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intellegent:
whether women should drive or not. you seemed to be saying no, and then turned around and clarified. If you were refering to something else, as we agree, you were not clear, and I apologize.
I think the quote is refering to free time avalible (more now) as opposed to “Kol Kavod” being due to “the times” vs. derech bas yisroel. “Kol Kavod” is a Hanhaga that does not change with the times. What is considered “respectful” (and a husband MUST be respectful to his wife) does change with the person (as per expectations).
Reminds me of what someone else posted a while back (don’t remember who):
“The man is the head of the house, but the woman is the neck. And she can turn the head any way she wants.”
Whenever I wonder how our cousins, bnei yishmael in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan can be so extreme in their customs, I come to Yeshiva World and realize that some of us are only a step or two away from that.
For the life of me, I can’t understand this thread. I understand the original post as a sociological question about how some communities can have such rules. But to see that so many people here take it seriously as having any possible relevence to halacha lema’aseh is baffling.
I did notice that a number of posters asked about the consistency of kollel and women staying at home. None of the usual gang of kannaim here bothered to answer.
When the dd’s of the world start making letzonas and chozek of the Acheinu Bnei Yisroel for keeping tznius as perscribed by our Rabbonim, by calling us “extremists”, “Taliban”, “Yishmaelim”, “frummies”, etc. etc. we stand up proudly and say “Yes, we do still have emunas chachomim.”
Zalman, Yasher Koach for that beautiful Torah! All those Gemora’s, Poiskim, Meforshim.
intellegent, Thank you for your sane comments.
dd, It is truly disgusting that someone who claims to be a Jew would denigrate Bnei Torah who uphold tznius with irresponsible terms like yishmaelim, frummies, taliban, extremist, etc. You truly need to do some introspection. Yes, it very much does have relevance halacha lmaaisa, your inability to understand it not withstanding.
Rabbosai, the point of all the Shulchon Orach and Rambam and the Gemora’s is not that ladies cannot go out. If there is a tachlis and they must go out, they can. Even if they have a valid reason to go out every day. But they must minimize it to the times that it is a necessity and not stam to go out.
The YWN blogs are getting a wide reputation of having hard kanoim (zealots). This topic brings out the real hardliners.
As a matter of fact, religious zealotry is ascendant worldwide and we are not immune to this trend.
Chasidic customs that for generations were implemented in a very civilized way are now getting into the wrong hands.
And I do notice a pattern that many of the most zealous in the area of Tznius are very Meikel (lenient) in areas of Choshen Mishpat (interpersonal relationships).
When the “The Big One”‘s of the world start making letzonas and chozek of the Acheinu Bnei Yisroel for Deciding that anyone who is not like them is a rosha, by calling us “extremists”, “Taliban”, “Yishmaelim”, “going to Gehennom”, etc. etc. we stand up proudly and say “Yes, we do still have emunas chachomim. We do not make up our own halachas based on our feelings or the latest chumrah trend, we ask our Rav.”
Sorry, couldn’t help myself, even though I try not to respond to the flamer/troll.
Josh: Apparently you prefer the hate-mongering YU’niks who have a dime a dozen blogs who’s entire geshmak in living is to attack Raabonim, Gedolim and plain ordinary Torah observant Yidden as well as various chumros etc. The fact of the matter is those Jews who are stringent with tznios are also stringent with Choshen Mishpat as well.
gavra_at_work: When left-of-center people like yourself try to shut up anyone who they disagree with, like you did in a previous thread telling someone to not post anything in the thread after you offered your diatribe, you discredit yourself and your entire left-of-center philosophy.
No one here, not a single poster, said every Jewish woman must stop driving. Not one. Its the mo types that cannot tolerate that there are Kehilos Kedoshim that uphold these lofty standards as per the directives of their Gedolim.
More bashing of YU.
If it were not for YU, there would be tens of thousands that would be lost to Torah Judaism.
When I said above “most zealous in the area of Tznius” I was referring to those who take it upon themselves to enforce Tznius on others, and those who adopt extreme levels to call attention to themselves. There is widespread agreement in Orthodox Jewish circles that religious enforcement in inappropriate nowadays.
josh, you are correct about that in the sense that “if it were not for YU, there would be tens of thousands that would be lost to Torah Judaism” in that many of those Yidden would not be frum at all, and YU is a much better alternative to being frei. Where you are not correct is that halacha itself requires that halacha be enforced. I don’t know whatever gave you the idea that “there is widespread agreement in Orthodox Jewish circles” otherwise. As I said, halacha itself requires that it be enforced. I have no idea what you mean “those who adopt extreme levels” but kol hakovod to those that adapt extreme levels of tznius for themselves. May many more do so as well. Those who are on the madreiga on maintaining extreme levels of tznius are a zchus and an encouragement for the rest of us. More power to them and may we all pick up a little bit from them. It is an aveira gamur when people mock those who adapt chumros. I am tired of those in the mo crowd (and there is no other way to put it) that say there is too many chumras, etc.
ujm: Try this. Go to your nearest Charedi Torah leader and tell him you want to form a Tznius Patrol to attack local women not dressed properly. If you are a womean, also tell him you want to start wearing a Burqa. If you are a man tell him you want your wife in a Burqa.
josh, i’m not sure where you’re trying to go with that, but that is as nonsensical as going to your nearest mo leader and telling him you want to form a committee to attack all women who don’t utilize mixed swimming pools. that scenerio and the one you described are as equally unlikely either to be suggested or to be practiced. actually you’re scenario is far more unlikely. what you describe at best sounds like the type of story peddled by anti-semitic rags of the nature of haaretz and ynet when they are seeking an avenue to attack chareidim. it can’t even be described as an exaggeration, as it doesn’t happen anywhere but in their hate-filled minds.
Everyone should follow their Daas Torah. If their rabbonim permit the wives to drive, then it is okay for them to drive. If their rabbonim do not permit the women to drive, then they should not drive.
Everyone ought to respect each other’s rabbonim. Live and let live.
I don’t want this to come out the wrong way but I want to make my point. Do I need my husbands Rabbis permission to wash my face in the morning? Or to put milk on my Cheerios? Why does every thing in life need to be dictated to us by the Rabbis? What is this world coming to? Israel is on the verge of distraction by Irans nuclear program, America’s morals are swiftly sinking lower and lower almost into oblivion, we are in the verge of a financial crisis, so many other things are going on, but here you are worried about whether or not women are ” allowed” to drive? Is it untsnius to cough in public, lest a man may turn his hea in response to the sound. I feel like we are slowly but surely aligning ourselves with the Saudis and I’m embarrassed to read posts like this one above.
In Williamsburg the traffic moves because women arn’t driving.
Everyone ought to ne respect each other’s rabbonim. Live and let live.
That’s a preeeeeeeeeeeeetty different tune than the one you usually sing…
MorahRach: You most certainly do need your Rabbi’s input if your public actions are in accordance with what is expected of a Bas Yisroel.
I know that Chasidishe women everywhere and Chareidi (including Litvish) women in Eretz Yisroel do not drive. But even though that is the rule among all the major groups, are there exceptions? Are there a few Chasidisus or Chareidishe kehillos that do permit some or all of their women to drive?
Also, is there a tznius or other prohibition for a woman to sit in the front passenger seat of a car being driven by a non-relative male? What if she is married (to someone else)?
Iced,
I don’t if its assur or not, however in some circles it’s deemed inappropriate.
Iced, both things, non-males driving and sitting in the front, are pirtzos of tznius whether your Chassidishe or not.
i think it shouldn’t be allowed at all, I mean how many women do you know that actually can drive?
and if we ban them, we can say for sure that men are the better and safer drivers
Iced, both things, non-males driving and sitting in the front, are pirtzos of tznius whether your Chassidishe or not.
So I guess its Prizus for women to drive, but not Prizus for them to take the bus or Subway
Iced, both things, non-males driving and sitting in the front, are pirtzos of tznius whether your Chassidishe or not.
It’s not tznua for a woman to sit in the front ever? Even if her husband is driving? Based on what? Where did you come up with this?
takah, I base it on the first rule of tznius: don’t show yourself off in public.
Loyal Jew -“Iced, both things, non-males driving and sitting in the front, are pirtzos of tznius whether your Chassidishe or not.”
I know some Litvishe Farfrumta guys and it’s not just a few – some even Chashuv that don’t drive, but have their wives drive for them. Don’t ask me why they hold like this, but it has to do with their Torah outlook/Tzinus Hashkafa.
The wife of the R’Y of Lakewood drives, I saw it with my own two eyes and he went into the passenger side
The wife of the R’Y of Lakewood drives, I saw it with my own two eyes and he went into the passenger side
I guess, according to Loyal Jew (or whatever he’s calling himself these days), the R”Y of Lakewood isn’t familiar with the proper comportment of a Jewish woman vis-a-vis tznius. 🙂
The Wolf
(rolling eyes) well if lakewood is doing it, it must be ok…(another eye-roll for good measure)
Loyal Jew:
takah, I base it on the first rule of tznius: don’t show yourself off in public.
When you can quote a real source, not something you made up, then we’ll talk.
Driving is hardly “showing yourself off in public.” Do you hold that women should never leave the home? Should they never go to shule? How should a woman work to support her husband in kollel if she can’t drive – should her husband miss learning time so he can drive her around? Should she waste tuition money on taxis?
zahavasdad -“The wife of the R’Y of Lakewood drives, I saw it with my own two eyes and he went into the passenger side”
Yes, those 4 are some of the ones I was talking about, but it’s beyond me what’s wrong if a man drives. I know a Chashuv RY who drives himself.
Wolf -“I guess, according to Loyal Jew (or whatever he’s calling himself these days), the R”Y of Lakewood isn’t familiar with the proper comportment of a Jewish woman vis-a-vis tznius.”
How do you know what he (LJ) holds? Maybe he holds Elu V’elu?
As far as I’m concerned, whether a man or a woman is allowed to drive is not Halacha. This is called a Chumra. If you want to have Chumros -this is fine, just Don’t push them on others!
Rav Wosner says mentions in a psak that Driving is like “????? ?????” which is asur.
As we find by Rivka emainu that she was a tzanua when traveling with Eliezer…
Although there might be nothing unmodest about driving a car, a vehicle is definitely a man’s domain. (the same way a moped, scooter, bike, etc. is)
Bottom line, tzniyus is required at all times and even when riding a car as a passenger (getting in and out…)
It boils down to Kol kevuda bas melech penimah!
There’s a time and place for everything!
I dont know why the Rebbetzin drove that day, It was from a Simcha and it could simply be that after the simcha she drove the car and dropped off the Rav at the Yeshiva along with his sons (Who were also in the car in the back seat) and then she was going to take the car home
I am confused at the issue here. There is no halachic reason women should not drive.
How do you know what he (LJ) holds? Maybe he holds Elu V’elu?
I don’t think so. His statement sounded pretty absolute to me.
Nonetheless, if I’m wrong and he doesn’t hold that it’s an absolute violation of tznius for a woman to drive or sit in front, I’ll be more than happy to retract.
The Wolf
Rambam rules, and Shulchan Aruch paskens as such l’halacha, that a woman shouldn’t go outside much. He rules that she should be allowed to go out a couple times a month to visit her parents or such.
Now I know we are more meikel these days (due to yeridos hadoros). But the concept is certainly halachicly applicable.
What a fun trip down (crazy) memory lane.
I drive to work before dawn, so its hard to see me. Totally tzanua.
But the concept is certainly halachicly applicable.
Fine – go tell all the kollel wives they’re only allowed outside a couple times a month. How long until the entire system collapses because women can’t support their learning husbands?
takah, the system wouldn’t collapse if the inlaws support the learning husband as required. That would solve the driving problem, the going to college problem, etc. But no, that would get in the way of “retirement,” vacations, and all the rest.
I love how some seem to know the Halacha better than Rav Yisroel Neuman , I am sure he knows S”A also and his wife drives
That’s why I said yeridos hadoros created a shas hadchak where it is unrealistic today to expect us to follow the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch to the tee on this issue, so the Rabbonim gave a heter for that. Nevertheless we must recognize and be cognizant of what the Shulchan Aruch paskens and even if we cannot follow it precisely we should strive to come as close as possible to what the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam pasken.
<bump>
It is 100% okay for girls to drive. Why its better to get a ride by a guy and talk to him instead?
She could take public transportation.
Joseph – and meet a guy on the public transportation? i dont think so.
How did your bubbes manage in Warsaw, Vilna, Budapest, Vienna, Frankfurt, Lemberg, Munkatch, Berditchiv, etc.?
Joseph-
How did your bubbes (and zeides) manage without
Electricity
Refrigerators
Freezers
Penicillin
just to name a few.
Unless you’re willing to give those up, (along with any other modern convenience of the last 150 years) your comparison is dishonest.
On the other hand if you truly believe that we should live as our ancestors did without any modern conveniences,(like the internet) then i guess we wont be seeing you around these parts anymore.
Dont let the door hit you on the way out.
adocs, your Zeidas drove horse and buggies. Your Bubbes, somehow, managed without driving a horse and buggy.
Joseph – please stop being anti feminism in a not kosher way.
Joseph- my zeides did not drive horses and buggies. What, you think they were wagon drivers? They either had a wagon driver drive them, or walked. They also used public transit. None of them owned a horse. I did have great-great-grandparents that had a Ford Model-T. I do not know whether anyone other than the car owner was ever allowed to drive it, male or female.
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