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I often see young adults or older girls shamusing ,laughing etc. right in middle the street when the men go and come from shul in the late evening. Wouldn”t it be appropiate if they would at least move to the side or against the wall and lower their tone of voice? Or am I just over doing???
absan – no ive gotten many complaints about these kinds of girls.
absan, you’re absolutely correct.
Absan, you are absolutely right, but I don’t think that they realize what it looks like. Most of the time, it is hard for people to see how they look to others. People get used to doing things like that, so then they just think it is normal. This applies to many areas of life, but particularly to tznius, I think.
What’s the reason they are right in front of the shul? Or in that neighborhood? Do they live right near there or is there a shopping mall with restaurants to hang out near the shul?
They are probably waiting for someone to come out of shul. They probably don’t realize they are bothering anyone. They have the same rights to stand there and talk as you do, it’s a free country. If it really bothers you speak to their parents if you know them.
Oh dear there are teenage girls who like to talk and laugh? stop the presses!!!
Why don’t the men just walk on the side or against the wall?
And cover their ears too
I’m wondering why people start topics with meaningless titles like “wondering???” and “How to help.”
“Or am I just over doing???”
Yes.
“”Or am I just over doing???”
Yes.”
NO.
popa_bar_abba – why should they have too just because of theirs not tznius girls? the girls should start being tnius.
I’m just about over doing. Iv’e been doing all day.
Im wondering if i live in the wrong neighborhood or daven maariv at the wrong shul. I never see young adults or older girls, (or younger girls or older adults) just shmoozing or laughing anywhere near the front of the shul.
“popa_bar_abba – why should they have too just because of theirs not tznius girls? the girls should start being tnius.”
Right on Sparky! Too many people have the attitude that they can do what they want and the guy shouldn’t look!! That’s not the Torah’s hashkafa! According to the Torah, it’s a terrible thing to be machshil others by being untznius.
Rav Moshe has a teshuva where he talks about how terrible it is when girls wear short skirts because they are causing others to do aveiros.
Girls should not be laughing at screaming levels, nor shreiking, nor be standing right in middle of the road, but it’s a free country. You aren’t crazy, I also don’t think it’s tniyus for young men to do the same behaivors.
Shopping613 – i agree. mods can you please change my subtitle to something more appropriate?
There’s nothing “not tznius” about women talking and laughing in public. For heaven’s sake.
Actually there is. Jewish women are not “girls off the street”. We are an Am Hanivchar, an especial unique nation with higher standards. Es passt nisht. We behave as prices and princesses.
It’s not tznius for anyone to talk loudly in the street – men or women.
Pray tell, what makes talking and laughing a “girl off the street”?
this is one of those really bad comments that fans the flames between different hashkafos.
the op (if he wasnt just trying to provoke) was painting a picture that was not a real match to his words. Other people are responding to the picture of boisterous, loud, immodest behavior and those who read the post are hearing it being responded to as it was written.
This happens all the time and makes huge rifts. Case in point, the kugel story.
I hate rifts. i hate hate. i hate people fighting because they will jump on anything someone else says purely because of who said it (not here but in other threads)
***pulling hair out***
and in two seconds “someone” will feel a need to argue with me becuse they will assume I am chareidi bashing – instead of hearing my point – and will feel obligated to negate it whether it is right or not.
And i hate that too.
What’s this kugel story I keep hearing about?
Syag Lchochma, I hear your point about people arguing just because they are “hearing” something differently. And it is annoying when people get into stupid arguments about things. However, in this case, I do not agree with your take on the situation.
“I often see young adults or older girls shamusing ,laughing etc. right in middle the street when the men go and come from shul in the late evening. Wouldn”t it be appropiate if they would at least move to the side or against the wall and lower their tone of voice?”
If you look at his words and not just the “tone”, he writes that the girls should move to the side. It sounds like they are in the middle of the street in a place where the men have to walk on their way in and out of shul. It is inappropriate for girls to be standing right where men are walking out of shul. He writes that they should move to the side – he doesn’t say they should get off the street and go inside, just that they should have the courtesy to move to the side.
He also writes that they should lower their voices. It sounds like they are being very loud. I mean it is technically possible that they were talking in a regular tone of voice and he thinks that they should whisper, but I did not want to be judgmental and assume that he is the kind of person who thinks that girls have to whisper in public. If he were that kind of person, he probably would have said that they should stop talking in the street which is not what he said.
It gets me really annoyed when I pass a group of men/bachurim talking on street corners. It’s usually too large for me to pass by with my stroller and I can’t exactly go on the avenue with it. I have to somehow try to get them to realize someone has to pass without yelling or anything. Annoying.
No, Syag. Keep your hair!!
I just said that we should act in a more refined manner. As Meno wrote – men and women. It’s just that women (are supposed to) have a more internal and natural sense of privacy, discreetness, modesty. And JF there’s nothing wrong with talking or laughing in the street. If others can hear it a block away, that’s being “girl off the street”. Of course as Syag put it, it differs from community to community. Things that stand out in one community are perfectly fine in another.
But as a general rule one should strive to behave as a prince and princess of HaShem. That’s who we actually are. Remembering that and acting as such helps us in our strive to do His bidding. We are not commoners off the street.
May all our street be filled with glee and laughter!!!!
What’s this kugel story I keep hearing about?
Someone had to go somewhere after licht bentshen. While she was there, another woman handed her a kugel and said “here, take this”. So she asked why? So the other woman explained that her mother in law was by her for shabbos. So she pretended she was going to bring someone who had a baby or something a kugel. And she can’t come back with the kugel! (As related on imamother).
“popa_bar_abba – why should they have too just because of theirs not tznius girls? the girls should start being tnius.”
Right on Sparky! Too many people have the attitude that they can do what they want and the guy shouldn’t look!! That’s not the Torah’s hashkafa! According to the Torah, it’s a terrible thing to be machshil others by being untznius.
Maybe, but meanwhile, since the women are doing what they’re doing, at least the men have to do what they can.
No, Syag. Keep your hair!!
is that supposed to be funny or just rude?
gamanit – haha
Sorry Syag, you wrote ***pulling hair out***
Unless you’re into the “Why do women wear expensive sheitels?” one…
(I’m generally not rude)
Popa bar Abba: “Maybe, but meanwhile, since the women are doing what they’re doing, at least the men have to do what they can.”
Agreed!
To say something positive about Am Yisroel during the Nine Days – I was about to walk down an outside staircase the other day and two Israeli Chassidish men were standing on the top of the staircase one on each side. It’s not assur for a girl to walk between 2 men, but I believe that it’s brought down that its’ better not to, and it’s something I usually try to be makpid on.
So I debated in my head for half a second about what to do (just walk down the stairs anyhow, wait to see if they will move, or walk around a different way that takes about 2 extra seconds) Before I had a chance to think too much, they saw me and moved to the side. I thought that was really nice of them!
sorry,lf, and thanks for explaining. I did not mean it literally so I didn’t connect your comment to what I wrote
lilmod, I beleive it’s assur. I remember learning about it, I don’t know what sefer it is in but it also says it’s assur to walk between 2 dogs in the same place….
Shopping – that’s a man walking between 2 women or 2 dogs and one more (maybe pigs?) Each one is for a different reason obviously.
There is an inyan of a woman not walking between 2 men and I think some may hold it’s assur gamur but I think there are other opinions and I think most posken that it’s not mamash assur.
It could be that these men held it was assur gamur. That would make sense, since they probably thought that I was much more modern than them so it seems unlikely that they would have assumed that I’m makpid on something that they don’t consider to be assur.
lilmod, why would anyone mistakenly think you’re more modern than them? You are obviously very frum and eidel.
Joseph – thanks for the compliment!
It has to do with different mentalities and societal norms. I have the feeling that to an Israeli Yerushalmi Chassid I may look modern even though I am very tznius imho. My hair is longer than your typical Israeli Chassidish girl’s is, and there could be undefinable style differences – things that I may not even be able to say what they are.
Basically, the fact that I don’t look like an Israeli Chassidish girl (since I’m not one) may make me look modern to them. It’s the same way that if I see a girl or guy dressed in a way that is typically considered “modern” then even if they are technically tznius, I may automatically think of them as more modern than someone who is dressed more “yeshivish” and while I may assume they are makpid on halacha, I might not assume that they are makpid on things that are not strictly halacha but that Yeshivish people are makpid on.
“lilmod, why would anyone mistakenly think you’re more modern than them? You are obviously very frum and eidel.
“
That’s a little bit creepy compliments to a girl like that.
Shopping and lilmod
I believe that sefer is a Gemarah (somewhere). And it goes both ways, a man between two women and a woman between two men. (lilmod should have learned that!)
That’s right lf,
But it has to do with kishuf (witchcraft) the Gemara is in the end of pesachim
Idk if the Halacha is based off of that
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