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If a mother tells her daughter to do something and that something is NOT against halacha, the daughter is obligated to do as her mother asks,out of Kibud Av v’Eim.
This is highly questionable. It is not at all clear that you are supposed to do something your parent wants when it does not directly affect the parent.
To oomis1105: Wow!! I need to disagree with you. Unfortunately we see in this society to many times where a parent gets upset when her children want to be more than her!! This is a grave misjudgment!!! What do we strive for in our lives?? We need to sit down and recalculate where we are going and what we are headed for?? I have no problem at all with any of my children who want to be more then me, On the contrary I AM VERY PROUD OF THEM!! I am never embarrassed of them only PROUD!! It doesn’t make me feel any less on the contrary I feel very good about it. Chas Veshalom, to think of the children who would want to be less than their parents….. Would you prefer that??
4 inches is definitely not too much, when 2 inches don’t cover the knees during certain activities, like she related to us.
Wow! i’m so impressed with all of you who are making changes.
it’s not so simple for daughter to not listen to mother, especially, when technically can be considered halachichally ok, at least in mother’s mind.
rabbeim always give ba’alei teshuvah advice as to how to approach their parents and deal with situations even when the kids are halachakially in the right. it’s much harder (or at least different) when mother is frum and “thinks” she’s right. have to deal it with chachma and delicately. as oomis said, best is respectfully have heart-to-heart talk. then, in other areas, be extra careful to show tremendous kibbud av v’em, and show that you still respect their opinions and want their advice.
why r u assuming guys won’t understand? u think guys r perfect and have no problems with tznius? (male and female tznius)
Thanx again for e/o whos replied on ths topic. perhaps there was a misunderstanding so i just wanted to clarify. I agree that if a person want to go lifnim meshuras hadin and be extra machmir and a parent disagrees Kibud Av Vaem goes first as that M’Deoraisa (of course ask your LOR) however that is not the question here although i still am not sure of the correct answer the question is if its a lack of tznius to wear such skirts although its 2″ I dont feel its tznius in all situations as well as other articles of clothing does Hilchos Tznius override Kibud Av Vaem? ps plz listen to the link i posted previously it is so powerful and had a tremendous effect on me Torahanytime.com and do a search on tznius i think its Rabbi Levin whos speaking
oomis1105:
“If a mother tells her daughter to do something and that something is NOT against halacha, the daughter is obligated to do as her mother asks,out of Kibud Av v’Eim… As long as the mother is not overes halacha, the daughter who disobeys her IS overes.”
Not necessarily. First of all, as pba pointed out, there are shitos that hold that one is not mechuyav to listen to a parent in anything that does not directly concern the parent.
Secondly, if a parent tells a child to do something against the halacha, it is not considered kibud av v’eim to listen to them. This applies to even a chumra in halacha, but not to a minhag for no reason. I would certainly say that wanting to wear a skirt 4 inches below the knee instead of 2 inches below the knee (to make sure the knee is not showing) is a chumra in halacha, so one would not be mechuyav to listen to one’s parents in this case.
However, I am by no means a possek, and all halacha li’maseh shailos should be directed to your LOR.
To listen to a free shiur on precisely this topic, go to http://www.ohrreuven.com/audio_library.php, click on “THIS YEARS NEW SHIURIM 5770-5771”, “Halacha” (not “Dvar Halacha”, that’s a different section), “Hilchos Kibud Av Vaem”, and finally “Laavor Al Divrei Torah”. Really, the shiur is not even 8 minutes long and well worth listening to.
guy-ocho:
“why r u assuming guys won’t understand?”
Because men simply do not have that same pull to look good as women do. It’s just not there. Just as women cannot understand why it is that us men have such a drive to look at women, we cannot possibly understand why they care so much about how they look.
mytake- I couldn’t agree more with you! I’m a huge fan of Gila Manolsons books, and strongly recommend them to anyone who feels they need a chizuk boost in tzinius.
(I found that her books had a much stonger impression on me then R’ Falks book- which was the primary tznius sefer tought in my school. R’ Falk sefer mainly focuses on halacha aspects, and i believe that to truly internalize tznius you need to hear more than just a list of rules….)
mytake- thnx 4 ur post- i really only have the 2nd ques b/c the ques was not if 2″ is ok but rather i am not finding 2″ ok b/c i dont find it to be tznius in all situations (at least for me) although we got a psak i dont feel its ok so its really only the 2nd question. mw13: thanx for posting the link to the shiur. I just finished listening to it and was a big help! It seems that if 2″ doesnt cover in all situations which at least i find it doesnt when wearing streight skirts it would seem that Tznius comes first. although i shud confirm I wanted someone to find somewhere in HaLACHA that answers the question so thank you!
Amazing.I just read these posts tonight & I am amazed BH at the insights that I have read here.
Last summer, if you remember, it was VERY HOT. Queen Elizabeth came from England here & went to visit “Ground Zero” A lot of the commentators remarked that even in the 110 degree weather that we had, the Queen still wore a hat & gloves. If you noticed any of the pictures, she also wore long sleeves and a closed neckline.
We who are all Bnos “Hamelach” the Ultimate KING, should always rememeber to dress in the way that will make a Kiddush Hashem, while walking, sitting, getting in and out of a car, bending down to pick something up, putting our children into their car seats etc. It is not only the length of the skirts, but also making sure that your shirt meets your skirt when you bend down. I was in a store one day as a young woman bent down to get something on a low shelf & her shirt & skirt did not meet. That is just as not Tzniusdik as a skirt that is just 2 inches below the knee & not 4. Also please make note of how form fitting your clothing might be. That also falls under the same umbrella of Tznius.
i spoke with my mother about dressing more tznius and wearing longer skirts and i wish i cud say that my mother was all for it and proud of me but this is not so. Help! my mother really isnt so happy with this and feels it will have a negative affect on shidduchim and boys wont want to go out with me. My brother agrees what should i do? i started wearing and buying longer skirts am i doing s/t wrong? isnt this a positive or do they have a point? theyre not saying to dress not tznius…I was so proud of myself but now i feel so horrible my brother said maybe im making a mistake…
Maybe explain to your mother that its important to you now, and you want your husband (IY”H) to be behind you in regard to the length of skirts and someone who wont agree to go out because your skirt length is too long is probably not the type of person you are looking for… Sorry if this was already posted.
I, (one very little person) say stick to your guns and respectfully try to explain (again) its importance to you. Hopefully, soon she will realize how much you want it and you will be able to do it with a full heart. Again, I’m one very little person. Hatzlacha!!
The other option I see is for you to get engaged and married ASAP to someone who feels the same way as you. (That was a bracha.)
I’ll tell you what helps me-
If I have a skirt thats too short, its too hard to just throw it away. So I put it in back of my closet and tell myself that I’m just not wearing it for now. Thats much easier to do. Eventually, either it will go out of style, or I’ll outgrow it, or just forget about it
just don’t make MAJOR changes do it in a slow progression
looking2grow: kol hakavod to you. you’re definitely doing the right thing. tell me, are you looking for someone similar to your brother or different (in hashkafa). it could be that they’re right – that you won’t be attracting certain boys, but it sounds like those are not the type you want to marry. by dressing totally tzniously (and hopefully, still attractively) what you’re doing is saying “yes” and opening yourself up to the type of boy you do want to marry. now, make sure that everyone who can find someone, knows what type of boy you do want. good luck! you’re definitely doing the right thing. it’s very hard to go in a different way from your family, even if it’s only in these areas. it can be very challenging. keep yourself surrounded by like-minded individuals, so you can keep “looking2grow”. i second kapusta’s brocha. 🙂
oh boy I know how hard this is for all of us girls!!! i know that many cant understand why….
I used to wear very fitted clothing and just just skirts. and then i went to seminary 🙂 You could be laughing, but i really changed. you have no idea what a strugle it is to wear a longer skirt than everyone else!! but you have to stop thinking what everyone thinks because that’s not how you want to live your life! it’s your life and you can let everyone else laugh, but dont let it stop you!!! Just IGNORE all the comments! stick to your goals and you’ll see that you’ll come a long way! g’luck!
If I have pants that are too short, I throw them out. I don’t even think about it at all, I just throw them out.
If I put them in the back of my closet, I might wear them accidentally one day.
popa_bar_abba: that’s really beuatifull, but your a guy….and short pants look pretty pathetic! so please do throw them out!
first of all,I’m so proud of all the girls and women who are working so hard on growing in this area , it really is a difficult nisayon for women. To mytake. maybe this will help you. i’m much older but when i was in sem in yerushalayim and short skirts were in back then too,i had one really long skirt (for the time) that i wore whenever i went to the kosel. after a while i started wearing it all the time becuz i never knew when i would want to go to the kosel and had my mother send me more . by the time i got home i wore only longer skirts becuz i got used to it and came to realize thar Hashem sees me everywhere not just at the kosel. (of course i knew that before but knowing and feeling are not the same) i remember getting comments about my long skirts from people in ny , but those are not the people who matter. years later after i was married and short skirts were no longer an issue, but i dressedd in a very stunning way. totally covered up but eyecatching in a beautiful way. i didn’t understand that this eye-catching loook wasn’t tzanua.until the following incident. My son was in grade 2 and was considered a very special student. his report cards were raves and of course i was very proud. one day i had to pick him up from yeshiva and i was all dressed up in the highly stylish wig (spiky and teased )and the leather jacket that was soo stylish etc. i was about to knock on the door of his classrooom when all of a sudden i realized that I didn’t look like the mother of that budding talmid chacham sitting in the classroom and i was embarrassed for his Rebbe to see me the way i looked. now remember , i looked beautiful and got no complaints from the society, i.e. my husband and family, but i realized there was something wrong with that look. it took moving to erets yisrael to get that style of dress out of my system. i actually gave away some of my gorgeous clothes becuz even though they weren’t too tight or short they were just too, too! i am proud to say that all these years later my son is a Baruch Hashem real Talmid Chacham and any time i’m tempted to dress a little too flamboyantly i say, but i don’t look like ________’s mother. (that’s why i still only have one earring in each ear.) So if you think about the kind of wife and mother you want to be maybe that will give you chizuk to dress the part!!!!. of course you can have beautiful things that you wear only for your husband without sharing them with the world
For “looking to grow”. I know a couple whose shidduch came about precisely becuz the girl decided to strengthen her tznius and take on something extra. one boy she went out with didn’t like the look, so he said no, but recommended the shidduch to someone else he knew and they are Baruch Hashem very happily married and working on their own family of budding talmidei chachamim and little tsniusdik girls. the right boy will davka want a girl who wears the skirts you want to wear. good luck to you all.
Looking to grow: I may not be your mother but I AM SO PROUD OF YOU!! You’ve really overcome alot of your Yetzer Hara!! Keep up the good work!!
mytake:
we had a man teaching us Tznuis, and hearing it from their prospective was VERY scary. He was a very chashuv man with a beard and all, and to hear how even he gets affected…wow! he was even crying!
i personaly always tuned out whenever we had a Rebbetzen teaching us Tznius. like whoope do! like i’m going to listen to them!
this was just the way i approached it…..
red head- We must’ve gone to the same seminary because I know the man that you are talking about. I was also very affected by what he said and so was the rest of my class.
Girls in high school are usually sheilded and the rebbetzins just say how beautiful tzniyus is and to be quite frank- at that age and with that argument- no one thinks its beautiful
But to hear a Rav get up in front of a class of girls and tell them what they do wrong and how it affects men…it scared alot of girls and they really wanted to do whats right
It is very nice and proper to care about tzinius, but let’s put thnigs in perspective. Chazal aks “how do women gain merit? ” They do not answer that merit is gained by ho long your skirt is, but how much you sacrifice so your husband and children can learn. Le’ts analyze ,and give each other chizuk about that, instead of spendig all this time on skirts !!!
minols – no one in minimizing the emphasis you should put in learning, but when i see someone’s knees, from a ‘good’ BY girl, and cant even tell you what i feel!!!! it’s not normal! I think that there should be MORE talk about this issue!
minols,
Let me perfectly honest with you. If women are not dressed with tsniut, it can make it much harder for us men to concentrate on our learning, even well after the fact.
goldenkint: Wow!! This is what I call using ur senses. It doesn’t say in the shulchan oruch that ur not allowed to wear a spiky shaitel, or a leather jacket, you simply used ur binah. I’m sooo amazed! I really think your son is such a great talmid chacham b/c of ur being tznua.
red head: Wow, that really touched me. A man crying to you? What an eye opener! And of course I give you TONS of credit for improving your way of getting dressed.
I feel humbled by those of you who brought such big karbonos for Hashem. May you have lots of brachos in this zechus!
This is highly questionable. It is not at all clear that you are supposed to do something your parent wants when it does not directly affect the parent.
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To Popa et al who disagree with me (which is fine with me, btw), Who are we to judge what “directly affects the parent?” Many parents are EXTREMELY affected directly when they are frum already, and their kids go even more right-wing (even if it is only in such an area of dress codes).
When their frum daughter suddenly feels that two-four inches or more below the knee, are not tzniusdig, it may cause concern to that parent that the child is becoming a “fanatic,” (though I personally believe four inches longer than knee length is reasonable, and I like it even longer, aesthetically). I use that expression, because it is the one that an acquaintance of mine said to me when describing her daughter upon her return from Seminary. The family has nothing of which to be ashamed in their religious hashkafa, but all of a sudden it is not “good enough” for the daughter. And that IS hurtful to a frum parent, whether or not you might agree.
Rashi specified in his explanation on the phrase of “Ish emo v’aviv tira-u” being followed by “V’es Shabsosai tishmoru,” that a person must always show respect and awe for his parents with ONE main exception, and that is if the parent asks him to do something contrary to the Torah, such as Chillul Shabbos. It does not say anything about listening to the parent, unless the inyan does not really directly affect the parent. In any case, we are not talking about Chillul Shabbos, but about a girl who wants to wear clothing much longer than usual, which is apparently embarrassing to the mom who also dresses b’tznius (unless she does not, in which case that is a different story and all bets are off).
A mamin, I have a reply to your comments, but I have decided that in the interest of not making it appear that I have something against people who want to grow religiously, that I will wisely refrain. Not everything people choose to do makes them, as you said, “more than” their parents. But they think it does, and therein lies the rub. In any case, I think children of frum parents have a Torah obligation to listen to them, if there is no religious contra-indication to doing so.
Thanx 4 the chizuk and Amen to all the berachos kapusta bina yesaira..! i wish e/o who needs it the same!!wow Goldenkeit: thanx so much for sharing what an inspiration! a maamin thanx i need that! binah yesaira thnx so much and Amen! although i am looking for s/o slightly differen than my brother i feel from a/o else that he really understands what im looking for however he still feels that this new way of dress is im not sure if this is the right way of saying it but may be “unattractive” to some future boy(s) that id go out with so the question is how do u look attractive but not attracting? i feel that you cant go wrong doing the right thing but i kind of hear what hes saying and he knows better than me cause he’s the boy although i still feel that i shouldnt swith back..thnx 4 the encouragement my take: B”H i feel that my new way of dress is portraying the real me and is “my type” and i dont think its a contradiction to the fact that yes my mother and brother maybe even more so my brother really do know what im looking for and i feel on the contrary some of my other clothing gave the wrong impression of who i really am. They just feel that there may be boys who may not want s/o who dresses in such a way (althogh they are right for me-but i guess maybe not?) but i feel that a boy who doesnt appreciate it isnt for me it sounds like most ppl here agree i just hope this is the right thing to do in such a situation. It really is best to ask Daas Torah but i really dont feel comfortable calling our Rav any ideas?
it sounds to me like you’re doing the right thing, but…. it’s very important to have da’as torah, for now and for the future. are you going to any shiurim and is there or do you know of a rebetzin that you respect/admire and can understand you and where you’re coming from? now is a great time to establish a relationship with a rebetzin, so when you’re married you have someone to ask questions to.
easiest time to establish a relationship is when you’re single. ask if you can help them on thursday night or erev shabbos? or if they have any time to talk? i’m close to 2 chashuve rebetzins and because i established the relationship when i was single, got close enough to them that they’ll take time to answer me, call me back, etc. even though they’re both so busy and don’t do that with everyone.
Good luck and choose someone whom you admire and who could understand you and has access to da’as torah. (like husband or family is close to gedolim or big people). look around. every community has some people who are really good at understanding things and giving good advice.
mytake – i’ve found having someone ask a rav for you doesn’t necessarily work in these areas, as to answer questions like these need to see person personally to really gauge and get a feel for who they are: answer could and should be different for different people.
oomis1105: I see I’ve hit a very touchy subject with you! I will say I didn’t mean the kids who come home from seminary who change or want to change? Maybe that’s temporary, unfortunately. I am discussing mature adults making life decisions, even after being married.I have no problem with my children ( Married or otherwise) who have grown in Yiddishkeit in Looks or otherwise, who are more than me. Again I reiterate I am EXTREMELY PROUD OF THEM!!
Binahyeseira: You have a great idea for Looking to grow. I think she should find a Rebetzin to talk to, even now before she gets married.I don’t know where she lives, but in Brooklyn, there is a famous Rebetzin , who is excellent, Rebetzin Dinah Fink.
binah yesaira: thanx 4 the advice BH i attend many shiurim but unfortunately i am not close w/any specific Rebbetzin although i wish i was. How do you gain a kesher w/ a Rebbetzin from scratch? where do i start? and how do i know what if they’re right person for me to ask?
first, ask few simpler questions after shiur – see if like how they answer you and see if like their hashkafa and way talk during shiur, if can be good match for you. then pick one. then, depending on you or your circumstances, can say: i have some questions, and was wondering when or if you have any time that i can call you or meet you. or can ask if you can help with kids or cooking for shabbos, etc. (this works well in eretz yisroel, don’t know how well it goes in ny. out of town could definitely work).
i was never the type to do this – but once heard a rav speak, and he said one should do this – so, i said to myself, okay, i’ll do it to your wife – it’s your own fault. other person – should have done it much sooner – never met her, but everyone told me that i’m very similar to her; once finally met her, we clicked.
if in end, you feel it’s not the right person, you didn’t lose out at all. anyways, sometimes different people are experts for different types of questions. one person i get more chinuch banim from. another more haskafic issues.
most rebbetzins who give shiurim would actually love to develop kesher with others. just may not have time. if that’s the case – be creative – how about walk her back to her car or where she lives, etc.
good luck! it’s scary, but soooo important. will make tremendous difference in your life.
also – very important – find someone who she, herself asks da’as torah – so you’re not just getting her own opinion. i’ve had many times the people i get advice from get back to me only after they got da’as torah, or else they’ve already asked this question for themselves. you want da’as torah, not just one woman’s opinion. if her husband, her father, or her rav is a possek and she gets advice from him, good person to ask.
binayesaira; wow thanks so much for your advice you sound right on target!thnx 4 sharing ur story its really encouraging thats gr8 that u made that step… i wish it was so easy for me to do the same btw i luv ur username – fits u well:) I like the sound of the first part asking questions at the end of the shiur thats a gr8 way to start but i would not feel comfortable offering to help cook for shabbos. I guess your from eretz yisroel?! i wish i was living there i love EY !! im from ny but anyways i think ill start like what u said asking general questions after the shiur and see how it goes..thanx 4 the advice its a really good start! also how do u know if the Rebbetzin will ask da’aas torah ? i would assume she would if shes not sure the rite way to deal with it..also do u think i should stick to asking one person or perhaps hear from a few ppl. i know with a Rav u shuldnt go around asking the same ques to a few Rabbanim but does the same hold true in this case?
looking2grow – thanks for all the compliments! 😉
you’re right about where i live.
sometimes can tell in the shiur (depends on the type) if they’re quoting a certain person a lot. or they’ll put in something like, “i’ve asked rav so-and-so” and he said. or i’ve heard, “i discussed this with my father” and father is a gadol or something.
can ask different questions to different people based on their shiur and see how they answer. wouldn’t ask big question to a bunch of people, but if can narrow it down to 2, might get different outlook on the situation. halachic issues – can’t shop around. but this seems like a hashkafic/halachic issue so need to find someone who can understand you and understand your family and be able to give you the appropriate advice. so, here, the asking of more than one person is your means of finding the right “rav” or “rebbetzin” for you.
bina yesaira: lets say they usually focus on one specific topic which they usually take from sources- not like the type that they need a halachic opinion on so asking Rav so and so wouldnt come up? also do you think it must be a Rebbetzin or just s/o who i look up to, think that their an amazing person, and they give shiurim that i enjoy? That make sense what you said about it being ok to ask more than 1 person to find someone right for me-thanks! id luv to hear ur thoughts and thanks 4 always responding!
I know it’s all been said already I just felt the urge to comment anyway…
I feel like a lot of people look at tznius as so much less than what it really is. Of course there’s the halacha, but that’s just the stepping stone to try to get you to feel tznius so that you can act tznius and be tznius, in all senses of the term. It’s hard to be a tznius person in your actions when your clothing is telling you that you’re not that type of person. It’s hard to believe that adding an inch to your skirt can help you feel like a better person but I’ve experienced it and I’m sure others can attest to the fact that it’s true. Even the dumbest and tiniest changes you make in your clothes makes a difference in your self perception.
I once learned (and I think it’s so true) that with tznius, if you just feel that for some reason, something may not be 100% right, YOU’RE PROBABLY RIGHT. Don’t doubt that little feeling inside of you that’s telling you that MAYBE there’s something wrong. It’s tough because although the halacha guidelines may seem so strict at times they feel SO vague. “Okay, I know I can’t wear tight clothes – but is this even tight? I shouldn’t wear something that makes me stand out too much – but please, I’m going to stand out if I DON’T wear this. Or, Come on, no one’s going to be looking at me when there are so many people dressed worse than me on the street.” etc etc etc. We paskin for ourselves every day when we get dressed. That one piece of advice has helped me decide not to wear something many a time. You have to listen for a little voice inside your head telling you “no”, and if it’s not there, then you know you’re good. If you do hear it, LISTEN TO IT. And that’s a must.
looking2grow – I’m sure your mother is an amazing person but that doesn’t mean that you can’t have more sensitivities than her in some areas. Don’t doubt that sensitivity that you have, because these sensitivities are your (and everybody’s) real key to tznius.
smile: So right. I whent out shopping and tried the CUTEST jumper. It was a bit too tight and too short. Boy, that was a BIG nisoyon for me! I tried making up excuses like, “I’ll lose TONS of weight”, and “Oh, it’s not that tight.” B”H, I didn’t buy it. But, it was real hard! My mother said I’ll find a prettier one in this zechus….
I hope those posters desires for growing in tznius become as contagious as the flu!
Everyone should read Smile66’s comment. Tznius is like tzedaka. Chazal say if a person says, “I’ll give this tzedaka so that my son should live”, he has done a complete mitzva, even though he has an ulterior motive. Why? Because the poor will benefit just the same. Same here. Even if you’re not really up to wearing the tznius levush, if you do so anyway, the men around you will benefit just as if you were. The purpose is served and your zechus is complete.
observanteen: I also had something like that recently… I found this really cute weekday dress that I loved because it was sophisticated and cute AND totally tznius too. It was a conservative color, good length, and it fit me well without being tight at all. Ecxept… it had this visible zipper going down the back a little lower than I would have liked. It took me a half an hour in the dressing room to realize that if I’m spending this much time deciding there must be something wrong. It was so sad…
msseeker: thanks! And that’s really interesting, I never thought about it that way. You almost forget how strong men’s yetzer haras are and that, even though it may seem unfair, it is our responsibility not to be their aveira. I would just like to add that although our tznius definitely affects men, it affects US even more. If we live our lives trying to dress tznius for everyone other than ourselves we’ve missed the point.
I always wonder about men’s Yetzer Hara and think unfortunately the most Tzniusdik women who are very pretty, attract more mens’ attention than non-Tzniusdik average looking women.
I looked out my window this Shabbos (I live near a Shul and a busy avenue with lots of people coming and going) and frankly the more Tzniusdik women who were just plain naturally georgeous (great figures, good complexions, nice sheitels, confident walks/poise, even the most conservative dressers), for sure turn more heads than the average, not Tzniusdik women.
How many men are really interested in another look at a not attractive, too heavy or too thin woman wearing a tight short outfit???
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