Minhag of Women Shaving Head

We might be taking Kimchis’ statement to literally. She may have only meant that walls never saw her hair outside of the times when it would be halachically necessary (i.e. preparing for mikvah).

It is less tzniusdik to have uncovered hair in a public place like a bathhouse than one’s home. Pashtus she referenced her home where m’ikkar hadin it is mutar to walk around with uncovered hair, to show that even where it was mutar she was machmir. She wasn’t saying, however, that she covered her hair when doing so would compromise on some other area of halacha.

See the Darchei Tshuva Hilchos Nidda 198:91 on this topic.Also the Chofetz Chaim(geder olam) discusses the severity of showing hair ,however I don’t remember seeing him quote this minhag.

I can try to find one, but it should be a simple kal v’chomer, since other parts, even for married women, are still more chamur than hair – it is muttar meikar hadin to have hair uncovered in the home, but not other, normally covered, parts.

I don’t know how women conduct themselves at the pool, but even if you’re correct, and even if it’s not a mistake, it could simply be because there’s no need for the hair to be uncovered; in fact bathing caps are usually required.

Daas,

The reason it is not a simple kal v’chomer is that there are two dinim. The chiyuv to cover hair is a separate din with a different limud than the chiyuv to cover other parts of the body (although the reason governing other parts of the body applies to hair as well).

A woman has to cover her hair in public even if that public consists entirely of other women, and even if she lives in a society where it is the norm to walk around with uncovered hair.

My knowledge of how frum women conduct themselves at pools comes entirely from reports from my wife.

For the benefit of the doubt, I reviewed the book “Pinkas Va’ad Arba Ha’aratzot” for the years 1660-1680. According to a post above, Rabbi Meisel’s book (which I never saw) mentioned that takanah regarding shaving heads was decreed in 1670. This takanah is nowhere to be found in those years. Just for the record, the takanot in those years were about much more serious issues, whether they were kidnappings and murders, Shabtai Zvi, or blood libels .

I maintain that this alleged takanah “lo hayah v’lo nivra”. Lahada”m. It has not been mentioned in any Eastern European posek in the hundreds of years of the ‘Arba Ha’aratzot’. Remember that these takanot were decreed by the Gedolei Olam who “m’pihem anu chayim”, the Taz, Be’er Hagolah, Chelkas M’chokek, to mention just a few. And not a word about shaved heads in the seforim.

Attributing this purely chassidish custom to gedolei Ashkenaz is tantamount to demanding why the vast majority of Ashkenazim do not adhere to it. Ths is manipulative minhagic coercion, aside from it being false.

Furthermore, it raises serious doubts regarding the reliablity in general of such proclamations lacking in proper footnotes and references, regardless of the popularity of the specific book. If a bombastic claim such as the above is made, it better be verifiable. Maybe the average BY girl or Mesivta boy will buy into it, but it doesn’t work on me. Show me the proof.

If someone brings me a verifiable source, I will retract everything I have written here.

old man: The Chasam Sofer wasn’t Chasidic.

It was claimed here that the Takanah was made in 1670 by the Council of the 4 lands. The Chasam Sofer wasnt born yet. He was born 2 years before the end of the Council of the 4 lands.

They depend on the norms l’chumra, not l’kula, except, according to some, with hair.

Daas Yochid,

First of all, why do you think it is only l’chumra and not l’kula too?

Second, you are missing the point. Women don’t have to cover their hair because of erva, they have to cover their hair because of a gzeiras hakasuv which applies even if there is no chashash erva. That gzeiras hakasuv applies in all public places and regardless of societal norms.

Benignuman,

I’m probably misunderstanding you again, so I’ll tell you what it seems to me that you’re saying, and you’ll please correct me.

You seem to be saying that the halachos of tznius follow the standard of the day, and therefore, it is muttar for women to dress the way we find most people in society dressing. According to this, it’s okay to wear shorts, and worse, which I will not detail.

I doubt you mean this, so please explain.

Daas Yochid,

The “standard of the day” I am referring to is not based on the non-Jews or the non-frum Jews.

Daas Yehudis means the the norms of frum women in a frum community. Furthermore, there are also some levels of tznius that are governed by takanos d’Rabbanan; but the covering of arms is Daas Yehudis. So if one would live in a frum community where the frum women will bare their arms it would be mutar.

A minimal hair-covering according to most poskim is d’oraisa and it certainly wouldn’t change based on the communities norms (but the more extensive hair coverings we have in our communities are Daas Yehudis).

Standards of a neighborhood presuppose at least a MINIMUM of reasonable modest behavior. So if women wear bikinis in the street, that would NEVER be considered an acceptable standard for any frum woman, even if all the other women dressed that way.

It’s written that a woman may not do any “davar meguneh”, an act which could repulse her husband. The woman’s beauty is given for a man to enjoy. A shaved head falls in the category of “davar meguneh”.

Benignuman,

His statement that it’s not ervah when people don’t cover it is said concerninmg krias Sh’ma, not issur.

Is there ever an example of a Minhag being abandoned?

No, it’s not regardless of ervah status; it’s ervah status is lower than others, and therefore is not always considered ervah for all purposes. The chiyuv to cover hair is most definitely based on ervah.

zahavasdad — I can think of a few Minhaghim that were practiced in earlier generations but not now. However, I am not certain if “abandoned” is the correct term.

Ma’amadot — selections from Mikra and Chazal read early every morning (including Shabbos). Very few people I know of, read this now. They are printed in some earlier Siddurim.

Washing clothes — Virtually everyone I spoke to never heard of the prohibition of washing clothes on Friday, even though this a Takanas Ezra (HaSofer). Some poskim maintain that the Takana is still in force today, despite automatic washing machines and non-Jewish nannies doing it, though there appear to be heterim; children’s clothes, etc…

Tallis & Tefillin — We don’t put these on during Mincha, even though the Ariza”l was careful to do this. I’ve seen Tshuvos HaGeonim about when to take them off at Maariv (when Maariv is said before Shkia, summer time).

i was talking to a satmar chasidish girl and that’s what she told me

DY: I don’t think you’re right about one thing. Source that women can’t be not-Tznius if solely in the company of other women please? I don’t recall any Issur and I think the Shulchan Aruch says it’s even okay for women to Daven K’negged not-Tznius women.

Knees, above elbows and neckline are a must.

Sam2: I believe Rav Belskey holds women should cover their hair by a swimming pool.

Benignuman: How about the Aruch Hashulchan OC 75:7?

DY: Interesting. I go with the assumption that they are a Midas Chassidus (my Rebbe once quoted Rav Moshe and I think also Rav Ruderman as saying so, but I haven’t seen that inside). I also remember thinking there were a lot of Middas Chassidus Leshonos in there (Lo and Tzarich, as opposed to Chayav or Assur), but I haven’t looked at the precise language there in a while. But even with your assumption, would that apply in someone’s own/a friend’s home when the only people around are women?

DY: Yes, but maybe it wouldn’t apply in places in one’s house like a bedroom or even at a swimming pool. (See M”B 2:1)

A swimming pool should be fine; it’s a beis hamerchatz.

In response:

1. The concept of shaved heads for women does not appear in the book on Va’ad Ha’aratzot. There is only one authoratative copy, and it is not in there. If anyone, posek or not, thinks it stems from there, show it to me.

2. The concept of shaved heads does not appear in the Tzava’a of the Chasam Sofer. First of all, it is an instruction booklet to his own family and was obviously not written for public consumption. Second, quite the contrary. He assurs leaving hair uncovered (if shaved, what hair?)and also assurs pe’ah nochris (yes, sheitels). Third, in his teshuva YD 195, which no one mentioned here,he does not imply that all hair is removed , rather that long hair is cut. Reb Moshe’s tshuva relates to the Chasam Sofer’s reasoning, and effectively eliminates the totally shaved hair idea from chatzitzah, otherwise all body hair would need to be removed totally.

3. The Meshaneh Halachos labors unsuccessfully to find a source, but does not find an explicit one. He cannot find it in the Sefer Arba Ha’aratzot (no surprise, it isn’t there) and so he refers us to the Zohar with no proof whatsoever that any established group followed this unproven interpretation of the Zohar. The proof from the Tashbetz is clearly wishful thinking, the Tashbetz refers to cut pe’ot and not to shaved heads.

4. I grant that it is possible that this minhag is not purely chassidic, considering that the Me’ah She’arim Toldos Aharon practice this and they are not mainstream chassidim. Same for Rav Menashe Klein’s constituency. Apologies for the use of the term “purely” chassidic. But to claim that it was accepted for many hundreds of years from the times of the Rishonim? No way.

5. I maintain that attributing this minhag to mainstream Ashkenazic Jewry via the Va’ad Arba Aratzot is manipulative because it automatically puts the burden of proof on those who don’t practice it. See above post where a misguided bas yisroel is being convinced that it’s a “way higher level”. That thinking is motzi la’az on n’shos yisroel l’doros. Shumu shamayim.

6. To hypothesize a source, or to suggest a possible interpretation for a source is legitimate and is done all the time for minhagim. But to claim a written source where none exists, as claimed in posts “quoting” the Va’ad Arba Ha’aratzot or the Tzava’ah of the Chasam Sofer, that is indeed absolutely false.

7. I in no way denigrate or criticize the minhag of women shaving their heads. To each group his own minhagim. However, I do not accept false claims.