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It is your choice not to go to NYC beaches . The city doesnt need to bend over backwards for you. They many times try to bend over backwards, but they are not required
There are lots of services in the city that some people dont take advantage of, it doenst mean you are exempt from paying for it
ZD: I know. I’m just trying to put this pool issue in perspective. NYC separate beach hours is obviously not on the horizon, although someone mentioned that Boston has something along those lines. My question is basically why we can’t get even this little (pool hours) accommodation. And for the time being we can. If the city nixes it it’ll be symptomatic of a bigger issue, namely that we’re the ones being wronged when it comes to city services, not the other way around. And that we’re sort of personae non gratae.
You might not get the Pool services, but there are other services that you get that others do not.
It really does balance out more than you think.
There is alot of construction in Williamsburg, there is no reason someone cant build a Y and your problem is solved
If the city nixes it it’ll be symptomatic of a bigger issue, namely that we’re the ones being wronged when it comes to city services, not the other way around
Very funny, especially after all the work done for priority 5 & 7 vouchers :p, which is yet another excuse for the Aino Yehudim to say we Yidden get away with things by cozying up to politicians.
GAW: Yes, we have some hard earned institutional political clout, but on an individual basis the average Joe begrudges us the bare minimum IF THEY SEE US GETTING IT. So when I see pools, gyms, beaches, lots of sports facilities and Easter egg hunts sponsored by the city with nary a Chasid in sight, that’s okay. But G-D forbid we get some separate swimming hours at no extra cost to the city.
Do you realize that the number of kids attending Jewish schools in Brooklyn is close to a third of the total public school enrollment? For better or worse, these kids are not getting their fair share and are not welcomed.
Now if you believe Jews shouldn’t be seen or demand anything because of jealousy I can hear your point, but it’s definitely not a chillul Hashem if others feel differently AND IT DOESN’T CHANGE THE FACT THAT FOR THE MOST PART WE’RE BEING UNDERSERVED, vouchers and all.
AND WE ARE NOT BREAKING THE LAW BY HAVING SEPARATE SWIM HOURS. The city is currently reviewing their policy. Even if they decide against it, it’s not a clear-cut violation at all, but will basically depend on which constituency they feel more beholden to…
It’s ironic how the same posters who oppose cutting extra-curricular activities for Rockland public school students oppose similar activities for their (NYC Recreation Centers) membership paying Brooklyn brethren.
“There is alot of construction in Williamsburg, there is no reason someone cant build a Y and your problem is solved”
I was wondering that myself. If the two JCCs in the Bronx, neither of which serve charedim, can have separate swimming hours….
Mammele – If it turns out the law was not broken (and I happen to agree with you that it was not), then you are correct that there is no reason why the policy should not continue.
From Title 8:
(b) Notwithstanding the foregoing, the provisions of this subdivision shall not apply, with respect to age or gender, to places or providers of public accommodation where the commission grants an exemption based on bona fide considerations of public policy
What I’m concerned with is that the law is ignored because of the “institutional political clout”. And you hit it on the head with to whom the politicians feel more beholden. My hope is that either way, this goes before a judge so that the law decides, not some politician looking for a bloc vote.
Finally, the very real argument is that we as Yeraim do have the ability to join all of these activities, including public schools. The fact that we don’t is our own choice, so we can’t say that those services are not “ours” just because we happen not to use them. That being said, there is something wrong when certain programs are geared (or end up being used) by a small section of the population, especially if there is a religious component which would otherwise not be allowed (see Christie’s “Grant” to BMG which was rightfully blocked by a judge).
Even better, why not privatize all of the pools and beaches? Why is this a municipal function? However, that will not end anti-“discrimination” suits, as Xtian bakers have discovered.
The Y around here has seperate swimming hours
And thats where people go.
There is plenty of anti-semitism out there, People who are not hired fob jobs because they are jewish, people who are attacked or killed because they are jewish etc
Howwever to claim anti-semtism every time you dont get what you want, its crying wolf people will not belive you when there really is geniune anti-semitism.
Crying anti-semitism because a pool wont have seperate swimming hours and not the same as someone who is harrassed at a job for “not believing” and wont be “saved”
Apparently, according to Charlie, only chareidim need seperate swimming.
This explains why most people consider the OO movement less than Orthodox.
nisht: You misread Charlie’s post.
Sam,
No I didn’t.
ZD: Asking that the city continue a reasonable accommodation in place for decades is NOT the same as claiming anti-Semitism.
Below is what the Jewish Week had to say about the “Let them build their own pool” issue. So this may have larger ramifications than simple pool hours.
[or if it]
The Hamodoa also had an article on this topic worth reading. Below is a partial quote from Prof. Helfand, and he seems to agree with me:
Read the whole article for more info.
We use the Y Pools here, we do not use the municipal pool
Mammele – I read the Hamodia article (page 42 of Hamodia’s digital edition from Wednesday), and Prof. Helfand (who I don’t know) agrees it needs to be scrutinized and then decided based on the law. He’s quite evenhanded by discussing the merits of both sides.
I’m more concerned with Zwiebel’s comments, where he expects special treatment due to his religious beliefs. That is exactly what the Aino Yehudim see happening, and therefore see the Jews as a bunch of lawbreakers who use their block vote (and monetary) power to corrupt politicians and hurt others.
If Satmar would create their own pool, and open exclusively to membership (to Satmar members in good standing), that would be private but still allow gender segregation (even with a strict reading that no one would begin to interpret the law as meaning; that reading would also disallow gender based bathrooms and locker rooms, so it is quite a red herring).
GAW: I feel like a broken tape recorder. Williamsburg is not just Satmar, and since there are two distinct Satmar organizations, doing something jointly for both Satmars’ memberships already takes it out of the private realm. And they have no interest in doing so. Even if they somehow do build one, as mentioned in the Jewish Week article, they could still run into discrimination lawsuits. And the first ones to complain would be members of Pupa, Visnitz, Vien etc.
The Y near me was not built by frum people, but they have seperate swimming hours for the frum people.
If people want to get along they can do it
Mammele – You’re the one who brought the idea again. I’m just trying to explain why their interpretation is flawed at best.
As you said (or quoted):
Like I said earlier, I hope a judge decides in favor. I would if I were the judge.
“No I didn’t.”
Yes, you did. The people who use the single sex swimming hours at the two Bronx JCCs are MO/OO. Other than the Telshe Yeshiva, one chasidic rabbi, and a very few Lubavichers, there aren’t any charedim in the Bronx.
[or if it]
The Y doesnt seem to have these problem. They dont really advertise that they have it , but everyone knows its there. It not “public” meaning you just cant walk in and use it as far as I know. You have to be a member of the Y to use it.
ZD: of course people jump quicker when it’s against the city versus a different organization, if they perceive discrimination. But “past performance does not guarantee future results”.
The Williamsburg arrangement is from the nineties and no one complained until now. And your Y is not situated in hipster Williamsburg. So basically it depends who gets wind of it and decides to make a fuss. And IF SOMEONE DOES, according to the quoted article the courts are not stacked in favor of religious acommodation.
The Y in Borough park and in Kings bay have female only swimming hours
So does the municipal pool in Williamsburg.
Nobody is complaining about the Seperate hours at the Y’s in Borough park and Kings Bay. its perfectly legal there
Nobody is complaining about the Seperate hours at the Y’s in Borough park and Kings Bay.
Yet.
Yet.
Give the liberal Nazis a little more time. They aren’t yet aware of the Y’s policy.
So it seems NYC will be doing the right thing. Let’s hope the loony liberals don’t sue the city for opting to accommodate our needs. And I don’t think our previous “Jewish” mayor would have acted in the same manner (although it’s officially the Human Rights Commission that made the decision the Mayor at least sets the tone).
How is this different then Affirmative Action where a minority is given preferential treatment over a more qualified white person to right past discrimination? These Satmar women can claim that their civil rights have been violated and if they can convince a judge to issue a stay, separate swimming will continue until the case is fully litigated which can take years.
The lowered the number of womens only hours from 6 hours to 4 hours
ZD: maybe you’re right, but the park’s dept. schedule online doesn’t reflect that as of now.
The change in hours only takes effect in the Fall (September). Should give the honchos time to get additional hours added for next summer.
Are there mens only hours?
When R’ Boruch Ber came to New York in 1929 he was greeted by Mayor Walker . The mayor asked him “what can I do for you Rabbi?”
(He did not ask him for special favors for the Jewish community or for religious Jews.) His prompt response [in Yiddish] was separate the males and females at the beaches.
Lesschumras,
It is upending the status quo
I saw the hours cutback on The New York Times.
There was I think seperate mens hours, but those were cut
There were never any separate men’s hours at the Metropolitan pool in Williamsburg. If anything, the city should add men’s hours to boost their case.
So it seems NYC will be doing the right thing.
Agreed. Boruch Hashem.
I think the one in Crown Heights had men only hours (There was a pool in Crown heights too)
I still stand by my statement that the community should spend a few million, shouldnt cost more than that and make their own pool like they did in Borough Park. There is no reason not to, there are plenty of Giverim who could afford it
“another excuse for the Aino Yehudim to say we Yidden get away with things by cozying up to politicians”
But we DO get away with things by cozying up to politicians and we are proud of it!
“His prompt response [in Yiddish] was separate the males and females at the beaches.”
I wonder what Walker’s quid pro quo was. He was one of the most corrupt mayors in American history and was removed from office in mid 1932 by Franklin Roosevelt as a result.
“Give the liberal Nazis a little more time. They aren’t yet aware of the Y’s policy.”
Neither liberals nor Nazis have been complaining about the separate sex swimming hours at the two Bronx JCCs.
“not privatize all of the pools and beaches? “
You can privatize all the pools, although it isn’t clear how private agencies could afford to run them. The beaches, however, are federal property up to the mean high tide level and many of the beaches in the NY area are federal National Recreation Area or National Seashore property.
It might be possible to have separate sex areas, though. There are some areas that are set aside for public nudity in the federal beaches, with warning signs for those who might object.
ZD: I read the NYT article and you’re right about the women’s hours being cut and men’s in Crown Heights eliminated. I had known there was a pool in Crown Heights that had men’s hours but I wasn’t aware it was a Park’s Dept. pool. Apparently, it took the city a while to figure it out as well…
And cutting the men’s hours in Crown Heights is a shame, since there are no men’s pool hours now in a huge chunk of Brooklyn. All you guys should be up in arms, especially in Crown Heights. It seems men are the new minority. Welcome to NYC…
The city is also opening the door for MORE women’s hours at other pools if they get 200 petitions and there’s no pool with separate women’s hours close by. Again, nothing about men.
And ZD, just send those gevirim a memo that they should put down a couple of million for a pool, I’m sure it’s no biggie…
Seriously speaking, membership for the private pool & gym in BP is not cheap, annual membership is four times that of membership for ALL NYC centers including pools. NYC centers are free for children, and only 25 bucks a year for seniors.
So you can ask those gevirim while you’re at it to subsidize it’s maintenance as well, as apparently we can’t get any such benefits from our tax money.
I stand corrected. There is apparently a Yeshiva in Crown Heights with a pool that offers men only swimming.
Here are the dues to the Borough Park Y, they seem very reasonable to me. About the same as shul dues. I got it right off the Borough park Y site. It includes access to the gym as well
Annual Membership Dues
FAMILY
a) Parents and all children age 18 and younger
b) Students, ages 18-20, and still living at home
$550
SINGLE PARENT FAMILY *
Single parent who is divorced, legally separated, widow or widower; and all
Children ages 20 and younger
$300
ADULT COUPLE
$515
KOLLEL COUPLE *
ages 20 -25 and one spouse is a full time student
$360
INDIVIDUAL ADULT
over age 18
$440
ADULT STUDENT
age 17 through 25 and a full-time student*
$275
CHILDREN
age 4 through 13 (grade P1A – 8)
$185
HIGH SCHOOL YOUTH
grades 9 through 12
$225
SENIOR ADULT*
Individual over age 65
$250
SENIOR ADULT COUPLE*
Couple both over age 65
$365
* verification required at time of registration
NEW MEMBERSHIP REGISTRATION FEE
A registration fee of $50 will apply to all new members at the time of enrollment.
I was recently in Williamsburg, I saw alot of construction there, There isnt a shortage of money to build stuff and if a Y is desired to be build, it could surely be built. There are enough people who can afford to pay for this and its no big deal for them.
ZD: I don’t know what happened to my previous post, so I’ll be brief.
I compared the rates to a different BP pool, which was built more recently and their rates are higher and probably more in line with current market costs and profits. The BP Y was built in 1971, and I don’t think it was built for profit.
Williamsburg has more expensive real estate, and you can’t dictate to so called gvirim where to invest – or give tzeddakah to – otherwise more much needed frum housing would be built.
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