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NY Mom: I shop in both the Jewish and the non-Jewish stores. I find the fit in the Jewish stores not as good; they rarely have small enough sizes or petite sizes. Many times, its in the non-Jewish stores where you can find nicer, better clothes that actually fit. But regardless, its still so hard finding clothes, and I think many women can sympathise with that. If people would only think a little before making comments to someone else for the clothes they wear…
And you’d be surprised. I’m happy for you if you’ve never had the experience of people making comments at what you wear. Maybe you’re just perfect in the area of tznius. Who knows…
Gezunheit, I haven’t discussed this with my Rav because I know I wouldn’t listen to his psak.If he says “too bad you have to cover your hair” (I’ve never heard a heter for hair covering), I wouldn’t be able to do it. And every time he sees me he would know I am NOT following him. I don’t believe in asking about something you know you won’t listen to unless the answer is the way you want it.
Ames, do you think I’m crazy? LOL I think I have some sort of sensory issue. When I was a kid there were times I would feel like I was choking, no matter how loose my neckline was. I still get that feeling sometimes, but luckily it hasn’t been in public so its not a problem to remove anything close to my neck (including my necklace).
NYMom, why is it brave? I’m not afraid of being judged. I never said what I am doing is right, just that I do it. And any man who is reading this thread isn’t supposed to be, so he can’t throw it back at me LOL. Thanks for the offer to call, but if she quit, she probably is not a good source of information.
Anon, those still apply too much pressure.
I feel especially bad because this was something that was really important to my husband before we got married. He knew my mother didnt cover her hair and he explained that to him it was essential. He asked me for one thing and I couldn’t do it.
SJS – I feel your pain. I have also had a problem feeling like I’m choking. It’s horrible.
I know there have been people who have been helped with sensory issues by occupational therapists. I don’t think it works for everyone, though. But if you’re desperate enough . . . .
Maybe an idea for you would be to shop for an outfit in a regular size, and then have it taken in professionally. It would add to the cost of the clothes, but the length would not be a problem and it would be literally “custom fit” for you.
Nice try. Have you ever tried remaking an outfit?
I’m by the tailor anyways more often than not, with clothes that are my size.
mepal, the only other option seems to have some extra kapusta next time 😉
To reiterate, since my first post on this thread apparently has not been read by everyone posting here:
SJSinNYC, I personally know of Rabbaim, Who would give a heter to a woman for specific, personal reasons. Although, they would also tell the women to cover their hair for special occasions, such as, going to Shul, Davening and or saying a brocha, and when listening to someone else make a brocha (i.e. kiddish). Even if a lot of women ask the same question, doesn’t mean they are going to get the same answers. Everyone is unique, ergo, their circumstances may vary as well.
rivkales wrote: “i think its fine to wear nude tights but it should be obvious that your wearing something”. Are you implying that it is OK to completely expose yourself and wear something totally see-through as long as there is “something” there. Either you cover-up or you don’t need to. I do not understand the point of covering with something totally transparent that an onlooker has to look hard to see that you are wearing something there.
This is why I belong to some women only groups, and I try to avoid the party threads on CR. Not to reinvent the wheel but there is something about separate forums in many, if not most, arenas of life.
When I go shopping i try to wear knee-his and i always sit in the skirt in order to make sure that no skin is exposed and if the top part of the knee-hi is exposed (the elastic part) i will not purchase the skirt. also most of my clothing comes from non jewish stores. its alot cheaper and alot less problematic in general- especially if you go to the classier clothing sections. This is not only expensive stores but some examples where i can find a nice top or skirt are JC penny, dressbarn, benaton marshalls, tj max, etc…. in addition i strongly dislike most “jewish” styles in today’s age (and they dont look good on me) and i usually find nothing when shopping at jewish stores. I personally do not like tights so i usually wear knee-his (opaque black or brown- no skin shoes unless its torn) and for when i do wear nude colored tights (weddings, shabbos etc…) i found a company called elle due that makes them 60 denier.
NY mom im totally with you on the shopping situation in jewish stores. i have a few teenage girls and yom tov shopping has become a nightmare. we go from frum store to frum store and walk out with nothing. either its the necklines, the sleeve length, or the skirt length, and if its not that its the style thats altogether not for a bas yisroel. is there any way realisticly that we can get the message to the frum shop-owners that they should start bringing in FRUM clothing to FRUM stores?? if you cant buy tzeneusdik clothing in frum stores then the frum world is really messed up. Get this one::: i went to purchase a fall from a sheitel store. i kept telling her it was too tight on me. she looked at me like i was crazy and pushed it way back on my head with a headband and tons of my hair showing. i told her i dont wear my hair showing and she said she couldnt help me thats how you wear a fall. so even sheitels that were made to cover our hair arent kosher!!! i guess we haveto start buying tzeneuit wigs in goyish stores too!
Mods there is an unbeleivable article in the sept. issue of the Jewish Press that was written by a 19 year old girl who was dying. she sent it to many Rabbis and Rebbetzins to get her message out to as may people as possible. All the women and girls that i know that hav read this article were touched enough to change something that they were doing wrong in their manner of dress, etc… are we allowed to write over that article here?
Go ahead but we will have to read and approve it first. If there is an online version post the link and we will check it out. I would hate to have you manually type it, only to not get it approved
Bezrat Hashem this should be an inspiration to everyone who reads it.
A young girl, struggling with the Angel of Death, wrote the following letter. At her request, the letter was sent to many rabbis and rebbetzinsin a position to disseminate her message among our people. Tragically, she is no longer here to see her letter published, but as we approach Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, her neshamahwill surely have an aliyahin the knowledge that her request has been fulfilled and her message read and taken to heart by many.
My Dear Sisters:
I am writing to you in my last moments with the last threads of strength. I am writing to you with blood and tears from the bottom of my broken and tormented heart. Yes, I, Revital Avraham, 19-years-old, am standing on the threshold of death, so young, but already feeling the gates of life shutting slowly before me. I am like a beautiful flower closing its petals. Like all of you, I had dreams about love, husband, children and social position. But Hashemhas decided otherwise, and I know today that had I lived differently, this wouldn’t have happened.
I was born into a religious family in the center of Israel. From the day I can remember, I knew that I was a beautiful child. Since kindergarten, I attracted everybody’s attention and knew that I had been blessed with rare beauty.
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My friends= encouragement made me understand that beauty can buy anything in this world – friendship, position and honor. I wore clothes, which drew attention; my long hair caused envy and every detail of my appearance was thoroughly taken care of. I enjoyed the long looks of people everywhere I went – to my deep regret. My teachers in high school tried to change me, but it was too late.
I can remember the words of one of my teachers: ARevital, you have received a rare present, special beauty – this is your trial in life. Keep it carefully for the right person to come into your life.@ I pretended to be convinced, but these words were just passing by my ears. I was addicted to my looks and did everything to bring people to admiration. I know today that I have caused multitudes of people to fail because of my clothing.
And then I received a first warning. One evening while preparing an omelet, I made a brisk turn and my beautiful long hair got caught in the fire and in seconds became a red, fearful flame. I was saved, but my hair was gone. I remember my hysterical crying in the hospital and my father trying to console me. ARevital, Hashemhas made a miracle. You could have been entirely burnt! You now have an opportunity to change and leave your foolish attitude behind you.”
But I didn’t listen. I was 16 then, and within two years my hair grew back, and everything was forgotten. I was the queen of my class. My friends loved me, anything I wanted was granted and I was never alone. I grew more and more beautiful with the years. I began to put on make-up and tight clothes, and even got involved in some trouble. It is hard for me to write about it, but I think you can guess.
I forgot to tell you about my grandmother. She was a wonderful person – a real tzadekes and I loved her very much. She was very sad and upset about my spiritual state of mind. She gave me money to buy decent clothes, but nothing helped. She died before I was 17. I cried a lot and didn’t know how to live without her, and for a brief period, I even became a little more religious.
But time eased the pain, and within a few months, I was back to my bad habits, boastful and immodest as ever. And then I received a second sign from above. One night I had a dream about my grandmother. She was sitting on a stone, crying. I asked her why and she pointed to her head without saying a word. I woke up very upset, but I forgot the whole thing quickly, and this second sign melted away without any thought. And then I received the big blow. It came gradually, but consistently. At the beginning, there were headaches, and my mother said I was tired and studying too much, that I should rest more, but deep down, I felt it was something more serious.
After a month, I couldn’t even stand because of the headaches and I thought my head was going to explode. My mother and I were worried and anxious. After many examinations and analyses the doctor revealed the frightful truth. He said, ASuch a beautiful girl and so sick!” I burst into tears and asked for explanations.
My mother and I were disoriented and helpless before this new cruel reality. I had a cancerous tumor in my head. It was only a question of time. I don’t remember how we got home. I just remember tears, fear, confusion, and pain. And suddenly I remembered the dream – my grandmother crying and pointing to her head! If only I had understood the meaning of that dream, my life would have been different. But I didn’t give any importance to the dream and went on with my life. The next day, at the hospital, I began the treatment I never thought would be so painful. I felt death crawling slowly inside me, burning my bones, my blood, and my whole self.
Dear Hashem…You are all Goodness, but I didn’t listen to You. Dear Father, I ignored Your compassion and Your messages.
The rest of my story is sad and painful, and I don’t even have the strength to write. My wonderful hair fell out. Within a few months I was left completely bald, pale and weak. Every doctor I met mentioned my rare beauty, and every time, I felt my heart break a little bit more. Hashem had given me a precious gift, and I had used it the wrong way.
Oh, Hashem! Today I am 19 years old, living a tormented life. My days are numbered, my illness is getting stronger, and I feel death approaching. I pray that my suffering atone for my sins. I turn to you, dear sisters, with a torn soul and a broken heart, and ask you to listen to my last words: Be modest and observe the Commandments of our Torah. There is Law, and there is a Judge. And He sees all and knows all…and every one of our acts will be brought to judgment. I beg you – strengthen your modesty B don’t wait for signs. Do it for yourselves; do it for me!
My pillow is soaked with tears. I am writing with tremendous efforts. Please pray for me and say that you’ll keep the laws of our Torah so that I recover and be healthy again. I beg you…I want to live.
Revital Avraham
Postscript: Revital died a short time after writing this letter. Her last will was a request to publish it. May her memory be blessed and her message embraced by all.
theres a store in boro park that had this problem. the selection of clothing that they had was not fitting for a bas yisroel. a few people complained to the owner and she took it very seriously and started bringing in totally different clothing that are much more appropriate. unfortunately not all store owners are that accomodating. if theres something you think would work count me in
even if the store owners acccomadate that need, it still may not help as people would just get the style a size too small to be tznius to have it tight fitting look so how does that solve the problem
It solves the problem for people who want to dress tzniut!
I googled “snopes revital avraham” and didn’t get any hits, yet I did find a reference to a coffee room mention of this girl, with the allegation that the poster checked Snopes and it’s true. YMMV.
“(If you don’t like the way this sounds, maybe someone creative can come up with a phrase that sounds better!)”
What about something like, “You have some pretty things in your store, but I am really looking for something quite a bit longer than what I have seen so far, and perhaps on the looser fitting side. Do you have anything else I could look at, and if not at this time, when will you be getting it in? I would love to be able to shop here on a regular basis.”
mepal, have you tried Talbot’s petites? I used to buy clothes there. They have a lot of office-type clothing.
tzippi, I agree that the Revital Avraham story has not been verified in any way. Personally I do not find that sort of story inspiring at all.
I heard a beautiful story in a shiur given by Rabbi Avrohom M. Alter that is available online. He said the story in the name of Rebbetzin Kanievsky.
In March, someone packed a car with 100 kilos of explosives and parked it at the CineMall in Haifa. It was parked hear a supporting pillar. Had it exploded, not only would it have destroyed that pillar, but other cars in the lot would have caught fire causing the gas tanks to explode. In that very popular mall, the consequences would have been too horrendously tragic to contemplate.
The explosion did not happen. A passerby spotted some smoke coming from the car and alerted the police whose sappers were able to come and defuse the explosives.
Even Ehud Olmert recognized this was a miracle, although he attributed it to the alertness of civilians.
Here’s what really happened:
Several weeks before this event, a girl in Haifa who had been sick and went for tests was told she had stomach cancer. The tumor was so big, and had metastasized, and there was nothing the doctors could do. They told her to go home for her final weeks.
This non-religious girl and her non-religious parents pleaded with the doctors to try. They begged them at least to make an effort. The doctors finally agreed and told her to come back the next day for surgery.
She was assigned a young, inexperienced surgeon. They felt it would be good practice for him, and since there was nothing that could help her, it didn’t really matter.
The night before the surgery, this non-religious girl pleaded with Hashem. She said to him, “HaKadosh Boruch Hu, when we had the Bais HaMikdosh people could bring you korbanos to plead their case. Now we have no Kohanim, we have no Bais HaMikdosh. But I still want to bring you a korban.”
She went to her closet and took out all her immodest clothing and took it out to the yard and burned them. As the her clothes went up in flames, she cried out, “This is my korban.”
The next day this girl went to the hospital in her nightgown. She had burned her entire wardrobe and this was all she had left. She had the surgery. The giant tumor had not metastisized, as was previously believed. It was totally contained. It was easily removed. And it was benign.
She told all her non-religious friends about the miracle. When the girl had recovered enough to get out of bed, her friends brought over all their immodest clothing and made another fire.
Left with nothing to wear, the girls needed new clothes. When that bomb was supposed to explode at the CineMall, these girls were inside buying themselves new, modest clothing.
A miracle that a civilian saw some smoke? Or a reward for tznius?
wow haifagirl amazing story!
haifagirl, that story is incredibly moving; thanks for sharing it.
BESTIMA, so was the one you shared.
Both really made me turn inward and do some introspection.
BEST IMA, I’ve read the revital story before & found it disturbing; to me the story is saying, “If you are not careful about how you dress, Hashem will give you cancer.” To me, the Cinemall story says that Hashem performs extraordinary miracles for those who put forth special effort to keep the laws of tznius. I see that most posters disagree with me on this though.
Haifa that is really beautiful! Anon I understand what you’re saying. One story stays keep tziniut and hashem will reward you, the other one says if you are too vain hashem will punish you chas ve shalom.
anon for this, I hear how the story could be disturbing to you. I dont think thats what you should take out of this story, though. Its not that if you arent careful how you dress Hashem will punish you. Unfortunately though sometimes Hashem does give us certain tests and if we come out if it having learned something it wouldnt have been for nothing. When Hashem gives someone a nisayon, usually a person will look around and see if there are things in his life he is doing wrong and will try to change. But sometimes after things get better we kind of forget the way things were and dont always keep everything we promised to change. I guess what shes trying to tell us is to not forget. And to not wait until Hashem tests us to look at what we can change.
BEST IMA, I’m not too concerned about trying to see the Revital story in the best possible light because I don’t believe it’s true. And, even if someone did write this letter while dying of cancer, it doesn’t mean that she even knows the reasons for it. But the fact is that (if one believes the letter is genuine) she believes that her hair catching on fire & cancer diagnosis were a punishment for her lack of tznius in dress/ behavior, as I wrote in my previous post.
I’m not a kid, and how I look to most people around me is not an issue I’m struggling with, so I don’t think I’m part of the “target audience” for the Revital story. But I also think that many of those who would benefit from hearing an appropriate story about tznius would not react to this one in a positive way. That’s not to say the story is inappropriate here, but rather that its appeal is not universal.
I hear you, anon, youre entitled to your own opinion. If there are other people that get someting out of this story like I did then thats great.
Best Ima, you can contact the mods by sending in a post or by sending us an email.
My email address is [email protected]. You can substitute 26 for any other mod’s number to reach that specific mod.
Anyway, your request has been taken care of.
I’m just curious what your opinions on baby carriers/slings are. I just started using an Ergo baby carrier for my son and I love it. But it definitely does draw attention. I don’t think its problematic, but I just thought I would throw it out there.
(an Ergo is similiar to a Bjorn or Snugli but much better built so that it doesnt hurt your back at all…plus it can carry kids up to 35 lbs and can be worn in front, side, or back. Its a lifesaver with a toddler and infant – I can carry whichever one needs it and put the other one in a stroller)
haifagirl, I once saw something very similar, I think in an interview/article about Rebitzen Kanievsky. It was basically that a young girl had cancer and she was told there was nothing to do. She went home and decided she wanted to do something, as a form a teshuva, but nothing was good enough. She decided to get rid of all her clothing except for a nightgown which she wore to the hospital. She was given a young medical student because the hospital didn’t want to “waste” a good doctor on someone they were sure wouldn’t make it. She had the surgery and the cancer came out in one piece, as if it had been wrapped in something.
Probably another side, or another version to the same story.
SJS, that’s a new one for me. Why would a baby carrier be considered a breach of tznius? If tznius is about not drawing attention unnecessarily then I’d say that a carrier promotes tznius, since a baby in a carrier is often calmer & quieter than one in a stroller. Plus by using a carrier one can sometimes avoid using a double stroller, which is usually bulkier & more intrusive than a single stroller (or forgo a stroller altogether).
I used carriers for years & never thought there were any tznius issues involved.
(Of course I’m not trying to say that tznius requires that one uses a baby carrier, just that I don’t think they’re relevant to tznius at all).
I know this has nothing to do with tzniut, but since you’re talking about baby carriers, are they really worth it? I’ve never used one and no one in mexico uses them but maybe its a good option?
i dont know where that idea came from the carriage idea as lack of tznius in a way i understand taht baby carriers are not tznius. they pull on the shoulder collar area and often reveal the collar area on the side of the neck. moreover, it pulls on the shirt revealing the parts in the back and front taht shouldnt be. also as a side point if someone mentions is this tznius or not, more often than not it means it is not.
NYMom, being someone whose strong point is not tzniut, I still don’t find the word offensive in any way.
I don’t love the stories posted at all. Especially the first one. I think that scaring anybody into doing anything is just wrong. How do we know that the story is true? Does anybody personally know this person? What bothers me more, is if the girl changed herself to become a “better” person, then why was she not saved? Also, who are we to decide God’s reasons for doing something? How do we know that her hair was burnt as a punishment? Is everything in life punishment and reward? If so, then why doesn’t a person get rewarded just as often as they are punished?
Sorry for rambling…
mybat, I’ve found that baby carriers are especially helpful when I’m out with a baby plus one or more other kids. If I’m shopping in a store that only supplies small grocery carts (the kind that can only hold one child) then I can put my baby in the carrier & the toddler in the cart. If I’m walking somewhere where a stroller is inconvenient, I can use the carrier instead. And if I’m out with a few older kids, using a carrier allows me to keep my hands free.
If you are considering buying a carrier, it might be helpful to try out different ones before buying if possible. Most of my friends don’t use them either, but carriers work great for me.
NY Mom, I don’t have an issue with the word “tznius”.
rivakles, I’ve never had a problem with a baby carrier pulling on my clothes; I wouldn’t use one if it did pull. If you have that problem, maybe another type of carrier would work better for you, or you should stick to a carriage.
Jewess, you articulated my issues with the first story better than I could.
Thanx anon, I’ll check it out.
kapusta: That sounds like exactly the same story. Which details did I leave out that make it “another version”?
About the word tznius – I think when you compliment someone on their outfit and say “because its tznius” in some version, the compliment comes over insincere. My husband’s grandmother said this to me once and it just sort of made me roll my eyes.
About the ergo: its more expensive but WELL worth the money. Its much more comfortable and can be used up to 35 lbs. I can carry my toddler in it as well. It can also be used as a backpack carrier. I hated the Snugli I had and it ended its useful life really early. You can actually nurse pretty discreetly in an ergo when you are on the go (per video instructions on their site), which I haven’t tried. I would only do it with a shawl or something over obviously, but it is intriging since this baby wants to nurse for HOURS (quite literally).
You can also make a moby wrap pretty easily. Just google instructions.
Thank you NY mom and SJS! Ill look at them when I go to the states.
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