Women of the Wall (WoW)

PBA,

You should have asked for a sandwich before enlightening her.

You’re completely missing the point. Those quotes make it clear that Anat wants all of Am Yisrael, including those who are not or not yet frum, to feel welcome at the Kotel, not that she wants the Kotel itself to be Reform headquarters.

Feminist

I’ll try, I mean it, I’ll really try hard to be civil.Thou their (your’s too?) goal APPARENTLY isn’t, a depraved in-your-face attitude, I’ll try to be courteous.

I find your first post most laughable. First you quote “As Women of the Wall, our central mission is to achieve the social and legal recognition of our right, as women, to wear prayer shawls…” Then you go on to say “Nothing in there about equality, integration…” Right on, it’s your special ‘right’ as a woman. Not to be equal, no. Yeah.

Next. “and read from the Torah collectively and out loud”. Sure thing, “Nothing in there about… or creating a spectacle”. Nope. Not at all.

Next. “at the Western Wall.”. But why?!? Couldn’t they do that in a bathroom? Why at the holiest site? Oh? Because they want to “feel” the kedusha. Sure. They dress (ok, undress) so prutzadig, most pictures of them won’t make it into the Yeshiva World, those boxes are pictured on the exposed portions of women’s upper arm, halachikly (ordained by God) to be covered. But sure, they’re seeking ‘kedusha’. Supposedly coming ‘closer’ to the God they’re so openly, unabashedly mocking.

Next.

Go on.

“tradition is most holy when it is varied and authentic”. Authentic. Yeah. I might add – Your “ritual” is most holy when accompanied by the reactions it INTENDED TO CREATE.

I really don’t have the time to continue. Let’s just say if one came into my home and spewed garbage, I’d be most upset. The Kosel is OUR’s, Our GOD’S HOME, OUR HOME, go spew your garbage elsewhere.

If anyone actually cares about the halachah of women wearing tefillin, it will be discussed in tomorrow’s Daf Yomi. It was an issue 3,000 years ago.

“There certainly is no halachic barrier for a woman in the woman’s section to wear a tallis.”

While there is absolutely no halachic question that a woman can wear tzitzit, there may be an issue if the woman is wearing a talit that looks like a man’s talit. I’ve seen Rabbi Yehuda Herzl Henkin quoted to that effect. The photographs I have seen of WOTW seem so show them in talitot that look like those of men. I don’t know why they don’t follow Rabbi Henkin who is a huge supporter of increased roles for women in Orthodox Judaism and is a posek that anyone could rely upon.

To those complaining about the mechitza issue: it is clear to me that WOW will never actually succeed in getting the mechitza removed, even temporarily. I do not see what bearing this has on their current activities. I will also repeat that the group does not include taking down the mechitza as a central goal within its mission statement.

Oh Shreck: if sarcasm and condescension are your attempt at civility, I’d hate to see you being rude. But to respond to each of your points:

First of all, no, I do not share the views and goals of Women of the Wall. I do not wear a tallis nor want to wear a tallis, and I do not count myself in a minyan.

Women of the Wall state that they want to wear taleisim and that they have a “right” to do so. This is not the same thing as proclaiming total equality and egalitarianism. You know what? Sometimes I show up for mincha and I’m the only woman there. It’s not common for women to attend mincha, but I do it anyway because I have just as much of a “right” to be there as any of the men. This must mean I want total equality! Next I’ll be demanding that I be allowed to daven from the amud!

As for creating a spectacle by reading from the Torah “collectively” and “out loud”– this certainly does not mean that they are yelling. In fact, I’m quite sure that the voice of the baalas koreh cannot be heard over the sounds of davening, song, and conversation. The Kotel is a busy and therefore noisy place. A woman reading from the Torah as part of a group of other women is not a spectacle unless bystanders decide to make it one.

As far as why Women of the Wall cannot take their prayers into the bathroom: if you’re so offended by them, why can’t you take YOUR prayers into the bathroom? You tell me why you’re so superior. You tell me that you have ruach hakodesh to know that Hashem doesn’t accept their prayers and wants to evict them from the Kotel. You tell me that you are blameless, flawless, without sin. You think they don’t dress in a tzanua manner? Maybe they don’t. I don’t know, I don’t spend my time looking at women to scrutinize what they are or aren’t wearing. But if they are in fact not tzanua? Well, no one is free from aveira, but one of the beautiful things about Yiddishkeit is that Hashem will accept our prayers anyway. You cannot tell me that someone who commits an aveira– which is to say, every single Jew– has no right to daven at the Kotel because he or she can’t possibly feel kedusha and is making a mockery of Hashem.

Conceited, arrogant, ignorant? Who knows? I am not personally acquainted with these women. Are you? Would you like me to make something up about you?

As far as “spewing garbage”…well, I hardly have the heart to continue. What ever happened to v’ahavta l’reyacha kamocha?

I am not asking you to agree with WOW’s activities. I have already said that I don’t personally agree either. I am just saying that sinat chinam will get us nowhere as a nation, and like it or not, WOW are a part of Am Yisrael. Mashiach will not come until we can ALL get along, even with those who do not behave as we do. Condemn their activities? Reiterate the halacha? Sure, as long as you do it politely and respectfully. A Jew should always have a kind word to say to another Jew, and certainly this should be the case if you want the percentage of kiruv successes to rise.

To those complaining about the mechitza issue: it is clear to me that WOW will never actually succeed in getting the mechitza removed, even temporarily. I do not see what bearing this has on their current activities. I will also repeat that the group does not include taking down the mechitza as a central goal within its mission statement.

It speaks to the their intent. Wouldn’t you agree?

I am so sick and tired of people saying that we must acceppt WOW because to “make Moshiiach come” and Veahavta Lreacha Komocha.

And besides, the purpose of the world is not to bring moshiach, it is to be oveid Hashem. So even if that meant that delaying moshiach, so be it.

But in any event, I fail to see how standing up for Hashem delays moshiach. That isn’t how it works.

I love being on the same side as Sam. It’s awesome.

:-))

Sounds good.

Charlie, actually we see in this Gemara that even according to the one that holds that Tefillin is not Zman Grama women didn’t put it on, besides for those exceptional cases.

You allowed Grylak’s article on another thread, so why not allow it here?

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-is-there-the-women-of-the-wall-group

Rav Moshe explicitly says it is assur, as I linked earlier. There isn’t “absolutely no halachic question”. “

Perhaps that is because when one is wearing Tefillin one is not permitted to do anything that is not b’kedusha (which is why men do not have to wear it ALL day, as is the ideal). A woman’s role, which primarily consists of being the aleres habayis and rearer of the new neshamos that she helps bring into the world, must of necessity get her hands dirty. She is touching things that while are of a holy endeavor, are nevertheless still found in dirty diapers, shmutz, and such, and therefore it would not be fitting for her to have a chiyuv to wear Tefillin, as at any time of the day, she could be called up immediately to fulfill that aspect of her role, the tafkid, I might add, for which she was designed by Hashem. The fact that some women are not content with that being the case, and who somehow feel they are being cheated out of the men’s chiyuv, is a sad commentary on what has happened to our society over the last 60 years.

I don’t believe women should be chattel, or belittled, or made to feel that our role in society is somehow less valuable than a man’s, but neither do I want to be a man, and in fact I am very grateful to be doing what I do, instead of dragging myself out of bed at 5 AM no matter what, to get to a minyan every day. For women who do not yet have the responsibilities of home and motherhood (or who disdain those responsibiities), I reiterate what I have always said – let them do the specific mitzvos and chiyuvim that they already have, properly, and then we’ll talk about the ones in which they have NO chiyuv.

I always learned btw, that while there is no chiyuv for a woman to be wearing Tefillin (b’tzniyus), there is no issur, either. She just does not get a s’char mitzvah for it like a man does, because she is not metzuvah.

jewishfeminist02 – Shouldn’t these women of the wall at least dress appropriatly when they’re at the Kosel? In the photos there seems to be a lack of tznius. Assumuning the women wearing talasim are married, isn’t it more important to cover their hair as per halacha than to wear a talis for which they are not obligated?

playtime,

Thank you truthsharer and jewishfeminist02 for being the only open-minded posters on this thread.

Ouch, you mean someone can only be open minded if they agree with you?

Oh Shreck !

+99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999…. #<>>error 047: Stack overflow error.#

I respectfully disagree, regarding the issue of Tznius:

??? ?????, ??? ??, ???? ??

???? ????? ????

??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????

“And your camp shall be holy, and He (Hashem) will not see among you Immodesty and turn away from you.”

This is from the Torah, not my judgement of anyone, irrespective of whether anyone does Aveiros or not.

Vilna Gaon:

????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ???????

“The Yetzer Hora is neutralized, in the case of men being engrossed in Torah study, and in the case of women by adhering to Tznius.”

Gaon Chassid MiVilna, Chapter 15, Note 21

“while there is no chiyuv for a woman to be wearing Tefillin (b’tzniyus), there is no issur”

And that is the conclusion that one gets from today’s gemara. It concludes the discussion with a machloket tanaim between Rabbi Yosei and Rabbi Shimon permitting, and Rabbi Yehudah prohibiting. In disputes between Rabbi Yosei and Rabbi Yehudah we pasken like Rabbi Yosei.

Rishonim bring up other issues and there is an opinion in the Yerushalmi that the sages objected to Michal Bat Shaul wearing tefillin, but it is difficult to prohibit women wearing tefillin based only on the Bavli.

And in any case we do not follow the Yerushalmi in Eretz Israel regarding tefillin. Anyone who disagrees should try putting on tefillin at the Kotel on Chol HaMoed and see what happens.

Regarding tzitzit, there just isn’t any source in Chazal to prohibit women wearing them.

Oomis, thank you, I think you write a lot clearer, much better.

Curiosity, thank you, too. (is that a line from me…?)

And to you truthsharer,

No, Oomis wrote clear, concise, tzum zach. Coming from a woman, she’s put it down really well.

What’s so “very dangerous to say that women should not do optional stuff”?

I’d say take their meshugas for instance. They’re coming to try and make you think they’re interested in doing “more”, Oh yeah. All the while disregarding the basic concepts of tznius. IN THE SAME ACT. That is the essence of ?? ??????, according to one explanation, because it will cause ??? ?????. If I’m the one making up the game, I can do as I see fit.

Now, of course I’m discussing where they’d be sincere about it, where they’re doing it totally the the Mitzvah, for the Kedusha, for HaShem’s sake. Oh Yeah! Totally! C’mon, face reality. As I wrote before, their obnoxious in-your-face untznius brazen pictures won’t make it into the Yeshiva World. FOR A REASON!

They’re not at all in it for the “kedusha”…And you know that.

Shaking a lulav for the mitzva’s sake will bring a woman closer to HaShem. Creating a matzav, a brazen spectacle, an affront to Yiddishkite, every month, at the place it hurts most, will not. Again, I suspect you know that too. (you do appear to be literate,, educated)

Shouldn’t a truthsharer be open-minded to some truth too?

BTW I happened to have a conversation recently with one of the co-founders of Women of the Wall. She is a very frum and very learned woman whose late husband was a big talmid chacham. She told me that the original goals of Women of the Wall were “tefillah, talit, and torah”: Women praying at the kotel, wearing a talit, and reading from a sefer torah. She told me that she is not sure from where the more recent emphasis on tefillin came, as it was not one of the original goals of the WOTW group. (She herself wears neither a talit nor tefillin but does participate in a women’s tefillah group.)

I don’t like repeating myself, but I guess I have to here. Not everyone paskens like Rav Moshe and I’ve given examples. I would not dispute someone who follows Rav Moshe, but you can not dispute the actions of someone who follows Rav Soloveitchik or Rav Henkin!

Yes, but I am asking you why you would cite the gemara as conclusive proof if you are aware of a machlokes. (Also, would you please give your citations; I have given mine.)

There is actually room to compromise here, but both sides will have to stop digging in their heels.

Excellent. What is your compromise suggestion?

tefillah, talit, and torah

So there primary goal is to strengthen female observance of challah, niddah and hadlakah and a secondary goal is to strengthen tefillah, Tallis and Torah observance. Well, their secondary goals seem ultimately pointless from my point of view, but at least their main agenda is to be mechazek those mitzvos that are essential to women.

Except the Sharansky compromise is mixed davening. Surely you won’t advocate mixed davening at the Kotel?

From the WOW website (I couldn’t make this stuff up myself):

Why Nashot Hakotel?

For other ROTFLOL and Kefirah-like statements, see the WOW website.