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I think it makes a lot more sense to say that the hakamas hamedinah was Hashem telling all of us to return to EY. Many at that time were homeless following the Holocaust, and the time was ripe for all of Klal Yisroel to return. We chose not to and we planted ourselves in the USA instead of EY. If we all would have went together, Mashiach would have joined us.
Shevet Ephraim also thought the time was ripe to leave Mitzrayim (and they weren’t off by very many years), and that didn’t go very well, unfortunately. The disaster of Zionism has been many, many times worse.
The gedolim said it’s treif, we all know it’s treif, and it would have been wrong to be “oleh biChoma” even more than was done.
Rather than going against our chachamim (“Al Pi HaTorah asher Yorucha”) and against pashut pshat chaza”l, had Zionism NOT started, however, it’s certainly possible Moshiach would have been here by now.
The Satmar Rebbe ztvk’l zy’a wrote in his Seforim that the establishment of the medina delayed Moshiach.
…and yet, hakatan, Ephraim was zoche to have Yehoshua bin Nun and even the Moshiach Ben Yosef come from him because of their zerizus.
In an earlier post in this thread I brought several mekoros from sources ranging from Neviim to geonim, to achronim, to more modern authorities like Rav Shlomo Zalmen Auerbach which indicate the opposite of what you are saying. You want to be mevazeh nevim, geonim, achronim, gedolim, that’s your business.
May HKBH lift the veil from your eyes and give you the insight to see the wonder of his intervention for his people in and through the Medina that he caused to be created, May those who run the Medina do so with increasing adherence to HKBH’s will, and may we all be zoche to not just the clear, unambiguous kibutz goliyos and the end of shibud malchuyos during the ikveso demeshicho we are now in, but also to the conclusion and completion of the geuloh bimhero beyomeynu.
I just watched a small clipping of Rav Amnon Yitzchak. So poignant!
About Hallel, he says ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ????, so many are drowning in the ocean of kefirah r”l, and you say Hallel?!?
Over and over he differentiates between Eretz Yisroel, Am Yisroel and Medinat Yisroel. Says he, an institution that goes against it’s very own people, has no ???? ????.
Powerful (for people with open minds)
Hakatan, the chachomim also encouraged yidden to stay put in Europe and not leave for the treif golden Medina ( the USA ) when they still had the chance. They’ve not perfect and all knowing
Still had what chance? They never had a chance. Roosevelt wasn’t opening the doors to allow European Jews to move to America. There were strict immigration quotas. And those quotas were all filled, so it wasn’t like more immigrants were welcome to America.
Besides that at the time living in America was a spiritual danger. (Throwing tefilin in the Hudson, working on Shabbos, etc.) And better to live in a place with a physical danger to your life than to live in a place with a spiritual danger to your neshomo.
HaKatan- and what happened to Shevet Efrayim? They got massacred. What happened to the medinah? They won their war. How could you compare the two when the results were so vastly different? If the Medinah was committing the same crime that Sheivet Efrayim committed, then it should have met the same fate.
Derszoger, I’m talking going back to turn of the century. The chachomim had so little confidence that Yiddishkeit could compete,that they preferred they continue total live under Russians oppression. Had the chachomim sent rabbonim to prepare for the millions of Jews who left Europe anyway, it might have gone differently
lesschum: European Rabbonim DID come to America even before the turn of the century and thereafter. And yet the delapidated state of Judaism in America.
simcha: Just between 1948 and 1997 alone Israel suffered 20,093 war dead. There have been many more since. And many thousands more civilian terror victims. How many dead did Shevet Efraim suffer?
We would have been far better off with no State of Israel and over 25,000 Jewish lives — and countless never born children of the dead — preserved.
simcha613 – “and the time was ripe for all of Klal Yisroel to return. We chose not to and we planted ourselves in the USA instead of EY. If we all would have went together, Mashiach would have joined us.”
I’m sorry your post is way off. I agree the time was ripe, but certain Jews angered Hashem by making a Medina.
And even if it can work the other way around – the most normal way is that Moshiach is the one who brings us all to EY, not the Tzionim.
Actually Derszoger, depending on which midrash you quote, Shevet Efraim lost up to 300,000 men.
yichusdik, I re-read your post you referred to.
Nothing you wrote supports the Avoda Zara of Zionism which, once again, was roundly and almost universally by all gedolim condemned from the 1800s and on.
If you were so concerned about being mevazeh neviim, acharonim, etc., you’d probably open your own eyes to the truth of the terrible meridah that is Zionism rather than ignoring the gemara, Rambam, Ramban, et al.
simcha613, as derszoger already posted, Israel has certainly not fared better than, lihavdil, Shevet Efraim. Shlomo HaMalech wrote “Hishbati Eschem Binos Yerushalayim…BiAylos Hasadeh”, etc. and, unfortunately, anyone following the news in the 1990s read about unimaginably horrific calamities that Acheinu Binei Yisrael experienced in Eretz Yisrael. Obviously, none of this and more would have happened had the Zionists not ignored the gedolim…
But, besides that, Zionism is not “worthwhile” even if “only” one Jew would have been harmed. And, unfortunately, many, many, more than one were harmed, R”L. It is quite clear that Zionism has been a major disaster for our people, R”L.
Having a State isn’t worth one lost Jewish life, let alone the blood of over 25,000 Jews.
They’ve not perfect and all knowing
I think they’re a lot more ‘perfect and all knowing’ than daas-baal-habayis posters here. They knew perfectly well what they were doing. Where are the descendants of the multitudes of Jewish immigrants of that era? TOTALLY WIPED OUT!! Zilch. ZERO. How many times do we find totally assimilated ‘Jewish’ families all over the Americana?!
Besides, this is the same calling as the previous ‘isms’ (Haskala etc) – see! The Rabbis don’t know everything. We’re smarter then them! Us against ‘them’. I don’t know about you, I chose to have the Gedolim as my leaders, my guiding light, my admiration.
Read what Rabbi Miller ztz”l writes (quoting from memory), “the secular Jews ask ‘shall we let the Rabbis lead us like blind sheep..?’ Indeed, we are like blind sheep, a Jewish nation without it’s leaders is truly like a blind sheep..”
Zees: The Gedolim are not always right. History shows us that staying in Europe immediately before the Holocaust was one of the major mistakes they have made in modern history. That being said, it is utterly foolish and arrogant to say, “Well, they messed up once so I’ll assume they’re wrong on anything I want to disagree with them with.”
What mistake, Sam? Which country was willing to accept the emmigration of 18 million European Jews. Certainly not America and Franklin Roosevelt. America had strict immigration quotas, AND THEY WERE FULLY EXHAUSTED every year. So there was no openings for any additional immigration to the US. And you know what Roosevelt did with ships with Jews that came here without authorization. You heard about the MS St. Louis, didn’t you?
So stop the anti-semitic canard that the rabbonim stopped anyone from coming to the US. The US was closed to additional immigration.
Sam2, Derszoger, A few comments. First, by almost all accounts, there were about 12 million Jews in Europe and the Soviet Union pre war, and about 18 million Jews in the world overall.
Second, Sam, Derszoger is partially right. By 1938, the western countries had effectively closed their doors to Jewish immigration. The notorious Evian conference detailed their refusal to allow for more than a small number of Jewish European emigrants and refugees. However, Between Hitler’s rise to power in 1933 and late 1937 when the doors began to close more and more, there were opportunities to leave; And it was less difficult to get into Mandate Palestine before 1937 as well.
1937 was prior to the systematic murder of Jews. Only a Navi could have predicted the future and have known at that time that the Nazis would begin mass murdering the Jews in the future.
Hakatan, My grandfather and great grandfather (a’h) were chareidi, were connected to the greatest torah leaders of their time and place, in prewar Galitzia, and had a significant mesorah from their rabbinic forebears. They were in themselves very incvolved in the community. They wore chassidish levush on shabbes and yom tov in Krakow – bekeshe and shtraimel – and do you know where they davened? the Mizrachi shul. I get my mesorah from them, not the likes of you.
My other grandfather and grandmother were yerushalmim, my grandfather went to the original eitz chaim yeshiva, and my great uncle was a talmid at the chevron yeshiva when it was in chevron. They passed on a love of torah, am yisroel and ertez yisroel that crystallized itself in religious zionism. Their mesorah is also clear.
It is unfortunate that you didn’t have the brocho of having such a clear mesorah.
About 10 years ago, a friend gave me the sefer Em Habonim Semeicha By Rav Yissochor Teichtal, and his sources supporting a return to eretz yisroel and jewish nationalism are so numerous as to make it impossible to quote them here. Read the sefer.
I don’t know whose kool aid you’re drinking, but the enterprise of the medina as imperfect as it is is not failing, it is thriving. And within that thriving enterprise, more torah is being learned and supported than ever in Jewish history. Perhaps it is that obvious contradiction of the predictions of those who hate it that has you up in arms, but it will continue to thrive and still welcome you, despite your disdain.
Avhaben, there were many people who were warning of the coming churban in 1937. Zeev Jabotinsky created an evacuation plan in 1936. I guess that means by your standards he was a Novi.
Not the least indication would have been the words Hitler (Y’SH) himself wrote in Mein Kampf in the twenties, where he elucidated what he wanted to do to the Jews, the edicts when he took power, and the Nuremberg laws of 1936. One had only to look at Julius Streicher’s Der Stuermer, or see such propaganda works as ‘The Eternal Jew”. They all pointed precisely towards genocide.
HaKatan has the brocha of a mesorah that long predates zionism.
The Sefer Aim HaBanim Semecha doesn’t contain anything new. It’s a collection of all the old Zionist arguments that have long been disproven. The truth is, his position stood no chance to begin with, because even though Rav Teichtel was a Talmid Chacham, he was opposing the collective Torah knowledge of the greatest Torah giants, including but not limited to Rav Chaim Brisker, Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh, The Chofetz Chaim, the Rogachover Gaon, The Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab), the Belzer Rebbe (R. Yisachar Dov), the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzensky, all who were opposed to Zionism and the creation of a State. So he was really quite outgunned from the start. The most extensive work on this topic is of course the Satmar Rav’s Vayoel Moshe, which disproves just about every Zionist “proof” ever conceived.
Example: On page 147 he addresses a powerful statement in Ahavas Yonason by R. Yonason Eyebuschitz ZT”L that it is absolutely prohibited for Jews to take over Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, even if all the nations want them to, which is kind of a problem for a religious Zionist like Rabbi Teichtel. This is his response: “You should understand that the words of Rav Yonason only apply when there is no sign from heaven that we should all abandon the lands of Chutz Laaretz, meaning, when Jews can live peacefully outside of Eretz Yisroel … but not nowadays, when the words of the prophet came true, [that Jews will be hunted down by goyim]. So when the nations give us permission to return to our land, can there be any doubt that it is the will of Hashem that we return to Eretz Yisroel? I am certain, that if Rav Yonason Eyebushitz was living with us today and saw the terrible golus that we endure, he himself would say to us: ‘Brother Jews! The time has come for you to go to Eretz Yisroel, for this is the will of Hashem, for it is not coincidence what has happened to us in Golus, but rather it is the finger of G-d pointing to us to rise from golus…”
And it gets much, much, worse. This attitude that “everyone has to interpret the world the way I do” often passes the line into the realm of the absurd. On page 98 he deals with the Minchas Elozor, who was a vehement opponent of Zionism. He was vehemently critical in general, actually, when it came to protecting the Torah. And nobody was beyond his scrutiny. Here are some quotes:
Ders: While you have some good Ta’anas against the Eim Habanim S’meichah, I think you overstepped some bounds in how you refer to him. He was a tremendous Talmid Chacham and deserves your (and everyone’s) respect, whether or not you have political (or Halachic) issues with him or his Sefer.
Derszoger, if you are going to lift critiques word for word from the moderator of Frumteens.com, or from a thread where Joseph first copied it from frumteens a year ago,
(http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/mi-sheberach-for-tzahal)
you could at least quoute it bshem omro, instead of plagiarizing it… I checked. Word for word.
Oh, by the way, getting haskomos in 1944 in Hungary and Slovakia when you are on the run from the Nazis is kind of a tall order for anyone. I’m just saying.
yichusdik -“My other grandfather and grandmother were yerushalmim, my grandfather went to the original eitz chaim yeshiva,”
And so did my Zaida go from Europe to Yerushalyim and my Bubba’s family who also came from Europe to Yerushalyim happened to be close to the Minchas Elozer (Munkatcher Rebbe). So it’s not a contradiction to have Yichus who are pro-Yishuv Haaretz and Not Tzionim like we know nowadays.
My family emigrated to this side of the Altlantic, but what happened to a lot that stayed there is they went with the flow.
At that time (30’s, 40’s & 50’s) you had to be a Odom Godol not to get swallowed up with the Zionist fervor!
Yichus: Ah, I remember the Moderator from Frumteens. I have spent years trying to clean up some of his messes. What’s sad is that so many teenagers believed his baseless and anti-Torah propaganda. I think his “P’sak” that girls should watch television before learning Gemara takes the cake though.
Yichus: Ah, I remember the Moderator from Frumteens. I have spent years trying to clean up some of his messes. What’s sad is that so many teenagers believed his baseless and anti-Torah propaganda. I think his “P’sak” that girls should watch television before learning Gemara takes the cake though.
Much as I despise Joe, I actually agree with that idea. I think it is better for girls to watch television than to learn gemara. I am much less concerned about the girl who is watching television.
PBA: Really? If a girl who comes to you and says, “I’m bored after school and want to learn Gemara” you would honestly respond, “So go watch television”?
Yes I would. And I have a good game we can play now.
You’ll argue my side, and I’ll argue your side. I bet we can do it successfully enough, that each of us will have nothing further to add.
PBA: Nope, I can’t really argue your side. I mean, if you hold it’s Assur then it’s Assur and there’s nothing to discuss. There is not much to rely on K’negged the Prishah though (there’s a Tzitz Eliezer that sort of draws an inference from the Gemara against him, but it’s not so Pashut). Your main Ta’ana is that most girls who want to learn want to learn for feminist reasons and that it could lead them to bad things down the line. My line of thinking is Chas V’shalom to make girls give up Mitzvos just because some Apikorsim misused them. Do we stop wearing Tztitzis just because many Js for J wear them?
Well, actually, I guess I just summarized both sides. Would you look at that.
Sam2: Having feminist feelings, while very wrong, is probably not apikorsus. So a girl is probably subconciously doing it for feministic reasons without even realizing it.
Shmoel: I don’t understand your point.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with what R’ Teichtal did for his haskamos. He knew no one would give haskamos to the content of the sefer, probably because it was so controversial. So he used haskamos of his previous seforim not to praise the content of the sefer, but the competency of the author. I don’t see an issue with this at all.
Sorry, I have been busy.
Your main Ta’ana is that most girls who want to learn want to learn for feminist reasons and that it could lead them to bad things down the line. My line of thinking is Chas V’shalom to make girls give up Mitzvos just because some Apikorsim misused them. Do we stop wearing Tztitzis just because many Js for J wear them?
I think I would say it differently; my main tayna is connected to feminism, but I don’t think it is that it will lead to bad things down the line.
I don’t oppose feminism as applied to Judaism because it will lead to taking down the mechitza, or to anything else actually assur. If that was the only concern, I don’t know what my stance would be.
I oppose feminism as applied to Judaism, because it is wrong itself. The entire premise of a girl wanting to apply feminism to Jewish practice, is that Jewish practice otherwise treats women inappropriately. Saying that, is a serious chillul Hashem, and is literally an attack on Hashem and on the Torah. That is what I oppose.
Now look at the difference in focus, between what I’m talking about and what you’re talking about. You’re talking about issurim, and what we need to do, and what we don’t need to do, and what we can get around, and what we can’t get around, and what there is a shitta to rely on, and what there is no shitta to rely on.
My Judaism is not like that. My Judaism is about doing what Hashem wants us to do–that is, what we should
do. And how we should feel, and think. Hashem does not want women to learn gemara–chazal were clear about that. Hashem does not want us to pursue value systems which conflict with the Torah–Hashem wants us to pursue the value system of the Torah.
So you see, that while orthodox religions are usually criticized for making religion into a formalistic system divorced from its values, it is actually the opposite here. The chareidim are the ones trying to live the values of the torah, while I sometimes feel that others are trying to live their own values, and align the Torah with that.
I need to go again, but I’ll think about what your answer would be, and I post again before you do, I’ll try to write one up.
I am a Zionist and proud of it. There is nothing anybody in this world could say to me that will change my mind, not even for a second. I support the IDF and all the brave men and women who serve in it. Be it Haredi or one from the most secular kibbutz you can find.
Yes no doubt the girl watching television is much more likely to build a bayis neeman be’yisrael than the girl who wants to learn.
Popa, extremely well written. I knew your stance all along, you put it down so clearly here.
PBA: Interesting. I have long joked that I am an Orthodox feminist. What is an Orthodox feminist? Quite simply, it’s someone who thinks that women should be allowed to do what Halachah allows them to do. When someone tells a woman it’s Assur to make a M’zuman of 3 women, they are denying a black-on-white Mishnah and S’if in the Shulchan Aruch. So I don’t have any problem whatsoever with a girl learning-so long as she actually wants to learn (like the Prisha) and is not force-fed her learning. I think it’s quite obvious. Mandatory girls Gemara classes are a straight-up violation of Chazal. Optional ones should be okay.
Though I have MANY problems with MANY of the things the so-called government of Israel does, those who post all the vicious and venomous anti-Israel comments here clearly have no idea of what the physical and EMOTIONAL state of world Jewry was at the end of the Shoah, and can not and DO not have any musag AT ALL of what life as a Jew TODAY would be like (anywhere in the world) if there was no state of Israel.
mikehall12382 -“I am a Zionist and proud of it. There is nothing anybody in this world could say to me that will change my mind, not even for a second.”
I am an ANTI-Zionist and proud of it. There is nothing anybody in this world could say to me that will change my mind, not even for a second.
AinOhdMilvado -“those who post all the vicious and venomous anti-Israel comments here clearly have no idea of what the physical and EMOTIONAL state of world Jewry was at the end of the Shoah,”
It’s true I don’t, but I wasn’t born yet. But the Brisker Rov & the Satmar Rebbe who lived through the Holocaust were extremely Anti-Zionist. These Gedolim knew what was good for the Yidden, not the likes of you.
“and can not and DO not have any musag AT ALL of what life as a Jew TODAY would be like (anywhere in the world) if there was no state of Israel.”
Acc. to the Gedolim I just mentioned, life for Jews would be much better. The only reason you think differently is because you have been drinking the Zionist Kool-aid your whole life!
What is an Orthodox feminist? Quite simply, it’s someone who thinks that women should be allowed to do what Halachah allows them to do.
I see. I prefer to focus on doing what Hashem wants us to do. That is my definition of Orthodox.
“HaKatan has the brocha of a mesorah that long predates zionism”
Zionism has 3000+ years of history. About 100 years ago some stripped G-d out of Zionism. In reaction to that Anti-Zionism was created.
Josh31…
You got that exactly right!
Health…
I am forced to assume that, according to you and “the likes of you” that the abnormal, unnatural victories of the IDF in ’48, ’67, and ’73, were due to the incredible SUPERMEN of the IDF since HaSh-m (according to you and “the likes of you”) opposes the state and believe that HKB”H would not have been responsible for all those victories for the traif medina. Still, – accounting for all the Scud missiles that fell in Israel during the Gulf War, and the thousands of katyushas and kassams that have fallen in more recent years with, B”H, extremely limited injury or damage – well, that is a bit harder to explain.
And b.t.w. MY Zionist “kool-aid”, is absolutely DELICIOUS, and as Josh31 above hinted at, has a mehadrin hechsher that is over 3,000 years old. You can reference it throughout Tana”ch.
PBA- “My Judaism is not like that. My Judaism is about doing what Hashem wants us to do–that is, what we should
do. And how we should feel, and think. Hashem does not want women to learn gemara–chazal were clear about that.”
I’m sorry, but it is not clear from Chazal that Hashem does not want women to learn Gemara. Have you ever looked up the Halachah in the S”A? Did you know that it says that women receive schar for learning? I don’t know the way G-d works, but logic dictates that G-d would not give reward to women for doing something that He does not want them to do.
PBA: That is my definition of Orthodox as well. Hence, a woman who wants to do something that Hashem wants (or permits and wants as an Einah Metzuvah V’osah) should be allowed to do it and should not be stopped by society. That is the extent and entirety of my “feminism”.
Shulchan Aruch:
“tzivu chaza”l shelo yilmad adam es bito torah mipnei sherov hanashim ein da’atan michuvanos l’hislamed u’motzios divrei torah l’divrei havai l’phi anius da’atan, amru chaza”l kol hamilamed es bito torah k’ilu milamda tiflus bameh divorim amurim torah she’bal peh, aval torah she’bicsav…”.
simcha: Which part “is not clear”?
Ders: The part that the Prishah points out.
Again you miss the beginning- “ishah shelamdah Torah yeish lah sechar aval lo kisechar ha’ish mipnei she’einah metzuvaeh ve’oseh ve’af al pi sheyeish lah secahr tzivu chazal shelo yilmad etc…”
So you have to reconcile the beginning of that halachah that they have sechar with the end that it is not allowed to be taught to them. If you say that there is an issur for women to learn Gemara, why would S”A add the part that they receive sechar? What does that add practically?
So, you could argue that it adds nothing practically, and the S”A was just saying that theoretically they receive sechar but Chazal made an issur for them to learn. IMHO, if that were the case, S”A should have left it out. Are there any other Mitzvos that women are theoretically allowed to do and probably receive sechar for it but Chazal assured it, and the S”A told us all that? Does the S”A say that women receive sechar for wearing tzitizs or tefilin, but Chazal said they aren’t allowed to?
The way I’ve learned it is that a woman is allowed to learn Gemara and she receives sechar for it, as long as she genuinely wants to learn for lishmah reasons. However it cannot be taught to her, in other words it cannot be imposed on her. The issur is on the male (or female) teacher, not the female learner. The teacher has the responsibility to make sure that she wants to do it for the right reasons, and only then can she be taught.
Just to clarify- the reason why I understand that when the S”A says one is not allowed to teach his daughter Torah means it cannot be imposed on her, is because assuming that a woman is allowed to learn Gemara (which would explain why the S”A chose to tell us that they receive sechar for learning), I don’t think the S”A means they are allowed to learn but they are not allowed to be taught. How can you learn without being taught?
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