- This topic has 63 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Just saw this:
Rosenfeld does not dispute the sincere austerity with which the men and their family lead their lives, but says the luxury of study should not be reserved to men.
yuch. Feminism strikes again.
It’s unnecessary and possibly assur. Either way, no Ben Torah will accept a shidduch with their daughters.
It is a great idea.
Not for married women, but for singles. It potentially is a gamechanger (much more than NASI). If I was a Rov, I would encourage girls back from seminary to join.
SJSinNYC is probably there 😀
The OP is a Purim joke.
Loyal – that would be a tremendous loss to the gene pool, then. My ancestor Alvina bas Miriam bas Rashi (also daughter of the Rivan) taught halacha and minhagim to her cousin the Ri m’Dampierre. Her cousin Chana bas Yocheved was quoted by Rabeinu Tam, her brother. later, R’Yosef Hagodol Treivish’s wife was well known for her insights in gemoro. Another ancestor, Mriam Spira/Luria, is described by both R’Yochanan Luria and R’Yoselin of Rosheim as giving gemoro shiurim from behind the mechitzah. Rebetzin Bayla Falk, daughter of R’Yiroel Idelish, was described as learned and a bas Torah by rabonim of the day. The grandaughter of the Maharal, who was also the grandmother of the Chavas Yoir, Chava Bacharach is described in Chavas Yoir as a boki in halocho, an excellent teacher, and an expert on Rashi and Targum.
These are only a few examples. Just because you and your fellow travelers are threatened by the thought of learned women, it is no reason to denigrate their devotion to Torah. What was clearly and evidently not only allowed but encouraged by many rishonim and achronim should be praised.
And as for shiduchim, I am proud to bear the lineage of many of these women. So are my sons and daughters.
Interesting!
If this is real, then this at the very least is the proper way to do such a thing. No feminist flaunting, no rubbing it in people’s faces. Just women whose husbands work and therefore take the opportunity to learn Torah because they have the time. Who can honestly say there’s something wrong with that?
If this is real, then this at the very least is the proper way to do such a thing. No feminist flaunting, no rubbing it in people’s faces. Just women whose husbands work and therefore take the opportunity to learn Torah because they have the time. Who can honestly say there’s something wrong with that?
I guess if that is what it is, then it is no more of a waste of time than watching movies all day. But can’t they find something productive to do?
If this joke had been real, women would be prohibited from learning Torah she baal peh.
Since the mods are hemming and hawing about posting what I wrote earlier, I will modify it slightly to take out what might be questionable.
Loyal – that would be a tremendous loss to the gene pool, then. My ancestor Alvina bas Miriam bas Rashi (also daughter of the Rivan) taught halacha and minhagim to her cousin the Ri m’Dampierre. Her cousin Chana bas Yocheved was quoted by Rabeinu Tam, her brother. later, R’Yosef Hagodol Treivish’s wife was well known for her insights in gemoro. Another ancestor, Mriam Spira/Luria, is described by both R’Yochanan Luria and R’Yoselin of Rosheim as giving gemoro shiurim from behind the mechitzah. Rebetzin Bayla Falk, daughter of R’Yiroel Idelish, was described as learned and a bas Torah by rabonim of the day. The grandaughter of the Maharal, who was also the grandmother of the Chavas Yoir, Chava Bacharach is described in Chavas Yoir as a boki in halocho, an excellent teacher, and an expert on Rashi and Targum.
These are only a few examples. There is no reason to denigrate their devotion to Torah. What was clearly and evidently not only allowed but encouraged by many rishonim and achronim should be praised.
And as for shiduchim, I am proud to bear the lineage of many of these women. So are my sons and daughters.
You gotta wonder, how much are their shverrs shtelling?
Which seminary is this?
thanks for the Laugh!!!
A Freilichen purim everyone!!! 🙂
But can’t they find something productive to do?
Why isn’t this productive? Mistama they are learning Chullin, Shabbos, Niddah; stuff they need to know anyway.
I agree with Sam2.
Who says learning Torah has to stop for a female once they are out of school?
If someone has the desire to learn, and it works out in the family structure, then we are all benefitting and should appreciate their time learning.
I guess if that is what it is, then it is no more of a waste of time than watching movies all day. But can’t they find something productive to do?
If you had no chiyuv limud hatorah would you never learn. Didnt they teach in the yeshiva you went to that torah helps a person get close to hashem and understand his ways? and that learning makes you a better person(in a different way than putting on tefilin or shiluach haken does)?
Why cant that be an asperation a woman as well(my question is only in a case where the woman is interested in these things. you were were that there could be a case when a woman was learning not for feminism, but indicated that it would be a total waste of time )
S”A writes if a woman learns Torah, it will lead her to tiflus (immorality).
In the Midbar there were no clothes to mend (or make) and meals were pretty easy with the mun … of course children needed tending, but wasn’t the rest of women’s time spent learning?
A freilichen Pirim. I’m surprised that everyone doesn’t realize that there is no such institution, except for perhaps on Pirim!
A freilichen Pirim. I’m surprised that everyone doesn’t realize that there is no such institution, except for perhaps on Pirim!
Not sure what world you live in, but there are several such institutions.
“S”A writes if a woman learns Torah, it will lead her to tiflus (immorality). “
That’s referring to Gemara, not Halacha.
BTW, does this place even exist ???! I can’t find it, nor any names mentioned on google.
Sushe: That’s not what the SH”A says. You’re twisting his words.
S”A YD 246:6 says its tiflus. Rashi defines tiflus as lechery. Also see Sota 21b.
Sushe- S”A actually says that women receive schar for learning Torah but a father who teaches it to his daughter it’s as if he taught her tifuls. As I have mentioned before, if the S”A was against women learning Torah, then they wouldn’t receive a reward for learning it. S”A probably means it’s tifuls if you force it on a woman who is not receptive to it. But if she’s doing it willingly, then it’s not tiflus, but deserving of reward.
By willingly, I mean lishmah.
The S”A writes tiflus only applies to teaching her Torah she’bal peh. Nevertheless, writes S”A (in the citation above), one shouldn’t teach her Torah she’bksav either. The Rema adds that the portions of the Torah she’bksav that are relevant to women, they should be taught the simple meaning of, so that they know what to do when situations arise in life that affect them.
Sushe: Now you’re twisting the Rama too. Teaching them applicable Halachos does not only mean Torah Shebiksav. It means Halachah Lema’aseh, which always includes Torah Sheba’al Peh.
“The Rema adds that the portions of the Torah she’bksav that are relevant to women, they should be taught the simple meaning of, so that they know what to do when situations arise in life that affect them.”
The Rama can’t possibly mean what you seem to think he means. Anyone who has ever learned a little chumash and a little halacha knows that the “simple meaning” (I assume you mean p’shat) of any part of Torah Shebichsav is highly unlikely to give anyone solid direction in order for them to actually “know what to do when situations arise in life that affect them.”
Knowing what to do in situations would require them to learn halacha – and I don’t mean kitzur shulchan aruch. Shas and poskim are what you need to understand when something is an issue and how to resolve it. And these days, for women to learn those areas of halacha that apply to them would likely include everything a man learns (after all, women are involved in the kitchen, work outside the home, give tzedakka to the collector at the door, do homework with there children, go to school, engage in business, ect), and more (since women should probably more well versed in hilchos niddah than men need to be).
And these days, for women to learn those areas of halacha that apply to them would likely include everything a man learns
Everything a man learns? Maybe everything an man learns in your community.
To live according to Halacha, you do not need to be able to pasken the questions that arise. You need to understand the general idea, and have the ability to discern when to ask further.
In Hilchos Niddah, which has been raised as an example, you can buy any of a number of excellent seforim in english, spend several hours studying it, and voila! You know how to live your life, and when to ask a question.
Further study would be “necessary” only as the mitzvah of talmud Torah.
They have to learn, to be able to mix into the conversations here…
My husband said it’s soooo important for me to know all the halachos that apply to me- which means I need to learn Shas and Poskim to know when something is an issue and how to resolve it.
So I came home from my first day at kolel the same time that my husband got home from work. And we were both staaarving.
So I fed him Shas and Poskim.
Me? I wouldn’t touch that stuff.
tomim tihye:
Why didn’t you feed him Pas and Shoskim?
Good attitude, tomim. The alternative wouldv’e involved tiflus.
If you had no chiyuv limud hatorah would you never learn. Didnt they teach in the yeshiva you went to that torah helps a person get close to hashem and understand his ways? and that learning makes you a better person(in a different way than putting on tefilin or shiluach haken does)?
Why cant that be an asperation a woman as well(my question is only in a case where the woman is interested in these things. you were were that there could be a case when a woman was learning not for feminism, but indicated that it would be a total waste of time )
As I recall, my rosh yeshiva ztz”l was asked a version of this question. Chazal say that we use torah to fight the yetzer hara. So how do women fight the yetzer hara without torah?
He said–which is actually obvious–that women have a different yetzer hara, which is not properly fought with torah. This is obvious, since Hashem made the world, and created people, and created a yetzer hara, and told the men to learn torah whenever they have any spare time, and told the women not to. We can easily expect that women are created in a way that the way they reach shleimus is not through torah.
This addresses your question as well. If a woman learns torah, she will not become closer to Hashem through it. If she says she is, you know that it is not Hashem she is becoming closer to.
ZeesKite: Use my time for shopping? I was shteigin’ away.
We can easily expect that women are created in a way that the way they reach shleimus is not through torah.
This addresses your question as well. If a woman learns torah, she will not become closer to Hashem through it. If she says she is, you know that it is not Hashem she is becoming closer to.Women can reach shleimus without lulav or shofar as well. But, don’t we have a concept of non-mechuyavim getting schar as well(gadol hametzuveh veoseh…so you see there is schar just a metzuveh is greater). I doubt you tell your mother these type of things about shofar lulav or davening. My understanding is that we consider it a good/nice thing to do.
As for learning, is it worse than sitting in a sukah(other than the feminist implications)?
You may answer tiflus, but that seems to be an issue with teaching and not with learning(though I imagine some may argue that point).
So, just like there is schar for shofar or sukah, why wouldn there be schar for torah study.
Also, as mentioned, why cant they have that exposure to hashem?
Tiflus is more relevant to the woman than her teacher, since the implication is she will engage in lechery as a result of the tiflus.
The feminine version of Kolel is Klalah.
I still don’t understand why people are arguing this. The S”A is clear- women receive schar for learning. How could this be a bad thing? Why would one receive schar for doing the wrong thing? Why do we assume that any woman who wants to learn Torah is doing it for feminist reasons? What happened to dan lekaf zechus? If a woman has spare time, learning Torah is the best way to spend that time (as long as it’s not coming at the expense of Torah she is chayav in, and as long as it’s not for lo lishmah/feminist reasons).
The SA says “Tzivo Chazal shelo yilamad adam es bito Torah, mipnei SHEROV hoanoshim ein daatan michuvonos lhislamed umotzius Divrei Torah ldivrei havai…”
Interestingly, one of the smartest people I ever knew was a woman who, before she passed away, finished Shas (Bavli) for the third time.
The Wolf
Hershi: What he meant was that the Tiflus issue is only if you (forcibly) teach a woman Torah, not if she wants to learn on her own. And you are grossly ignoring the word “K’ilu” to the point that you’re distorting the Shulchan Aruch’s words.
No, Sam. S”A makes no reference or distinction whether she is forced or not. That is your own distortion.
This addresses your question as well. If a woman learns torah, she will not become closer to Hashem through it. If she says she is, you know that it is not Hashem she is becoming closer to.
You have just refuted the entire concept of Da’as Torah. Mazel Tov.
hershi- so according to the S”A (and I don’t think anyone argues on the S”A) the women receive schar for engaging in something that leads to tiflus?
So, Hershi, are you saying to the descendants of the Maharal, Chavas Yoir, Rashi, the Falks, the Spira’s, Lurias, Treivishes oh, and by the way, the Rema who was also a descendant of these women, and assorted Horowitzes, Halberstams, and dozens of other families have a mesorah of learned women respected by their male relatives who were Rishonim and Acharonim are wrong to be inspired by them and should rather be ashamed that they were involved in tiflus?
Please, be clear. It is obvious you have an insight that Rabbeinu Tam and R’YOsf hagodol Treivish overlooked. Please, share with us.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.