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Back in the 1990’s, time was quietly set designated women only so as to allow Hasidic women to exercise.
It came to light in today’s paper because a man filed a gender discrimination complaint. Mayor DeBlasio is caught between two blocks he needs for reelection. Even if he keeps men out, he’s already ruled that men who ” identify” as women can use city female bathrooms; how does he stop them from using the pool?.
Make a private pool
Knowing NYC, a few transgender individuals will make it their business to be there during the Noshim only hours, and the Chassidim will no longer push to have Noshim only times in a public pool.
:p
Since it involved Jews – especially “Hasidim” – it hit several new sites…Obviously, the driving force behind the lawsuit is most likely anti-semitism. However, I was surprised to see that many anti-semitic views were overshadowed by normal people. They understood that this is not a religious issue, since it is not exclusive to Jews – all women can swim. Additionally, they said there are many, many federal and state pools with similar women-only hours.
Women in general may find it more comfortable to avoid men and children. This is no different than kids only hours, or laps only hours, which is extremely common. Each pool and municipality caters to the people they serve.
They wouldn’t make a stink over it if it was for Muslim women.
lesschumras: You bring up an excellent point. The state of New York defines a MTF trans man as a woman. It would be illegal discrimination (and a hate crime) to keep such a person out. So the Chassidish swimming hours will probably be gone soon anyway.
Muslim women need to be accommodated with cultural sensitivity.
The government now involves itself in far more than basic governmental functions, and serves more as a general wealth redistributor and manager for the entire population.
If religious minorities are going to be required to pay in to the system, it is not fair that they don’t also get to take from the system. Separation of church and state may have made sense when the government was only funding necessary functions, but at this point it’s simply unfair and a breakdown of the social contract.
Amazingly, just 4 months ago, the NY Times published an article titled:
“In Toronto, a Neighborhood in Despair Transforms Into a Model of Inclusion”
“The center has given Ms. Hassan, a 34-year-old nurse, the ability to do something more than just watch her child: she, too, can join in.
DaasYochid,
I’ve got so many good responses to that…
Popa- I don’t think the problem with this is government overreach (although I do think that is a problem too). I think the issue here is a basic misinterpretation of what separation of church and state means. It means that the state cannot preach religion. It does not mean that the state should not accommodate religious needs/principles in the services it provides to its citizens. What these so called anti-discrimination people are truly doing is discriminating against people based on religion.
I can’t see why this should be an issue.
In Williamsburg, when someone wanted to build a private community pool many years ago, the Rabbonim “vetoed” it. The pool in question now is closer to Greenpoint than “Chasidic Willimsburg”, and is not as widely used by frum women because of it.
Since even Jewish stores are sued for their dress code in NYC, if the rules of gender separation are ruled discriminatory, even a private pool could run into legal issues here.
If anything, as PBA mentioned, we need to get the city to accommodate us more — as contrary to many nay-sayers we are paying our fair share in taxes. So how about the Parks, Botanical gardens and zoos have longer hours on Chol Hamoad? By the time most families get there after a long davening, family breakfast, get “the gantze mishpacha” all ready, battle with city traffic or erratic trains, the zoos are almost closing. Am I the only one with this issue?
Even worse is when they have limited hours/days because “the season” only starts after / during the second days of Pesach or ended slightly before Succos. Don’t they compare their year to year admissions and realize they will miss out on the Chol Hamoad “stampede”?
End rant…
charliehall,
I can’t see why this should be an issue.
Why what should be an issue?
LC: The point is if it were for Muslim women there wouldn’t be this outcry against it.
And kollelman proved the point. The NYT wrote an editorial against the women’s hours in Williamsburg and their news article was also slanted against it. Yet four months ago they were fawning over how beautiful Toronto is to Muslim women by offering them women hours at the public pool.
To kollelman and Joe
Welcome to AMERICA (it’s weird that I’m defending the Ny slimes but here is what I got from google when I typed in separation of church and state
Some time ago, Prime Minister Stephen Harper observed that separation of church and state is an American constitutional concept and does not apply to the Canadian constitution. He went on to say that separation of church and state in Canada has meant, traditionally, that the government will not interfere with religion.Feb 3, 2013
It works both ways, you can’t have your cake and eat it too
Since even Jewish stores are sued for their dress code in NYC, if the rules of gender separation are ruled discriminatory, even a private pool could run into legal issues here.
Just to be technical, a store is a public accommodation. A private pool belonging to Satmar would not be, so they could invite whomever they want. They could run into trouble if they open the pool to the paying public instead of holding it for the exclusive use of the Satmar sects.
Wouldn’t that be sects discrimination?
simple solution. Let them have some separate hours for the women, some separate hours for the men, and mixed hours. Should then be able to accommodate everyones needs.
Rkefrat: the problem is that since the civil rights movement “Separate but Equal” is frowned upon in the US, as they try to lump together gender separation and race separation.
GAW: Williamsburg is not exclusively Satmar, there are 2 Satmars in Williamsburg, and Satmar has less than zero interest in building a pool facility. More likely they’d oppose it. So your whole technical scenario is moot.
CA: The NYT didn’t mention that other AMERICAN cities have similar swimming accommodations for Muslims, as do American liberal universities. There’s a recent Tablet Magazine article about this. There’s no need for you to defend the Times.
“what should be an issue?”
That a pool would have a few hours a week of single sex swimming.
Both JCCs in the Bronx have that.
simple solution. Let them have some separate hours for the women, some separate hours for the men, and mixed hours. Should then be able to accommodate everyones needs.
That would either require longer hours (and more funding), or the availability for all individuals would be reduced.
And the Government does not need to (and can not) accommodate beliefs that can only be made by excluding others.
“what should be an issue?”
That a pool would have a few hours a week of single sex swimming.
Both JCCs in the Bronx have that.
JCC in the Bronx is a private pool, unlike the pool in Williamsburg which is run by the city
– the ability for all individuals would not be reduced. You’re enabling those who cannot use the pool without these hours to benefit. I did not say the government needs to accommodate women who want separate swimming. What I did say is that it would not be a violation of the separation of church and state. Nor is it discrimination based on gender since most of the time the pool is available to all. What I think would be fair would be to have the district where the pool is vote on how the schedule for the pool should be set up.
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1996, in United States v. Virginia, that the government may offer single gender public schools.
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1996, in United States v. Virginia, that the government may offer single gender public schools.
This would be a New York State law, not a federal law. States are allowed to have laws stricter than federal laws. “Alternate Lifestyles” are not protected under federal law, but they are under New York State law
This has nothing to do with alternative lifestyles.
You missed the point. States can have protections for various things that superseed federal law. They just cant have less protections
So it could be in Virginia such a school could be legal, but not legal in New York.
And According to The Mayor (NYC Law can Superseed NYS Law) if someone Identifies as a gender different than their anatomy, It is illegal in NYC to discrimate against them, So if a former Olympain decides to go to the williamsburg pool during the female hours, there is nothing anyone can do and it would be mixed swimming according to Halacha
Very unlikely to happen.
Actually DY, with liberals trying to ram their agendas, one never knows. But at this point it’s not a concern.
“JCC in the Bronx is a private pool, unlike the pool in Williamsburg which is run by the city”
The same civil rights laws regarding public accommodations apply.
CH: the problem is that the city is hyper-sensitive when it comes to these issues. They don’t want even a whiff of gender discrimination to taint its liberal front.
The same anti-religious laws regarding public accommodations apply.
GAW: Williamsburg is not exclusively Satmar, there are 2 Satmars in Williamsburg, and Satmar has less than zero interest in building a pool facility. More likely they’d oppose it. So your whole technical scenario is moot.
Please explain to me why Satmar (or Satmars, if you prefer) have no interest in building a pool, but feel the need to pressure politicians into creating separate hours so that the Satmar community can use a pool? I don’t understand; either they have use for a pool or they do not.
Personally, it is sad that you think the Chassidim in the area (Aharonis, Zalmanis, and other sects) couldn’t all get together and build something that could be used by all of them.
DY, you always crack me up!
SiDi™
“JCC in the Bronx is a private pool, unlike the pool in Williamsburg which is run by the city”
The same civil rights laws regarding public accommodations apply.
The JCC is a private place (Legally it might be called Semi-public ) and they are allowed to make rules that a public place cannot. They can charge for admission, they can say only members can use the pool and they can have seperate swimming hours
GAW: Willamsburg has approximately 70,000 frum Yidden ka”h. Let’s assume 70% is affiliated with either Satmar, and again let’s assume 100 women (most likely less) from various “streams” petitioned Hikind and perhaps other politicians to CONTINUE having separate female swim hours at a nearby city pool WHICH USES ALL OUR TAX DOLLARS to operate.
According to your logic, both Satmars and others, which are GROWING RELIGIOUS organizations in constant need of funds as they are building additional school buildings (and expanding existing ones) almost non stop — as well as adding Shuls and mikvaos — must “send out a memo” to ALL Williamsburg residents to cease and desist pressuring politicians as they will now build a pool that’ll be in use almost immediately for its members. And then the discrimination lawsuits against separate hours may follow in any case as Jewish Williamsburg now finds itself in the center of NYC “progressive” liberalism (and because it’s not just one Satmar that “owns” Williamsburg as mentioned above, they can’t simply establish it for Satmar members only). Especially since swimming year-round for the masses has always been frowned upon.
I don’t speak for Satmar at all, but basically the belief used to be that if swimming for exercise or rehab is recommended by a doctor, one should do so. Because of tznios concerns it wasn’t something actively encouraged for all. And unlike other Jewish communities, there is no “community center” to keep its members engaged, only wedding and Simcha halls usually in Cheder basements, which provide an important service and bring income for the Mosdos. In other words, they are not in business of providing “cultural” institutions.
And this is just another reason I prefer to live OOT with my own private swimming pool in my completely private, fenced and tree obscured yard.
No depending on government to supply our needs
And What would be wrong with having a “Y” in Williamsburg or similar. Perhaps they should persue such an avenue
Mammele – All you needed to say was that those who want a pool is a small minority of Satmar, and that small minority (who somehow have big political clout) has no money to create a pool, as the Satmar Organizations have better things to do with their money.
As this isn’t a big deal, even for Satmars, and will only affect a few people if the pool stops being gender segregated, I don’t think this is worth the time people are putting into it.
Your post does raise a good question though, and I don’t know the answer: Why do the Satmars, as communities, not provide “community centers” for their members? It would seem that these communities are most in need of such centers, as (mostly in Williamsburg) apartment dwellers.
CT lawyer: Good for you, bu this is an indoor pool used year round. Most people don’t even want their own pool for safety reasons.
ZD: perhaps, but until and IF that happens, don’t you think CONTINUING to accommodate women is a lot simpler and cheaper. Why should we be scared off by a few nay-sayers, which most likely will always find something to gripe about? Why shouldn’t we benefit a little from our tax dollars? For the most part we don’t use public schools or the cultural and recreational programs funded by the city, what’s the harm in having our voices heard for a change? Especially since this assertion that it violates the separation of church and state is hog-wash since it can benefit all – both religious and secular women. Sometimes men may be inconvenienced, sometimes children, sometimes adults etc. (they also have kid specific and adult specific hours) but why is the solution to therefore exclude religious women AT ALL TIMES? I know they are not barred by the city, but because of their beliefs practically speaking they will be excluded if their hours are cancelled.
GAW: sorry, I sometimes have a “long writing style”. Hope I didn’t bore you.
The short answer is that for the people that need the pool and have been doing so for years, it’s REALLY important; perhaps for medical reasons for some of them. And not much political clout is needed to petition Dov Hikind. I don’t think any local Williamsburg politicians or organizations were involved. (Williamsburg does not have frum politicians, so contacting Hikind who would likely be more understanding was logical.) And it’s the media that made a big fuss about this, it wasn’t such a big deal.
Mammale………
We have a bubble for the winter that makes the pool usable 12 months a year. I have no idea what safety reasons you write about. All of us in the family worked as lifeguards at summer camp over the years and are/were certified.
Mammele – A certain “Rabbi” got up and asked his Kehilah in public (paraphrasing):
“It used to be, that even thought there were laws, the politicians looked the other way from our group breaking the law. Why do certain people have to shine a light that we get away with what others don’t, and the government should leave us alone?”
This got distributed throughout mass media, and created a huge Chillul Hashem.
We have to ask ourselves the same question here. If we are “breaking the law”, is it worth a few people swimming (of all activities) and the likelihood of a Chillul Hashem? It is bad enough, with the recent NYC police scandal (another Frum Yid was arrested yesterday), that the Aino Yehudim believe that Yidden break the law, and the politicians turn a blind eye. Is this one worth it?
P.S. If there are medical reasons, that may be Doche Tznius concerns, AYLOR.
P.P.S. If it is “REALLY important”, there should be a fundraiser. It would be more important than all the collecting done for Satmar Birkur Cholim, no?
Oh, and for the record, we don’t swim in NYC public beaches either. A little accommodation would be nice.
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