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Joseph – times have changed. now girls drive.
Our bubbes and zaidas lived in a world which didn’t require traveling more than a few blocks every day. We do.
Gamanit, I think it’s very safe to assume that of your many zeidas, a number of them drove a horse and buggy at least on occasion. While the bubbes did not.
DY, when travel was necessary, however frequent or infrequent it may have been, why was it always the zeida that drove it, and not the bubbe (when it wasn’t a third-party)?
And if the bubbe did need to travel when the zeida wasn’t available, why wouldn’t she mount the horse and ride off on her own?
In most famlies I know, when they’re both in the car, the husband drives.
Anyhow, you know better than to bring horseback riding as an example.
Even if she were sitting in the buggy and not on the horse. Can you imagine your bubbes mounting the horse and buggy, taking a seat on the buggy, and whipping the horse into action to ride over to the next town to visit her parents while the zeida was working?
My bubbes’ bubbes didn’t do that, but they did wear tzitzit. My zeidas as far as I know didn’t ride horses and motorcycles.
Lol. First off, as I said previously in a poor attempt at humor, if she cannot drive, she should walk to the polls.
In all seriousness, if a woman cannot be picked up, cannot drive, cannot (without R’ Moshe’s heter) be touched on public transportation, how can she leave the home?
Which perhaps is the point. But that is not really a halachic issue unless you take the chatam soffer to places he never meant to go.
From a website quoting R’ Sperber:
miamilawyer, the Gemora, Rambam and Shulchan Aruch say that a wife shouldn’t leave the home too much. (Rambam actually quantifies it as once or twice a month.)
daas yochid – both my parents switch off and ill probably do the same.
Joseph – why is that?
@joseph. Ok, so say that. That has largely been my point. There are multiple threads essentially about the same thing. Should women leave the home? These are not really halachic issues unless you agree that women should not leave the home, in which case the answer to all the questions is the same.
And also, that system does not make sense in a kollel system where the wife needs to earn the money. Rambam was a doctor, but yes, he had a traditional view.
Still, while we are on the topic, (I am being careful as this is a PG site) unlike some, Rambam was very liberal FOR HIS TIME on certain issues relating to women.
They had a certain tafkid because of the garden of eden. That was his view. But who knows what his view would have been had he lived today, because for his time, while he had a very conservative view of their role, he insisted that men not take advantage of that role.
Joseph- once you’re imagining you can let your imagination go wherever you want it to. As I said my family did not own horses. Generally speaking, in the countryside horse driven carts were driven by both men and women while in the city only men drove. This was mostly due to the fact that in any horse driven vehicle the driver sits on the outside of the vehicle thus in the public eye and getting muddy and filthy from the horses dung. The driver was also typically responsible for the general care of the horse. In the country any farmers wife would be muddy and taking care of animals either way. Any “better” woman wouldn’t subject herself to that, nor would her husband want her to. I think we both know that none of these points are applicable in a car. A driver is just as noticeable as a passenger and stays spic and span.
Gamanit, You might be describing the Christian folk, but even if that you aren’t accurate. Among our bubbes you can be sure the reason they didn’t ride horses had nothing to do with what you’re talking about, but rather because of the aforementioned Rambam and SA and other aspects of tznius our holy ancestors were stringent about. And you can be sure they didn’t go gallivanting as drivers on horse and buggies. Even in the “countryside”.
Joseph, I’m curious as to where you got your information as to what our blog ancestors did or didn’t do.
From the seforim hakedoshim.
Joseph- as lesschumras said I really don’t know where you’re getting your info from. Methinks it’s just off the top of your head. Either way, you did not address at all what the similarities are between horse and buggy and car.
Rav Roi Tamir, in ???? ??????, quotes Rav Chaim Kanievsky forbidding women from driving as it is a prohibition of Klei Gever.
Joseph, keli gever and keli isha are according to local custom. Tell me,do you use a mirror to shave, trim your beard or check if your head tefilin is positioned properly (Rav Chaim Brisker used a mirror for this and when told that the Divrei Chaim says that it is a shetut he replied that he would rather be a shoteh with tefillin than a Chassid without tefillin)?
Joseph: With all due respect to the Gadol HaDor, if that’s true, all it means is that R’ Chaim hasn’t stepped outside of Bnei Brak. Women drive. It’s obvious to anyone with eyes that women drive. It’s not Begged Ish.
Sam, women wear pants nowadays also. Would you also argue that pants are therefore no longer begged ish and frum women should wear pants?
Joseph – women driving is so different than them wearing pants. pants is pritzus its clear cut not what a girl should be wearing. driving is not pritzus its very okay for a girl to drive. its an activity. how will i get to college if i dont drive? have my boy friend come get me since his in my school? i dont think so.
Bottom line… Whoever is driving should drive safely without distractions.
Joseph- pants are not begged ish anymore. The reason frum women shouldn’t wear pants is because it’s not tznius. If a man would buy pants from the women’s dept. that would be begged isha, would it not? Either way if anything a car is klei isha being as there are more women that are licensed to drive then men (probably due to the larger percentage of men getting their licenses suspended due to reckless driving). You still did provide any logical reason why driving is less “tznius” than sitting in front passenger seat. I know you tend to run away from saying you’re wrong but I think you’ve got nothing here.
What’s the difference in regards to tznius between women wearing pants (from the women’s apparel section) and women driving?
Anyways, argue with Rav Chaim Kanievsky and Rav Shmuel Wosner, not me.
Women in LAKEWOOD Drive and I dont mean the Modern ones, I mean the wives of the Rosh Yeshivas and Kollel Averchim.
I doubt they would disobey Rav kanivesky
Most yeshivish Rosh Yeshiva’s rebbetzins don’t drive.
What’s the difference? The difference is that there is nothing inherently immodest about driving. If you believe that there is, please explain specifically what that would be, because I have absolutely no idea.
zahavasdad,
They wouldn’t be disobeying Rav Kanievsky. They would just be following their own rabbonim. That being said, I am skeptical that Rav Kanievsky would hold that women could halachically not drive nowadays. And if he does hold that, he is certainly a daas yochid on the matter.
Pants fit around the legs. Cars do not.
Joseph: I love your shtick, I do, but that comment about arguing with X rabbi or Y rabbi is silly. There are many who obviously permit women driving. You should argue with them. :-).
You don’t see Rebbetzins Kotler, Olshin, Schustal, Neuman, Salamon or Wachtfogel cruising around Lakewood.
Actually Joseph I HAVE seen Rebbetzen Neuman drive.
I saw Rav neuman get into the passenger seat and she got into the driver seat and drove him away
I have also seen one of their daughters drive as well
If Rav Kanievsky paskens that women shold not drive it may be because of his living in Bnei Beraq where buses and taxis pass by regularly. In Lakewood and other large Jewish areas this is not available.
The first question should be why are the women going out in the first place. As mentioned earlier, the Gemora, Rambam and Shulchan Aruch say they should not go out much. If it is important, it may be understandable. But to stam shpatzir outside for a leisurely ride is not understandable if it is avoidable.
Female Reform rabbis drive. Are those the women our wives and daughters should emulate?
Joseph, why is it that you refer to women drivers as “gallivanting”, “cruising around”, and going on “leisurely rides”? Would you ever characterize male drivers in this way? As far as I know, driving is not a common hobby or pleasure activity for anyone, male or female (we’re talking about driving normal cars, not race cars, which is obviously a different category altogether).
Also, how do you define “important”? Would you oppose a woman getting in her car to a friend’s house for a social visit, for instance?
Joseph I am surprised at your comment. The young women today especially in places like Lakewood are largely responsible for the parnossoh, the shopping and car pool so that their husbands should sit and learn. That is fine but if that means they need to drive…..! They dont even have time for a shpatzir. In the time of the gemorroh etc the men were responsible for Parnossoh as well as the learning.
Joseph: Your comparison of driving to pants is wrong. You said R’ Chaim said it’s a Begged Ish issue, not a Tznius issue. It’s clearly not Begged Ish. Wearing pants probably isn’t either. That doesn’t make it Muttar. It’s not permitted for women to wear pants. But they’re not violating Begged Ish when they do it.
jf02, sure I’d characterize male drivers as gallivanting when applicable. I didn’t characterize all female driving like that, I specifically referred to the times it’s applicable. Though the issue mentioned from the Shulchan Aruch is applicable to females and makes their public gallivanting more problematic than that of males.
As far as important, in the context of the aforementioned Shulchan Aruch, it would mean any unavoidable travel.
etzhar, See above regarding important. Limud Torah is important. And if it requires the wife to go outside in public as a result, it almost surely would qualify for the limited times the Halacha (above mentioned S”A) permits a wife to go out.
Sam, you didn’t answer the question. Namely, how is a frum woman wearing pants designed for women more of a tznius problem than a woman driving?
Also note that if a woman drives, and has a car at her disposal, she will naturally be “out and about” traveling more frequently than if her travel were limited to traveling with her husband or public/paid transportation. And you then run into more instances of unnecessary travel that the Shulchan Aruch says not to do.
Joseph is such a Tzadick, He is more frum than Rav Neuman. He even knows Shulchan Aruch better than he does
joseph – wearing pants is an aveirah because of a lack of tznius. driving is 100% muttar. your a anti feminist and most people here arent so give up. There are plenty of rabbi wives who drive.
As far as important, in the context of the aforementioned Shulchan Aruch, it would mean any unavoidable travel.
Says you. As you’ve already shown yourself to be a Chassid Shote, I would say that others, including Chazal, would say differently.
You say not? That’s your opinion as an open orthodox adherent, but the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam says what was stated. Rambam gives an example of what is permitted travel by saying she should be permitted to visit her parents once a month.
Joseph – please bring up the pasuk.
Joseph-
Who says that visiting her parents once a month is a maximum? Perhaps its directed to the husband as a minimum to make sure he doesnt prevent it entirely?
I find it interesting that after Joseph makes the statement “You don’t see Rebbetzins Kotler, Olshin, Schustal, Neuman, Salamon or Wachtfogel cruising around Lakewood.”
and to which zahavasdad responds with an opposing fact that directly contradicts his statement
“Actually Joseph I HAVE seen Rebbetzen Neuman drive. I saw Rav neuman get into the passenger seat and she got into the driver seat and drove him away”
that Joseph doesnt address the obvious contradiction between his assertion and ZDs eyewitness account.
???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???????. ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????. ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ????????? ??? ?????? ?? ??. ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????. ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???????. ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????. ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????:
“Rambam rules, and Shulchan Aruch paskens as such l’halacha, that a woman shouldn’t go outside muc”
They also both rule that a woman can read Megillat Esther for a man. Should I have my wife read it for me next Purim — at home?
“?? ????? ?? ??? ?????! And thats a Gemara! “
ROTF!!! It isn’t a Gemara it is a pasuk in Tehillim. And it is clearly referring to a non-Jewish woman.
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