvah that the Shulchan Aruch specifically says women can’t do. A woman who actually follows the SH”A wouldn’t wear Tefillin. I wasn’t brave enough to ask this woman, though based on her Hakpada for the Poskim I’d guess that she didn’t wear Tefillin.
Shmoel: Based on several interesting situations I’ve received a lot of Shailos from a lot of people for quite a while now. I happen to meet a lot of people. Some of them are kooky. Some aren’t really Orthodox. And some honestly just want to do Mitzvos.
Shailos? You’re a posek and people come to you with shailos?
Ders: I’m not a Posek. That doesn’t stop people from asking me Shailos. I think I’ve said this before here.
What attracts them to you to ask shailos?
Ders: Good question. Probably because I do know more Halachah than them (and most people). That definitely doesn’t make me qualified though. I also do know the most important thing that a person answering Shailos needs to know, namely when to say I don’t know. I also have R’ Schachter’s phone number. That helps a lot.
(I could explain how several seemingly coincidental situations led to a lot of people having no one else to ask. Of course, everything’s Hashgacha. I just hope that I properly realized what HKBH wanted in this situation. Now that some of these people do have other people to ask, they still are more comfortable asking me, regardless of how uncomfortable I am in being asked. But I don’t think I should put those details out on the internet.)
Sam2 -“Health: It’s interesting. Tefillin is the only Mitzvah that the Shulchan Aruch specifically says women can’t do. A woman who actually follows the SH”A wouldn’t wear Tefillin.”
I looked it up.
3 things: 1. A women is totally Mufka from the Mitzva of Tzitzis because it says Bnei Yisroel, while Tefillin is just because of Zman Groma, but isn’t totally Mufka from the Mitzva.
2. The S’A says they shouldn’t do it because they can’t keep themselves clean. A Chosuve lady can and this lady thinks she’s a Yoray Shomayim. Michal Bas Shaul wore Tefillin & I think Bruria did too.
3. The Kaf Hachaim brings down a Shitta that for a woman to wear Tzitzis & Tefillin is Oiver the Issur D’oraysa of Lo Yeyeh Kli Gever Al Isha.
So whatever reason she wears Tzitzis she could wear Tefillin. The truth of the matter is – she ain’t No Yiray Shomayim. If she was, she wouldn’t put herself in a Sofek Issur D’oraysa.
She wears Tzitzis because she is a feminist and believes woman’s lib applies to Judaism. And that’s why she wears them out to show the world about her feminist beliefs. You were either too young or naive to pick up on this. She fooled you with a few lines.
I can’t ever forget the time I was in the West Side and walked past a woman wearing a Kipa Sruga. If she needed to cover hair acc. to Halacha, this didn’t cut it. If she was single -what’s the point if not to show off her feminism?!?!
Health: Source for #1 please. Also, See Sukkah 9b or 10b (I think) which seems to prove you wrong on that K’lal. Tzitzis is also a Mitzvas Asei Shehazman G’rama according to what we hold.
#2: See the Rama in 38:3 and the Nos’ei Keilim there and it’s unclear what the reason is. (I should have said Rama, not SH”A.) I have a long Shittah on that which I don’t feel like typing out here at the moment.
#3: That Kaf Hachayim is not the majority Shittah in the Poskim, though it is far from a small minority. There is good reason to say that it doesn’t apply to a Tallis Kattan though. Mentioning that was one of the reasons that I convinced her to tuck them in with.
Rav Ovadia and the Tzitz Eliezer both have T’shuvos about a single woman wearing a Kippah for Davening. R’ Ovadia’s answer might surprise you. But yes, most women who were Kippas aren’t really doing it to be Shomer Halacha and probably don’t care.
HEALTH: “Also, Jews had access to the land way before the Zionists declared a State.”
Yes, HEALTH, they had access, at the risk of having their heads chopped off.
And are you really going to compare the Jewish presence prior to the State to after? ie. The shear number of Yeshivos, seminaries, shuls, Jewish businesses, and Orthodox comminuites?
Yes it’s a two way street, but that is an entirely different discussion. The point I was making is don’t bite the hand that feeds you. Every Jew on this planet benefits from the State Israel ,especially Orthodox Jews who take advantage of the religious avenues for growth it provides. To then lamblast it and the army is utter kfooy tova. JMO of course.
BRAINFREEZE -“Yes, HEALTH, they had access, at the risk of having their heads chopped off.”
Sorry to inform you, but terrorism in Israel has increased sharply since the begining of the Medina!
“And are you really going to compare the Jewish presence prior to the State to after? ie. The shear number of Yeshivos, seminaries, shuls, Jewish businesses, and Orthodox comminuites?”
Like I posted above -Moshiach would be here already, if not for the creation of the Medina -so e/o would be there, not just some!
“Every Jew on this planet benefits from the State Israel ,especially Orthodox Jews who take advantage of the religious avenues for growth it provides. To then lamblast it and the army is utter kfooy tova. JMO of course.”
I owe them nothing. All they ever did was make my life harder. They have crazy laws about bringng in things when you visit -how long you can stay, etc. If you live there -then you owe Hakoras Hatov to the army, but until they show some Hakoras Hatov to Kollel guys -you definitely don’t have to show them any Hakoras Hatov!
Health-“Like I posted above -Moshiach would be here already if not for the creation of the Medina”
How exactly do you know this?
Sam2 -“Health: Source for #1 please. Also, See Sukkah 9b or 10b (I think) which seems to prove you wrong on that K’lal. Tzitzis is also a Mitzvas Asei Shehazman G’rama according to what we hold.
#2: See the Rama in 38:3 and the Nos’ei Keilim there and it’s unclear what the reason is. (I should have said Rama, not SH”A.) I have a long Shittah on that which I don’t feel like typing out here at the moment.
#3: That Kaf Hachayim is not the majority Shittah in the Poskim, though it is far from a small minority. There is good reason to say that it doesn’t apply to a Tallis Kattan though. Mentioning that was one of the reasons that I convinced her to tuck them in with.”
Feminism is really off topic and I don’t really want to discuss this here.
But I’m a nice guy so here goes:
#1 – Yes – Tzitzis is a Mitzva Asey Sh’Hazman Groma and the Rema brings down Shittos that they can wear it OC 17:2.
Source for my #1 -Hilchos Tzitzis OC 14:1 -Mishna Brura #2 says Bnei Yisroel and Not BNOS Yisroel. Even though he’s talking about making Tzitzis -this Drosha would apply to the whole Parsha!
#2 – Yes, but I was bringing down the Mishna Brura there. His reasoning is usually the middle path.
#3 Noone says he was. Maybe you can think of a difference between Koton & Godol but does any Achron say there is one? Even if you can differentiate – why isn’t it still a Sofek D’oraysa?
Why should she stick them in? It’s better for her to keep them out -so she doesn’t fool anybody about her Feminism.
The lady in the street wasn’t Davening -just walking with the Yarmulka.
IMHO, this lady is a Feminist. She doesn’t have Yiras Shomayim because why do something that is a Sofek D’oraysa, much worse than any other Mitzvas Asey Sh’hazman Groma? Why are these women looking to do Mitzvos that they aren’t Mechuyav in? They can’t find any Mitzvos where they are Mechuyav in? Here’s one that they are – go to a hospital or nursing home and help feed the patients. You can even find enough Frum ladies that need this that you can be busy with this 24/7.
I’m sick of these Women’s libs and then covering it up with religiousity!
Health: I think you’re making an unfair judgment about someone you’ve never met, but it is probably a true judgment to make of most women who would wear Tzitzis out.
#1: I don’t think so. B’nei Yisrael V’lo B’nos Yisrael doesn’t create an Issur. It’s explaining who the Chiyuv is on. And since women aren’t Mechuyav in Tzitzis, they are not capable in creating a Lishmah for making the Tzitzis. That doesn’t mean they aren’t M’kayim a Mitzvah K’einah Metuvah V’osah if they do it though.
#2: You’re right. According to the Mishnah B’rurah, nowadays when everyone (especially women) are much more Makpid on hygiene there is no reason to be Mocheh a woman who wears Tefillin L’Sheim Mitzvah (according to my M’halach that I got from my Rebbe’im, however, there still would be).
#3: A Machlokes Haposkim doesn’t inherently create a Safek. It could just be that her Rov Paskens like those who hold that it’s not Begged Ish.
Matan1 – “Health-“Like I posted above -Moshiach would be here already if not for the creation of the Medina”
How exactly do you know this?”
Before you comment in a topic -you should read the whole topic.
From page 2:
“Your mistake is that you think I made these assertions – Gedolim have.”
Sam2 -“#1: I don’t think so. B’nei Yisrael V’lo B’nos Yisrael doesn’t create an Issur. It’s explaining who the Chiyuv is on. And since women aren’t Mechuyav in Tzitzis, they are not capable in creating a Lishmah for making the Tzitzis. That doesn’t mean they aren’t M’kayim a Mitzvah K’einah Metuvah V’osah if they do it though.”
Sorry, you missed my point. I never meant or said it’s a Issur for them. As a matter of fact I quoted the Rema who says they can wear. What I was saying was for s/o to pick Tzitzis as the Mitzva Asey Sh’hazman Groma that they want to keep, which acc. to the Drosha I brought down -is a Mitzva that they are Mufka from, logically points to a women who’s doing it for feminism, not L’shem Shomayim.
“#2: You’re right. According to the Mishnah B’rurah, nowadays when everyone (especially women) are much more Makpid on hygiene there is no reason to be Mocheh a woman who wears Tefillin L’Sheim Mitzvah (according to my M’halach that I got from my Rebbe’im, however, there still would be).
#3: A Machlokes Haposkim doesn’t inherently create a Safek. It could just be that her Rov Paskens like those who hold that it’s not Begged Ish.”
Again you missed my point. First of all, I once asked this question here on YWN about does a Machlokes make it into a Sofek D’oraysa and hello99 answered that acc. to R’ Moshe Ztl – it actually does. Anyways, until his answer I did think like you, but even so let’s analyze this. Her Rov Paskens that it’s Not an Issur D’oraysa and like the Rema says she can put on Tzitzis for a Mitzva even though she isn’t Mechuyav in it. Why if she is doing this L’shem Shomayim would she do something that even one Shitta (maybe more) holds it’s Ossur D’oraysa?
Again, this points to her doing it for Feminism, not because she will get some Mitzva out of it!
Health: I don’t understand your point in #1. All woman are equally Mufka from all Mitzvos Asei Shehazman G’rama. And in #3 it’s fair to say that we don’t Pasken by Shittos that we don’t Pasken by. If we don’t Pasken by it then there is no separate Chiyuv to be Choshesh for it. A Machlokes only creates a Safek if the Rov or Posek being asked can’t prove which way to Pasken. If he can, then we have a P’sak and there’s no reason for him or his followers not to hold like it.
Sam2 -“Health: I don’t understand your point in #1. All woman are equally Mufka from all Mitzvos Asei Shehazman G’rama.”
You’re right you don’t. No, All Mitzvos Asey Sh’hazman Groma are not equal when it comes to women. They aren’t Mufka from the whole Parsha, just they aren’t Mechuyav in them. Tzitzis is a Mitzva where there is a Drosha that they are Mufka from the Mitzva. To pick this Mitzva that the woman wants to keep of all others doesn’t point to a woman doing it L’shem Shomayim only that she is doing it for Feminism.
And this logic also applies to picking it even though some Shittos hold it’s Ossur for a woman to wear Tzitzis. Picking a Mitzva that some Shittos hold it’s Ossur for them to keep doesn’t point to a woman doing it L’shem Shomayim only that she is doing it for Feminism!
Health: With all due respect, I think you’re making a nonexistent Chiluk between Tzitzis and other Mitzvos. I explained what that Hafka’ah meant earlier. There is no difference between Tzitzis and other Mitzvos Asei Shehazman G’rama by women.
Let me stick my pudgy nose into the fry.
I’m not sure what this means, but there’s a Targum Yonasan on ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???, ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ????.
I thought you’d be interested.
Zees: That is one of the sources for the Poskim who call it Beged Ish. Other Poskim disagree.
Sam2 -“Health: With all due respect, I think you’re making a nonexistent Chiluk between Tzitzis and other Mitzvos. I explained what that Hafka’ah meant earlier. There is no difference between Tzitzis and other Mitzvos Asei Shehazman G’rama by women.”
Obviously we disagree, but acc. to your train of thought why do we need a Drosha of Bnei Yisroel V’lo Bnos Yisroel? Simply say they can’t make Tzitzis because they are Mufka from Tzitzis because it’s a Mitzva Asei Sh’hazman Groma? So this appears – that it being a Mitzva Asei Shehazman G’rama is Not good enough to say they are Mufka from the Mitzva of Tzitzis -you need a special Drosha. So it looks like there is a difference between Tzitzis and other Mitzvos Asei Shehazman G’rama regarding women!
Health: I said that it shows they’re incapable of creating a Lishmah for making Tzitzis. That’s what the Drasha adds.
Sam2 -“Health: I said that it shows they’re incapable of creating a Lishmah for making Tzitzis. That’s what the Drasha adds.”
This makes zero sense. All the Lishmah means that they are doing it for the Mitzva. If they can’t do it for the Mitzva how in the world can they make a Brocha on them? My way says they are Mufka from Tzitzis even more than any other Mitzvas Asei Sh’hzman Groma so therefore they can’t make Tzitzis, but still can make a Bracha. So to pick this Mitzva to keep doesn’t point to L’shem Shomayim only towards Feminism.
Health: You misunderstood my use of the word “Lishmah” here. I don’t mean that they can’t have Kavanah for the Mitzvah Lishmah. I mean that the Halachah is that making the Tzitzis requires making them L’sheim Mitzvas Tzitzis. Because of that Drashah, women are incapable (no matter what their Kavanos are) of creating this Lishmah and therefore they cannot, by definition, tie Kosher Tzitzis.
Sam2 – So basically you’re saying the same thing as me, but you won’t admit it. Stop the denial -the woman is a Feminist.
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