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“I was merely explaining the “jump” between public area–public restroom”
Thats great, but, the implied attribution to me (not by you) is what I took issue with.
apushatayid- the reason I addressed my post to you was because you referenced relieving oneself. I was just comparing the options one has in either situation without elaborating on your example.
If the baby needs to eat, he needs to eat. Obviously its better if the mom uses a nursing cover but sometimes its not possible. Taking care of children superceeds many other mitzvos. For example if your davening shemoneh esrei and a baby is crying and no one else is there you are allowed to go get the baby.
Joseph,
You fail to see a difference in severity between exposing what you suggested and what I suggested?
Sorry, only someone woefully infected with the perverse mores of secular society would believe that a mother nursing “publicly” is worse than someone immodestly dressed.
To L&uL
these are NOT two entirely different scenarios. Even among non-frum women, most will seek to discreetly nurse even in public (cover over with blanket or something like that). It may not be “strictly tziniusdkik by your standards but still discreet. The few wild-eyed nursing fanatics who do it openly and “in your face” are not the ones who really care about their children as much as their own political agendas. Some insist on nursing their children until they reach school age and the mother is told she cannot come on the school bus. At least in my experience, there are very few of these types of women in the frum community and most exercise common sense. Agree the my definition of “common sense” may clash with your definition of 100 percent tziniusdik/.apushatayid,
I’m sure there is plenty of medical literature about the dangers of holding oneself back from reliving themselves, yet, noone will advocate doing so in the middle of the mall or in front of others in a restaurant.
1. Bad comparison – the activities you reference leave behind foul and potentially infected waste products. Even if modesty were completely removed from the equation, those activities would still be forbidden in public areas and food service facilities. Nursing leaves behind no waste.
2. Most public and private spaces provide ample access to facilities for taking care of those needs. Although increasing, most public and private spaces provide little to no facilities for nursing.
3. There is no comparison between the immodest exposure of your examples and the little to no exposure from nursing. Immodest dress is way worse, but due to a misogynistic and anti-child secular culture, many people are nonsensically more offended by nursing.The discussion is not, should a woman be allowed to nurse in public areas, of course she should, the only discussion is, should government legislate that they be properly covered while doing so.
If the government is to begin legislating public modesty, dress codes would be a much higher priority than nursing mothers. Except that secular culture is insane.
this conversation is silly. Implying that you are allowed to expose yourself while or in order to feed a baby is nonsense. When people talk about being allowed to nurse in public are they really talking about showing skin?! Or are you talking about being completely covered but still complaining that it isn’t appropriate?
And the people fighting that there nursing in public trumps all rules, are you implying that because you are nursing you can uncover yourself?! Is everyone here really even having the same conversation?
Next point, in 17 years of nursing, I cannot ever say that my baby was so hungry that I just couldn’t help but to disrobe in front of people. It’s not like vomiting folks, you can find a place without women, or stay covered COMPLETELY, or let your baby cry til you are safe somewhere and don’t let it happen again. I have had to nurse a baby while they were buckled in a car seat of a moving car somewhere on a highway between rest stops and I wouldn’t have considered not covering either myself or the windows in. Comparing it to interrupting shmona esrei is beyond apples and oranges.The two sides could only be”
Nursing in public – COMPLETELY COVERED vs
no nursing in public – even tho you are COMPLETELY COVEREDanyone implying that tznius allows for exposure is probably either pushing an agenda or having some parenting struggles
Gadolhadorah,
Even among non-frum women, most will seek to discreetly nurse even in public
This speaks to the need for private nursing spaces in public places. In a society that cherishes children, it’s as necessary as the necessary, and those spaces should not be in the necessary.
Avram, someone not infected with the perverse mores of secular society would consider a woman in a short sleeve shirt in public as severely worse than a woman publicly nursing in the open?
Joseph,
Avram, someone not infected with the perverse mores of secular society would consider a woman in a short sleeve shirt in public as severely worse than a woman publicly nursing in the open?
Provided we are not talking about a “wild eyed” activist as Gadolhadorah described above, yes. Most women, Jewish or not, are uncomfortable nursing in a public place, and try to do so as discreetly as possible. One would have to be invading her space terribly to see anything problematic. There is no flaunting going on. If airports, restaurants, waiting rooms, etc. had clean, comfortable, and private nursing spaces available, I think the vast majority of mothers would happily take advantage of them.
This topic has already been discussed a lot here in the CR, for anyone that wants to bother finding the threads.
A few points I need to add to this discussion:
I don’t know the source, so feel free to chime in, but halachikally, a woman’s breast when nursing is compared to a hand feeding her child. The tznius issue involved is if she exposes other parts of her chest or her shoulders. Again, please help me out with a source.
Allowing women in the US to nurse in public, since most women are actually uncomfortable with it, is not liberalism. Instead, liberal women should be demanding that malls and other public spaces offer them a safe, women only place to breastfeed such as a women’s lounge. If it’s perfectly legal and okay to do so publicly, why should businesses or government institutions bother accommodating women in this regard? That’s not to say law enforcement should start arresting women that do otherwise, just ignore it if she’s discreet about it, or politely ask her to cover up if she’s not. The issue shouldn’t be breastfeeding per se, which may be a necessity, but exposure.
Back to Halacha, it is assur to nurse a baby in an actual restroom, just as you may not eat in a bathroom. Perhaps in extenuating circumstances exceptions may be made so ask your Rabbi if this pertains to you. However, don’t think that the lady that nurses in a public bathroom is frummer than the one that does so on a park bench fully covered — it’s really not that simple.
Wow Avram in MD, I hadn’t seen your post while I was working on mine, but we obviously share some ideas. Couldn’t agree with you more.
Avram, we’re taking here about the small minority of women who in-your-face do nurse in public. Not the common sense majority (including non-Jewish) that will seek a private area — and in the absence of that availability coupled with the absolute unavoidable necessity of nursing without waiting until in a more private venue, will ensure steps to hide their nursing.
The former is clearly worse than a short-sleeved woman. Just as a woman in public in swimwear is worse than a short-sleeved woman. Even though both are offensive to public morality there are surely some more severe violations than others.
And allow me to note, despite her preferring I not, that I fully agree with Syag Lchochma. (Hopefully this won’t preclude others from agreeing with Syag.)
Syag Lchochma,
Comparing it to interrupting shmona esrei is beyond apples and oranges.
I did not see the context in which a comparison to interrupting davening was made in this thread, but I learned that a woman is permitted to interrupt her Shemoneh Esrei for her crying baby, although she should first try distractions like snapping fingers.
The two sides could only be”
Nursing in public – COMPLETELY COVERED vs
no nursing in public – even tho you are COMPLETELY COVEREDanyone implying that tznius allows for exposure is probably either pushing an agenda or having some parenting struggles
I agree that those are the two positions in this argument that would be consistent with a frum lifestyle, and will place myself in the former camp (with caveats). That said, I have a big problem with the attitude and motives of a shopping mall storekeeper who has no problem with immodestly dressed women wandering his store, but harasses a mother who is quietly nursing her child. To me, the discrepancies in the response of such a storekeeper is reflective of a perverse culture. And people like the storekeeper are the reason so many states have laws protecting nursing mothers in the first place.
avrum –
August 30, 2017 11:44 am at 11:44 am
#1351238
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chabadgalParticipant
If the baby needs to eat, he needs to eat. Obviously its better if the mom uses a nursing cover but sometimes its not possible. Taking care of children superceeds many other mitzvos. For example if your davening shemoneh esrei and a baby is crying and no one else is there you are allowed to go get the baby.I fully agree that you can interrupt davening,, I was commenting that it is a totally different, non-comparable issue.
Joseph,
The former is clearly worse than a short-sleeved woman.
Yes, but NOT because of the nursing, but rather the increased exposure in comparison. Less or no exposure, then the immodest dress is worse, even if everyone knows she’s nursing.
Syag- this comment of yours actually made me laugh:
“Next point, in 17 years of nursing, I cannot ever say that my baby was so hungry…”
I assume you were talking about more than 1 baby over those 17 years, but the way it was phrased….
Also, how did you manage to nurse a baby buckled in a car seat? na, you don’t have to answer that one, but I am impressed.” That said, I have a big problem with the attitude and motives of a shopping mall storekeeper who has no problem with immodestly dressed women wandering his store, but harasses a mother who is quietly nursing her child. To me, the discrepancies in the response of such a storekeeper is reflective of a perverse culture. And people like the storekeeper are the reason so many states have laws protecting nursing mothers in the first place.”
never experienced such a thing, didn’t realize people still do.
Agree fullyAvram, yes, more exposure is what’s being referred to. I didn’t think it needed to be spelled out.
“I assume you were talking about more than 1 baby over those 17 years, but the way it was phrased….”
ha ha! yes, I had to stop when the first turned 10 so it was actually 2 kids. (just kidding!!)
“Also, how did you manage to nurse a baby buckled in a car seat? na, you don’t have to answer that one, but I am impressed.”
thanks for the pass…..don’t think I could dredge up those memories in quite that much detail…not my fondest moments!
GH – I suggest you go back and reread what you wrote in your first post. You wrote something there that is completely different from what you are writing here.
You seem to be confusing two different issues here. As SYAG pointed out, the two issues are:
1. Is it a problem for women to nurse in public without trying to cover themselves?
2. Is it a problem for women to nurse in public even if they are trying to cover themselves?All of the posters here (unless I missed a post somewhere) who were in the opposition only referred to women who nurse without trying to cover themselves. No one in the opposition discussed the second issue (unless I missed a post somewhere).
If you do in fact agree that women who nurse in public should try to cover themselves, then you are not disagreeing with those posters, and you made a mistake in the way you phrased things in your first post.
You wrote there that it is the women’s CHOICE if she wants to try to nurse tzniusly, and that no one should be bothered by it. Personally, I found that statement offensive. People are not allowed to do whatever they want to and tell others that it shouldn’t bother them. We do have a Torah and it does set guidelines for behavior and people are not allowed to just do whatever they want to.
It sounds now like that is not what you meant and you didn’t realize the implication of your words. That is okay – that happens to people all the time. But if that is the case, then please clarify that that was not what you meant and that you take back your words in that post.
On the other hand, if that was what you meant, then what you have written in your last two posts was not an accurate expression of your opinion, so then you should take back what you wrote there.
SYAG – thank you for clarifying that it should not be necessary for a mother to nurse in an untznius fashion in public. That was an aspect of the topic that I can’t comment on, since I have no experience with it, so I am glad that someone with experience did comment on it.
Although, come to think of it, since I have never in my life seen a Frum woman nurse in an untznius fashion in public, despite the fact that I live in Frum communities where, B”H, people have lots of kids bli ayin hara, and yet, I have never heard of a baby dying of starvation in these communities, it does seem pretty clear that that is the case.
GH- I just realized what the reason for your confusing the two issues may be.
I think that when posters (such as myself) referred to “nursing untzniusly”, you thought that they meant that the very act of nursing in public was untznius. That was not what I meant, nor do I think that was what anyone else meant.
I was referring to nursing in public without attempting to cover oneself, and I believe that was what the other posters meant as well.
what I wrote was:
Nursing in public – COMPLETELY COVERED vs
no nursing in public – even tho you are COMPLETELY COVEREDI never brought up the issue of “nursing in public without trying to cover themselves” because I don’t believe it is applicable to this conversation.
Nursing in public without covering themselves is gaining in popularity in the perverse mores of secular society and the liberal politicians who serve these degenerates.
My presumption is that the majority of readers do not conduct their daily lives exclusively in certain neighborhoods of Willy, BP, Lakewood and Monsey. The point I made very early in this thread is that there is more widespread legal and social acceptance of nursing in public areas with varying degrees of attention to “modesty” (I won’t use the term tzinius to avoid confusion) among young women outside of the frum tzibur. Yidden who travel will have to accommodate these diverse visual encounters since they are only going to increase. To my knowledge, few (if any) of the 48 states that have legalized nursing in public specify limits on the mother’s exposure.
GH- Now you are saying something different than either of the two points that you made previously.
Now you are making a statement about what the law is.
The topic of discussion is not what the law is, but rather about whether or not it is a problem.
And your original post was not an objective statement about the law. Rather, you were stating that you think there is nothing wrong with women nursing in public without trying to do so in a “modest” fashion. You said that there is something wrong with people who think that is a problem.
Do you still agree with that or have you since changed your mind?
SYAG – I’m sorry if you feel I misquoted you, or if in fact I inadvertently implied that you wrote something that you didn’t.
My point was that you were differentiating between the two. Perhaps, you felt that “nursing in public without trying to cover oneself” is not applicable to this conversation, but that was what the discussion had been about, whether or not it should be.
There are posters who seem to be mixing up the two, and I am trying to get them to realize that they are two different things, and they must clarify which one they are discussing.
I quoted you merely because I thought that you did a good job of pointing out the difference between the two topics.
But again, I apologize if I misquoted you.
Just curious – what would you say about a parent changing their baby’s diaper in public?
Would this be considered a greater or lesser offense than nursing in public?Goldilocks,
Apples and oranges. One has nothing to do with the other.
Do you see a difference between indecent exposure of an adult women versus an infant baby?
In one case, you have to hold your nose, and in the other case, you have to cover your eyes. In the first case, you can still get to where you have to go, but in the second case, you might fall or bump into someone or end up in the wrong place. or get run over, c”v.
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